Other greens?

[PeanutButter]

I feel like the veggies list is limited..is that just me? I picked up some turnip greens for myself and noticed they are not on any of the yes or no lists. Thoughts?

[GoldenEyes]

Hi, PeanutButter.
On the Healthy Diet for Pet Squirrels chart, I see that turnips are listed in the "Avoid" section. Since they did not specify turnip greens to be a good source of food for squirrels to eat, my guess is that the entire turnip should be avoided.

[Diggie's Friend]

Back in 1939 Kohman did a study in oxalates with studies in rats comparing diets with turnips to diets with spinach with a base diet; what he fond was that diet with turnips the rats thrived and so did their young, yet with the diet with spinach the rats failed to thrive and most died.

CONCLUSION

Oxalates, expressed as anhydrous oxalic acid, have been shown to occur to the extent of about 10% on a dry basis in spinach, New Zealand spinach, Swiss chard, beet tops, lamb's quarter, poke, purslane and rhubarb. Traces were found in nearly all vegetables and fruits.

If to a diet of meat, peas, carrots and sweet potatoes, relatively low in calcium but permitting good though not maximum growth and bone formation, spinach is added to the extent of about 8% to supply 60% of the calcium, a high percentage of deaths occurs among rats fed between the age of 21 and 90 days. Reproduction is impossible. The bones are extremely low in calcium, tooth structure is disorganized and dentine poorly calcified. Spinach not only supplies no available calcium but renders unavailable considerable of that of the other foods. Considerable of the oxalate appears in the urine, much more in the feces.

It appears that when turnip greens were added to the basal diet 79% of the calcium was utilized but when spinach was
added only 15% was utilized. Assuming that the calcium supplied by the basal diet and the turnip greens was equally
available, and bearing in mind that 15% of the total calcium is only 38% of that supplied by the basal diet, it appears that
the spinach not only supplied no available calcium, but it actually rendered unavailable 41% of the calcium of the basal
diet, i.e., the difference between 79 and 38. The sample of spinach used had 10.1% oxalic acid and 1.53% calcium. The
diet to which it was added then had 0.8% oxalic acid. When calcium oxalate was the addition, 44% of the calcium was utilized,
showing that the rat can make use of a small portion of the calcium in it.

It is notable that with turnip greens in the diet four times as much calcium per gram of tissue was deposited as with spinach in the diet. The data in tables 3 and 4, experiment 8, indicate a superiority of turnip greens over calcium carbonate in growth, calcium utilization and
calcium deposition per unit body weight.

Based upon the results of this research, turnip greens, if boiled to reduce the pH, remove any bad bacteria and endoparasites is a good source of nutrition for tree squirrels.

Boiling also deactivates goitrogens that otherwise would negatively impact thyroid function that lowers the uptake of minerals into the bloodstream as a result in rats, and other rodents. In fact all plant sources that contain a high level of goitrogens should be boiled and drained prior to feeding them. It also lowers oxalates that otherwise consumed raw, lower calcium availability to the body, when the portion is rinsed.

Boiling up to tend minutes, but doing a test boil first with a smaller portion, to ensure that it won't be too long as to it to green glop, is recommended. Rinsing the leaf is also recommended. Using a spring wire mesh tea strainger for small amounts makes the process allot easier.

[GoldenEyes]

Back in 1939 Kohman did a study in oxalates with studies in rats comparing diets with turnips to diets with spinach with a base diet; what he fond was that diet with turnips the rats thrived and so did their young, yet with the diet with spinach the rats failed to thrive and most died.

Based upon the results of this research, turnip greens, if boiled to reduce the pH, remove any bad bacteria and endoparasites is a good source of nutrition for tree squirrels.

Boiling also deactivates goitrogens that otherwise would negatively impact thyroid function that lowers the uptake of minerals into the bloodstream as a result in rats, and other rodents. In fact all plant sources that contain a high level of goitrogens should be boiled and drained prior to feeding them. It also lowers oxalates that otherwise consumed raw, lower calcium availability to the body, when the portion is rinsed.

