Diarrhea-Non-Life Threatening

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

We can’t win for losing I feel like. This just happened. Not sure if it’s the pancur working or not. He was sitting high up when he let this go, that’s why it’s splattered like it is. But, he’s not had any blood in his poop all day, until now. I got the f10sc cleaner in yesterday, diluted it as stated and cleaned down his critter nation cage and wiped it back down. Could it be that?

Hi HanksMom:
My usual disclaimer is that I am not a Veterinarian and my comments are my personal opinions only and not as a Veterinary Professional. Also, as always, I would recommend that medical conditions in our Squirrels that have a questionable diagnosis and/or no available definitive means for home treatment are best addressed by a Veterinarian. I know that this was impossible when Hank's issues were first presented on TSB. If Veterinary care might now be a possibility, I would strongly encourage you to pursue that. Along with Veterinary care would be facilitation of another Fecal Flotation Test! If, as is most often the case with addressing medical issues with our Squirrels; Veterinary care is still not an option; we can discuss the issues further on the Open Board and hopefully some better understanding and overall benefit for Hank can be forthcoming.

First off, I would like to suggest that you try to determine if the red colored "stuff" is actually blood and not something that is colored red but is not blood. One way to get an idea as whether of not the red material is blood is to put a drop of Hydrogen Peroxide onto the red material. If this is blood, some frothing will usually occur as a substance in red blood cells called catalase will act to break down the hydrogen peroxide into oxygen and water and a frothing occurs while that is happening. Red Blood cells have plenty of catalase but so do many other cells in animals and plants but blood does have a quite a pronounced frothing when in contact with hydrogen peroxide. IF there is NO apparent reaction between the red material and hydrogen peroxide, the red may be something that Hank ate.

Panacur itself wouldn't ordinarily cause bleeding and it was yesterday, before you redosed the Panacur that you first noticed what appeared to be blood in Hank's stool. Certainly parasites can cause intestinal bleeding as they may cause significant damage to the intestinal lining. It is not unusual when using a "de-wormer" for worms, that there may be some bleed during for a day or so. I cannot comment on whether or not this would be any more likely with treatment of Giardia with Panacur but the presence of Giardia does NOT often cause blood to be seen in the stool but it can especially with worsening diarrhea (the stool in this recent photo looks to be watery stool and apparently different from the loose stools reported before). Coccidia can also cause blood to be seen in the stool and not having enough actual experience to say this definitively; I believe that Coccidia is somewhat more likely to cause blood in the stool than Giardia and again, it is not common with Giardia!

It may be that Hank has other parasites that are causing blood to be seen in the stool.

If Hank has just started to have watery stools, as opposed to what the soft stools you have mentioned in the past; this may, even with the Bene-Bac; what is termed an Antibiotic Associated Diarrhea. This results from a disturbed gut microbiome and is what is results from problems with the disturbed gut bacteria being able to break down some non-adsorbed carbohydrates and the presence of these carbohydrates in the intestine draws in water and diarrhea results. Another concern that should be mentioned as a POSSIBILITY (not probability!) in light of Hank's recent use of antibiotics is Clostridium Difficile Colitis (a colitis an inflammation of the large bowel). This can develop from use of almost any antibiotic including the sulfa drugs and can cause diarrhea often with blood and can cause many other problems. There is a laboratory test for this but not a home test. Hopefully, Hank is still behaving normally as normal activity, appetite and hydration are very good signs.

As far as the F10sc being a factor; I cannot answer that as I am not familiar with this but I did take a look at the manufacturer's website after you mentioned ordering this and it seem relatively non-toxic from what was described and further; it would seem that Hank would have very little likelihood if any direct contact with this anyway.

Please keep on with the updates. If watery diarrhea continues, maintaining adequate hydration will be more of an issue!

I do hope for the expeditious resolution of Hank's problems and I am optimistic about this occurring! Hopefully no more blood in Hank's stool! Please keep on with the updates!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

How is Hank doing?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

How is Hank doing?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

He’s still being his sweet crazy self! This is him this morning playing around while I’m getting ready for work. The other picture is of his morning stool. This is how it is and as that passes through, is when we have the very soft to diarrhea stool as the spot shown. But, he’s still active and running on me like I’m his own personal tree!