Boiling up to tend minutes, but doing a test boil first with a smaller portion, to ensure that it won't be too long as to it to green glop, is recommended. Rinsing the leaf is also recommended. Using a spring wire mesh tea strainger for small amounts makes the process allot easier.

Hello, Diggie's Friend! Nice to meet you! Thank you for responding, and for the Kohman research results. I stand corrected. According to the study, and as you have pointed out, boiling turnip greens bring about more positive attributes of the vegetable.

On page 246, it says:

Turnip greens, mustard greens, kale and collards, greens with negligible oxalates, under similar conditions produce excellent animals that deposit four times as much calcium per unit body weight as those receiving spinach.

This brings me to the question: If the turnip greens, mustard greens, kale and collard greens were consumed raw, would the positive still outweigh the negative? I ask because most vegetables provided to tree squirrels from what I've seen are usually fresh, raw vegetables, and nutrition charts don't always make a raw vs. boiled distinction that should exist to ensure that the caretakers are doing what's nutritionally best.

[Diggie's Friend]

No because they contain oxalates that lower calcium, which sufficient boiling reduces when the vegetable or leaves are rinsed afterwards, leaving insoluble oxalate in the cooking water, and degrading the soluble oxalate also. This results in leaving more calcium available to the body to utilize than what is in the vegetables or greens if consumed raw.

Goitrogens also found in brassicas, and some in spinaches, raw yams, and some other sources also, lower the uptake of iodine to the parathyroid that in turn lowers PTH, that lowers the production of D3 by the kidneys, which is what supports the uptake of minerals into the bloodstream. This has been found in rats to be more of an issue for health in rats than in humans.

In humans without thyroid disease this isn't much of an issue, yet in rodents, that are in particular prone to a greater negative impact from goitrogens it isn't wise to feed them raw. As you can see, not much save Vitamin C is loss in boiling, as fruits fill in for this loss nicely.

Since boiling increases the bioavailability of calcium in broccoli and other plants belonging to the brassica group, which otherwise raw provide the body far lower amounts of calcium due to the oxalic acid in them binding up the calcium they contain upon their digestion in the intestines.

Why this happens in the gut is that these compounds are compartmentalized off from each other, only then when they are digested does Calcium and oxalic acid in the same leaves bond readily in the intestines, and also in the bloodstream, resulting in calcium loss to these sources. Stems tend to be highest of all in oxalates, leaves a bit less, roots vary, andn seeds tend to be high save they are sprouted, which metabolizes the oxalates.

In mature brassica plants these sources benefit from boiling, as oxalates are higher in the mature plants than the immature leaves, yet the goitrogens tend to be higher in sprouts than mature leaves. In regard to both issues, boiling evens the field.
,
Don't forget to boil test pieces to determine when it turns to glop, so you can boil it short of doing so.

There is much written on these issues, which applies well to most people's diets, save those apply to them save again they are stone formers, or have thyroid disease if these foods are consumed in moderation. As for that, reach the article on Brassicas, apparently the Mustard Plant is the parent plant to most Brassica vegetables; for this reason feeding them more than twice a week, as otherwise it really isn't feeding a squirrel a good variety. With boiling you can feed a bit more, but offer other greens that are not brassicas, and other vegetables also.

https://www.sciencealert.com/these-6...-plant-species

[Diggie's Friend]

Let me unscramble this paragraph I see I failed to edit fully.

There is much written on these issues that applies to most human's diets when these foods are consumed in moderation, save for people who are, "stone formers", or those that have "Leaky Gut Syndrome"; for humans by in large do not absorb much oxalates in their bloodstream, but eliminated it out their bowels.

With vegetables that contain high levels of goitrogens it is much the same, for most have no issue with goitrogens when consumed in moderation, save for those that have Thyroid disease that need to boil these leafy greens and vegetables to deactivate the goitrogens.