[Mel1959]

I’m gonna just pop in here and mention that if the loose and sometimes bloody stool is the result of a disturbed gut microbiome and not a parasite I will share what my vet Dr. Emerson did with my dwarf squirrel when he had loose, bloody stool. She gathered some poop from a healthy squirrel and made “poop soup” and fed it to Joey. I know there is a scientific term for this procedure, but I don’t know it. Regardless, this seemed to do the trick. I realize that unless you have access to a healthy squirrel this may be impossible, but I thought I’d put it out there, as it seems you have tried countless other options without significant results.

[hanksmom]

I’m gonna just pop in here and mention that if the loose and sometimes bloody stool is the result of a disturbed gut microbiome and not a parasite I will share what my vet Dr. Emerson did with my dwarf squirrel when he had loose, bloody stool. She gathered some poop from a healthy squirrel and made “poop soup” and fed it to Joey. I know there is a scientific term for this procedure, but I don’t know it. Regardless, this seemed to do the trick. I realize that unless you have access to a healthy squirrel this may be impossible, but I thought I’d put it out there, as it seems you have tried countless other options without significant results.

That is definitely something I have never heard before, but makes a lot of sense!!! Thank you for your response!! We have been dealing with this since the end of January. He’s been on anything and everything imaginable. I’m sure his tummy is out of whack from everything we have tried. The first time in about over a month he’s not had any medicines was the 7 day stent after the Toltrazuril. The bloody diarrhea is a first. However, he was sitting up high when he released himself and that’s why it’s splattered! He’s been active, eating, drinking, urine looks good, no blood etc.
I wish I had a vet that would agree to see him, we do not have any exotic vets in my area. I have recently found out that it is legal to have one, but you may need a permit from the department of agriculture….

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

If Hank has just started to have watery stools, as opposed to what the soft stools you have mentioned in the past; this may, even with the Bene-Bac; what is termed an Antibiotic Associated Diarrhea. This results from a disturbed gut microbiome and is what is results from problems with the disturbed gut bacteria being able to break down some non-adsorbed carbohydrates and the presence of these carbohydrates in the intestine draws in water and diarrhea results.

Unfortunately, I am plagued by typophilia! I often type on my small cell phone from work and and my clumsy fingers frequently fail me!

What I meant to say in the above paragraph is that a course of antibiotics oftentimes affects the gut microbiome (the normal and often helpful bacteria in the intestine) and some normal bacteria in the gut are killed or even entire bacterial species wiped out and the normal balance between the many different bacteria in the gut is also disturbed! Antibiotic Associated Diarrhea results from the disturbed intestinal microbiome being UNable to effectively breakdown some non-aBsorbed carbohydrates and the presence of these carbohydrates act to draw water into the intestine and diarrhea results (this type of diarrhea is termed an osmotic diarrhea)!

He’s still being his sweet crazy self! This is him this morning playing around while I’m getting ready for work. The other picture is of his morning stool. This is how it is and as that passes through, is when we have the very soft to diarrhea stool as the spot shown. But, he’s still active and running on me like I’m his own personal tree!

Hi Hank's Mom and thanks for the update and thanks for the photo of Hank! He's a handsome little guy! I'm glad that Hank is still behaving normally! Again, this is a very good sign! Has there been any more blood or the appearance of what may be blood in Hank's stool today? Were you able to try the hydrogen peroxide suggestion on the red "stuff" that appeared to be blood on yesterday's stooling? As mentioned, this is NOT a definitive test for blood but IF there was NO frothing of the "red stuff," this would be suggestive of this not being blood and may be something else that Hank may have ingested.

Please keep on with the updates!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I’m gonna just pop in here and mention that if the loose and sometimes bloody stool is the result of a disturbed gut microbiome and not a parasite I will share what my vet Dr. Emerson did with my dwarf squirrel when he had loose, bloody stool. She gathered some poop from a healthy squirrel and made “poop soup” and fed it to Joey. I know there is a scientific term for this procedure, but I don’t know it. Regardless, this seemed to do the trick. I realize that unless you have access to a healthy squirrel this may be impossible, but I thought I’d put it out there, as it seems you have tried countless other options without significant results.

Hi Mel and thanks for you post! This procedure is called a Fecal Transplant and it has even been done with humans but in a "slightly" modified manner than you describe!

Please forgive me for "popping in on your pop in;" to add a caveat! There are concerns with doing this procedure as the stool from the donor should be examined and tested extensively before use as parasites may be present even in apparently healthy potential fecal donors and as an example; two of Hank's proposed possibilities for causing his foul smelling stools are Coccidia and/or Giardia and both of those (and other intestinal parasites as well) can be present without any abnormal signs being noticed! Most likely, Dr. E knew definitively that the donor Squirrel's stool was normal before Joey was given his appetizer!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Unfortunately, I am plagued by typophilia! I often type on my small cell phone from work and and my clumsy fingers frequently fail me!

What I meant to say in the above paragraph is that a course of antibiotics oftentimes affects the gut microbiome (the normal and often helpful bacteria in the intestine) and some normal bacteria in the gut are killed or even entire bacterial species wiped out and the normal balance between the many different bacteria in the gut is also disturbed! Antibiotic Associated Diarrhea results from the disturbed intestinal microbiome being UNable to effectively breakdown some non-aBsorbed carbohydrates and the presence of these carbohydrates act to draw water into the intestine and diarrhea results (this type of diarrhea is termed an osmotic diarrhea)!

This is what I am starting to wonder. He started his first round of meds on Jan 29, and has been on something pretty much every day since! He had his 7 day break from meds after the toltra and now started Pancur yesterday. His little gut may be all out of whack. I gave him his Bene Bac on the 5th, after not giving it to him for a few days.

Hi Hank's Mom and thanks for the update and thanks for the photo of Hank! He's a handsome little guy! I'm glad that Hank is still behaving normally! Again, this is a very good sign! Has there been any more blood or the appearance of what may be blood in Hank's stool today? Were you able to try the hydrogen peroxide suggestion on the red "stuff" that appeared to be blood on yesterday's stooling? As mentioned, this is NOT a definitive test for blood but IF there was NO frothing of the "red stuff," this would be suggestive of this not being blood and may be something else that Hank may have ingested.

Please keep on with the updates!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thank you!! He knows he's a big deal lol!! I did not notice any blood in the morning stool, however it was more formed than usual. When i get home from work, I will let him out and see if we have the bloody issue again and will try the peroxide! I just need to add to only the blood, correct

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I did not notice any blood in the morning stool, however it was more formed than usual. When i get home from work, I will let him out and see if we have the bloody issue again and will try the peroxide! I just need to add to only the blood, correct

Hi HanksMom:
Yes, and maybe also try another tactic! Separate some of what appears to be a "blob" of blood from the poop and put it on non-porous surface such as a plate and consider adding one TINY drop of dish detergent to this and then gently mixing with a couple gentle f strokes from a toothpick or similarly functional object. If any frothing of the blood should occur, it will be magnified by the action of the soap! Then add a couple of drops (or so) of Hydrogen peroxide to this. You can mix all of this again slightly with the toothpick but it may be best not to as if this is blood, it should readily froth!

Maybe Hank's later-in-the-day poop will also be firmer than usual!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Hi HanksMom:
Yes, and maybe also try another tactic! Separate some of what appears to be a "blob" of blood from the poop and put it on non-porous surface such as a plate and consider adding one TINY drop of dish detergent to this and then gently mixing with a couple gentle f strokes from a toothpick or similarly functional object. If any frothing of the blood should occur, it will be magnified by the action of the soap! Then add a couple of drops (or so) of Hydrogen peroxide to this. You can mix all of this again slightly with the toothpick but it may be best not to as if this is blood, it should readily froth!

Maybe Hank's later-in-the-day poop will also be firmer than usual!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I know the pics are a little disgusting for some I’m sure, but it’s the best way to show what we are dealing with! Here is some pictures about 30 minutes of him being out, it had shape, was very soft, and I did mash it a little to see if I could see some blood. There was little traces and I used the peroxide and it bubbled up. I also noticed the mucus looking substance but it was actually fairly thick and sticky as you can see from the one picture if it hanging on the paper towel.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I know the pics are a little disgusting for some I’m sure, but it’s the best way to show what we are dealing with! Here is some pictures about 30 minutes of him being out, it had shape, was very soft, and I did mash it a little to see if I could see some blood. There was little traces and I used the peroxide and it bubbled up. I also noticed the mucus looking substance but it was actually fairly thick and sticky as you can see from the one picture if it hanging on the paper towel.