For rodents, which do absorb much of the oxalates in the foods that they consume, and are effected more than humans by goitrogens in teh same, reducing these anti-nutrient levels that can be sufficiently reduced by boiling without removing all the nutrients, is needful.

As far as Brassica vegetables providing variety, apparently the Mustard Plant is the parent plant to most Brassica vegetables. For this reason feeding them more than twice a week really isn't feeding a squirrel a good variety. Offering other greens (also blanched or boiled due to higher oxalates than calcium) provides a variety with a lower oxalate diet, and higher calcium diet.

In addition, with boiling you can feed a bit more as it reduces the moisture content, and so concentrates the nutrients, while eliminating oxalic acid, flushing out much of the insoluble oxalate, deactivating goitrogens, and destroying bad bacteria, and parasites.

Rinsing greens before blanching or boiling, removes most parasites. Soaking greens will also reduce their gaseousness.

[Diggie's Friend]

One more thing to know, feeding raw greens of more than a tiny measure (1/2 Tsp. and under) for adult tree squirrels (not juveniles) may cause the mean urine pH produced by the diet to elevated into the alkaline range of greater than 7.0. This has been found to promote calcium loss in the form of Calcium phosphate, not Calcium oxalate, in rats, even when the source is low or high in oxalates.

Also important to understand is that too high urine pH and too low both promote calcium loss into the urine, and as a result urinary calculi (calcium stones) in the kidneys, and or bladder. Keeping the mean urine pH in the mid to high 6 range of (6.4 to 6.9) does not promote urinary calculi from calcium loss. (testing strips from Mission testing strips and other sources are recommended to keep tabs on how your pet is doing; this can help to head off a long-term UTI that can result in another form of calcium stones known as struvite. When this occurs the mean urine pH will be alkaline, often even 8.0.

Boiling/blanching reduces the pH of greens into the slightly acidic, or neutral range, preventing the promotion of calcium loss from elevated pH. In a diet with nuts limited to no more than (1/2 to 3/4 Tsp.) of chopped organic pecans, or English Walnuts daily for midsized N.A. tree squirrels depending on their size and subspecies. Blanching (short time boiling) works well for immature (baby) greens, and boiling up to 20 min. for stalked vegetables. Chopping them up reduces the time some.

Feeding organic immature leafy greens of chicory leaves, arugula, watercress, escarole, lettuce varieties (not iceberg), that are low to nil in oxalates, rinsed well, then blanched (90 sec.) and rinsed with purified water, addresses goitrogens, parasites, and bad bacteria. If greens turn black or rusty do not feed them.

For mature leaves of turnips greens, boiling 5 to 10 min. short of turning to green glop. Bok Choy, and other Asian cabbages may take 10 to 15 min. Cabbage leaves up to 20 minutes, drained and rinsed.

Again test before cooking. Using a vacuum sealing bags you can precook sources and store them for future meals. I know a member that is an expert on prep and storage should you be interested on how they go about doing this.

In adult squirrel diets with a Calcium to Phosphorus ratio of (2:1 to.3:1) , and a Calcium to Magnesium ratio of approx. 2.7 :1 to 3:1 more calcium goes into the bones than adult diets with a lower ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus, and a higher ratio of Calcium to Magnesium.

A squirrel that has been given Calcium citrate and magnesium citrate in a whole foods diet for nearly 7 years now nearly 10 years of age, that and, has an optimum pH promoting diet, I'm told is doing well.

[GoldenEyes]

Diggie's Friend, I had no idea how harmful serving even the smallest amount of a certain vegetable could be if served raw to a rat or squirrel. You didn't just stop at saying boil these types of vegetables for this many minutes. You went on to explain the reasons why in detail. To think all this time I thought people boil certain vegetables because doing so made it taste better. From now on, when it comes to preparing certain vegetables, I will be soaking them, rinsing, blanching or boiling, draining, and rinsing, and I'll be thinking about oxalates, goitrogens, pH levels, Calcium absorption, and so on. Thank you for all this information. I'm learning a lot from you not just from this thread. You certainly leave no stone unturned when it comes to research.