Thanks for the photos and the update, HanksMom! Is this day two or three of the Fenbendazole treatment? The more I think about Mel's comment about Fecal Transplantation the more I like that over a generic "non-Squirrel specific" probiotic (such as Bene-Bac) for aiding in recovery of a definitively compromised gut microbiome (while this may be the case with Hank; I just don't know)! Obviously this method cannot be utilized by most as a healthy donor Squirrel must be available and there are significant risks unless the donor poop is thoroughly evaluated for possible parasites!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Thanks for the photos and the update, HanksMom! Is this day two or three of the Fenbendazole treatment? The more I think about Mel's comment about Fecal Transplantation the more I like that over a generic "non-Squirrel specific" probiotic (such as Bene-Bac) for aiding in recovery of a definitively compromised gut microbiome (while this may be the case with Hank; I just don't know)! Obviously this method cannot be utilized by most as a healthy donor Squirrel must be available and there are significant risks unless the donor poop is thoroughly evaluated for possible parasites!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Today’s day two of treatment!

I found the fecal transplantation very interesting! Unfortunately, the only other squirrels around are in the woods behind my house…

[Mel1959]

If you’d like to send me your location in a private message I will see if there are any vet or rehabber resources near you.

[hanksmom]

Tomorrow will be our 5th treatment. Still active and drinking and eating. Still dealing with the same stools, no blood right now. Still smells. He has lost some grams from the start of this. Should I start adding more food in? He gets his two blocks and Maurzi blocks and started some shredded iceberg lettuce a few days ago.

Feb 3rd he was 589 grams

March 4th he was about 558 ish

Today he is 541

I feel like this is due to his medications and not eating as much as he had?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Tomorrow will be our 5th treatment. Still active and drinking and eating. Still dealing with the same stools, no blood right now. Still smells. He has lost some grams from the start of this. Should I start adding more food in? He gets his two blocks and Maurzi blocks and started some shredded iceberg lettuce a few days ago.

Feb 3rd he was 589 grams

March 4th he was about 558 ish

Today he is 541

I feel like this is due to his medications and not eating as much as he had?

Thanks for the update on Hank! I hope that you are considering Mel's offer about helping to facilitate contact with a Vet or Rehabber in your area!

The weight loss you reports is certainly concerning! While Hank gets his two HHBs daily, does he actually consume them in their entirety or does he shred them and actually consume significantly less than the original weight of the Blocks? How many Mazuri Blocks does Hank consume each day and might he also tend to shred those and not consume all that he begins to nibble on? From what I recall from your initial posts, Hank has been given two HHBs and free-fed Mazuri Blocks long before his stooling issues came about those do NOT seem likely to be factors in what is going on but the possibility does exist. To the best of my recollection, it appeared that Hank's stooling issues seemed to be associated with his eating avocado which was discontinued and there was a short period of normal stooling but then the loose stools returned! I would sure like to see Hank evaluated by a Vet but even so; your thoughts of adding some additional food may, as you suggest, be good to try at this time (except for avocado!). Hopefully, this will be just what Hank needs at this time! You may already have this but just in case, here is a link to Henry's Healthy Foods Pyramid;

https://henryspets.com/healthy-diet-for-pet-squirrels/

The wide base of the pyramid contains the healthiest foods and these are of course, quality blocks! As one moves up the pyramid, the levels narrow with the with the less healthy food options being toward the top and at the tip of the pyramid are the treats such as most fruits and nuts! Yes, nuts and fruits are treats for captive Squirrels! My suggestion, if you are going to add foods would be use the Pyramid as a guide and also to avoid ALL of the treat category foods until enough time passes to determine if Hank is gaining weight and whether or not his stooling issues are improving or hopefully resolved!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Thanks for the update on Hank! I hope that you are considering Mel's offer about helping to facilitate contact with a Vet or Rehabber in your area!

The weight loss you reports is certainly concerning! While Hank gets his two HHBs daily, does he actually consume them in their entirety or does he shred them and actually consume significantly less than the original weight of the Blocks?
He does eat the majority of his two blocks, with very little shredding

How many Mazuri Blocks does Hank consume each day and might he also tend to shred those and not consume all that he begins to nibble on?
There is more shredding from the Mazuri blocks and he gets maybe 5 a day in those, but doesn’t eat them all

From what I recall from your initial posts, Hank has been given two HHBs and free-fed Mazuri Blocks long before his stooling issues came about those do NOT seem likely to be factors in what is going on but the possibility does exist.
Hank was getting his 2 Henry’s a day, and other greens and veggies, a few Mazuri blocks added in that.


To the best of my recollection, it appeared that Hank's stooling issues seemed to be associated with his eating avocado which was discontinued and there was a short period of normal stooling but then the loose stools returned!
[B]Yes, the first time it happened was a week before this non stop one. He had it for a day, and still was normal for about a week, gave the Avacodo again, and that’s when it started again and we haven’t been able to fix it yet[B]
Also he was caught eating dried mud from my husbands boot who works in the log woods as well


I would sure like to see Hank evaluated by a Vet
I would love to find a vet that would see him without someone taking him and euthanize him, that’s my only fear

but even so; your thoughts of adding some additional food may, as you suggest, be good to try at this time (except for avocado!). Hopefully, this will be just what Hank needs at this time! You may already have this but just in case, here is a link to Henry's Healthy Foods Pyramid;

https://henryspets.com/healthy-diet-for-pet-squirrels/

The wide base of the pyramid contains the healthiest foods and these are of course, quality blocks! As one moves up the pyramid, the levels narrow with the with the less healthy food options being toward the top and at the tip of the pyramid are the treats such as most fruits and nuts! Yes, nuts and fruits are treats for captive Squirrels! My suggestion, if you are going to add foods would be use the Pyramid as a guide and also to avoid ALL of the treat category foods until enough time passes to determine if Hank is gaining weight and whether or not his stooling issues are improving or hopefully resolved!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I printed off the pyramid, it’s a great tool! This is what we’ve followed for 3 1/2 years. I think I will start adding a few things back in for him, and monitor his weight at the end of the week to see if we are going back up! I do wonder if it’s bc of all the meds he’s been on for a month and a half now. He’s not had a break at all expect for the 7 day stent before the pancur, and in almost 4 years he’s never had anything like this. I even though of a blockage but I’m not sure that would cause the smell

I also sent Mel a private message with that info! if it can happen safely we will definitely do it! Anything for my best bud!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I printed off the pyramid, it’s a great tool! This is what we’ve followed for 3 1/2 years. I think I will start adding a few things back in for him, and monitor his weight at the end of the week to see if we are going back up! I do wonder if it’s bc of all the meds he’s been on for a month and a half now. He’s not had a break at all expect for the 7 day stent before the pancur, and in almost 4 years he’s never had anything like this. I even though of a blockage but I’m not sure that would cause the smell

I also sent Mel a private message with that info! if it can happen safely we will definitely do it! Anything for my best bud!

Thanks HanksMom!
If I might make another suggestion; please consider giving the two regularly served HHBs in the morning BEFORE Hank gets his new "stuff" in his diet. Consumption of these two HHBs will ensure that Hank will get his full daily Calcium requirement and, further; these two HHBs will provide essentially all of Hanks daily nutritional requirements! Also, continuation of having at least a couple of the Mazuri Blocks available after Hank eats his HHBs would, IMHO, be worthwhile!
Please keep on with the Hank updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Thanks HanksMom!
If I might make another suggestion; please consider giving the two regularly served HHBs in the morning BEFORE Hank gets his new "stuff" in his diet. Consumption of these two HHBs will ensure that Hank will get his full daily Calcium requirement and, further; these two HHBs will provide essentially all of Hanks daily nutritional requirements! Also, continuation of having at least a couple of the Mazuri Blocks available after Hank eats his HHBs would, IMHO, be worthwhile!
Please keep on with the Hank updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I will definitely try the two blocks in the morning. Going after work to get his greens and veggies. I’m sure he will be a happy boy when he sees he has more to eat lol

[hanksmom]

I will definitely try the two blocks in the morning. Going after work to get his greens and veggies. I’m sure he will be a happy boy when he sees he has more to eat lol

Just wanted to show how happy he is, being nosey with his washed veggies before bagging it up ❤️

[hanksmom]

Update: a little firmer stool, still very soft, still a smell, and more of a mucus lining. He’s still eating and drinking well and active. Had his last (5 days) treatment of Pancur on March 10th.