[BCChins]

Diggie's Friend would this apply to other animal such as Sugar Gliders also? They too need the 2:1 calcium ratio. I learn so much here that I apply to them as they are so similar yet so different.

[GoldenEyes]

I sure hope PeanutButter comes back to see that many blanched/boiled vegetables can be placed in the Yes category.

[Diggie's Friend]

Not so much initially harmful, but about the long term negative effects that raw vegetables have on the body of rodents.

Though rats will eat about anything, raw green vegetables consumed daily of more than a Tbsp. measure is noted by Oxbow to produce gas that causes gastrointestinal discomfort. In sharing man's abode and foods down through history, rats adapted to eating many cooked foods, including vegetables, that were easier to digest than raw.

Save then for those sources extremely high in oxalates that are not good to feed, many leafy greens and vegetables when boiled can provide a greater amount of calcium in forms that the body can utilize, and also help to support a healthy mean urine pH in the whole diet.

This video is a favorite of mine. Pay attention to what the rat appears to be trying to communicate to the lady.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWC_phzWDWE

[island rehabber]

This video is a favorite of mine. Pay attention to what the rat appears to be trying to communicate to the lady.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWC_phzWDWE

[Diggie's Friend]

Translation:

"No, take it back, yuk!

Lady if you like it so much, here, you eat it!

What part of 'no' don't you understand? Double YUK!!"

[GoldenEyes]

Translation:

"No, take it back, yuk!

Lady if you like it so much, here, you eat it!

What part of 'no' don't you understand? Double YUK!!"

That video is too funny! He sure knows what he doesn't like. But it looks like there's a piece of broccoli he did eat on the left hand side. She shouldn't be feeding him raw broccoli anyway.

[GoldenEyes]

Diggie's Friend would this apply to other animal such as Sugar Gliders also? They too need the 2:1 calcium ratio. I learn so much here that I apply to them as they are so similar yet so different.

Diggie's Friend, any thoughts on this question from BCChins?

[Diggie's Friend]

At least 2:1 if not a bit higher for mature adults.

Looks like the rat ate the florets off, smart rat!

[Diggie's Friend]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cG7ax5bClQ

This time the rat blocks the opening to his cube, also putting up his arms to prevent the Brussels sprout from entering his domain.

The lady then tries to reason with the rat, saying, "Everybody has to have one, I think it's the law?"

The rat, "Nope, not com'in in here!


I wouldn't feed an NR squirrel in its nest box, as they are often particular about what goes in this space, save for nuts.

Feeding in the cage though is preferable, as they can become territorial about their perceived food space.

Placing boiled vegetables in a small bowl or plate along with veggie-fruits (boiled peas, and baked butternut or acorn squash),

may encourage squirrels to eat their veggies.

[GoldenEyes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cG7ax5bClQ

This time the rat blocks the opening to his cube, also putting up his arms to prevent the Brussels sprout from entering his domain.

The lady then tries to reason with the rat, saying, "Everybody has to have one, I think it's the law?"

The rat, "Nope, not com'in in here!


I wouldn't feed an NR squirrel in its nest box, as they are often particular about what goes in this space, save for nuts.

Feeding in the cage though is preferable, as they can become territorial about their perceived food space.

Placing boiled vegetables in a small bowl or plate along with veggie-fruits (boiled peas, and baked butternut or acorn squash),

may encourage squirrels to eat their veggies.

That Dexter sure is a comedian. I wonder if he knows how funny he is! Diggie's Friend, does the lady have any video where Dexter is actually eating his veggies?

[Diggie's Friend]

I don't know, there is at least one other video of him I saw.

Just a side note, Dexter had a good life, yet like all rats whose years are fewer than most mammals larger than them, has since passed.

His videos continue to delight many with his funny expressions, and behaviors.