3-month old squirrel has not weaned, nutrition?

[deborah0302]

Hi everybody,

I found a baby squirrel in my parking lot at work 2 1/2 months ago. I consider him my luckiest find. Anyway, after a lot of reading around online, I wasn't sold on Esbilac and fed him scalded half and half with liquid Vitamins D and E, and a good spoonful of plain yogurt added in. Sprinkles did very well on this formula, and is now a young squirrel.

However, I'm having some trouble getting him weaned. Also, now that he has been on formula for so long, I'm worried about his nutrition. Here's what's going on...

For the last several weeks, I regularly offer him broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, strawberries, grapes, bananas, organic baby food (pureed fruits and vegs, nothing at all added), but he refuses all. I was thrilled when he ate a raspberry and an almond, but he definitely did not transition away from his formula, though he went from 3 to 2 feedings a day. I have ordered Henry's blocks and also the Picky blocks, but they are not here yet.

His teeth grew in with the lowers in front of the uppers. I trimmed all successfully last week (God bless Mary, who put a video on YouTube) and gave him some good chew material, which he likes and does chew.

Maybe because his teeth were interfering with his eating, he has seemed a bit weak. However, in the last few days I thought I saw him arch back in a way that made me think he was having a seizure. After this happened about three times, I got on this board and found out about MDB. I immediately fed him a crushed Tums glued with honey (could only get him to eat half), and he seemed to perk up more than he had in several days.

Following that, I immediately made a fresh batch of formula and added in a good deal of powdered calcium (the formula makes up about 1C, and I added 3000mg powdered calcium, which also contains a little vitamin D) with a little bit of honey, in case it was a glucose issue. He ate his regular mealtime amount and seemed to like it quite well. He does seem a little stronger and more active, but is still "off".

Am I doing the right things? What should I do? What is he missing? How can I wean him?

Also, how in the heck can he have a calcium deficiency when his diet is mostly half and half and yogurt (with liquid Vitamin D, so he can absorb it)?

I haven't spent a lot of words describing his loving, intelligent, sweet and adorable personality, but he is indeed a little treasure and I love him very much. Any help and advice will be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,
Deborah and Sprinkles

P.S. I'm sorry about the large attachment. I tried to get rid of it, but it won't go away!

[Unikorngrrl]

Oh dear. Hi and to TSB!!! You have come to the right place for help. There are going to be lots of changes that most of us had to learn when we got here too so please understand we've all been here, and I'm not trying to be ugly at all!! First, we don't recommend that you ever wean a squirrel. You let them wean themselves if they ever do. Or when it's time for release and he's way to small for that.

2nd, here is the link to the healthy diet information. He shouldnot be getting fruit AT ALL. It holds no nutritional value for a squirrel, and it makes them not want to eat their healthy stuff. The half and half that he is on is NOT AT ALL GOOD FOR HIM. You should immediately change to either Esbilac or Fox Valley. He's going to need to build his nutrition up badly. if you don't change him to something with proper nutrition you will very likely end up with a very sick squirrel very soon. Henryspets.com sells Fox Valley and since he's about 3 months old you should get the Day One 20/50. While you're ordering that you should go ahead and buy the Henry's Healthy Blocks for squirrels. Growth Formula. That is the first and only food he should be getting. After he is eating those VERY well, not shredding but eating them, you can start with green leafy vegetables from the healthy diet pyramind. I'll get you the link. After eating the HHBs and green veggies really well you can try other veggies. Fruit and nuts will be ONLY a treat. One small piece of fruit and/or 1 nut a day is what we recommend here. Squirrels need a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio to prevent Metabolic Bone Disease. It's a very painful disease caused by a lack of calcium that will inevitably kill the squirrel if diet is not corrected. Nuts are high in phosphorus and cancel out any calcium intake if overfed. Vitamin D is also required in the diet to allow calcium absorption. So you should stop the fruit immediately, change to a healthy baby formula, and stop trying to wean. Read, read, read, here about nutrition and care!! It will help you get this guy healthy and keep him that way!! Though you may not be able to see it yet, there is already damage done from the lack of nutrition provided by the milk mixture that you have been feeding.

Healthy Diet Pyramid: http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...(Revised-2-13)

Calcium to Phosphorus ratio guide: http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...sphorus-Ratios

[Duckman]

OMG! He is just Teddy Bear adorable!!! (I seem to say adorable a lot here lately!!! It must be that I love all squirrels!!!)

Edit - Now for the serious stuff (I just couldn't get over how cute he was, and went back to read the post!), how often do you feed him? It might be that you are feeding him too often, and so he doesn't get hungry between meals, and isn't trying other things "to snack" on. This could also lead up to him not wanting to ween off, because he is always "topped off" full.

[Scooterzmom]

Hi and welcome to TSB.

Your baby is just gorgeous!!! but yes, his diet is in dire need of correction. I strongly advise you to check the nutrition pyramid and start with that. You've been offered great advice, please take it. Everyone here has your baby's welfare at heart.

Re. the calcium tablet: be careful, discontinue that one with the vitamin D included in it. The amount of vitamin D included in the calcium tablets is for humans and those levels can be toxic for squirrels. You should get calcium tablets instead, no vitamin D in it. He can get his vitamin D in other ways - sunshine and/or diet. Most importantly: do change that formula! The scalded milk is a true way to MBD. Please get him on Fox Valley. As you were told, there already is some damage done from the regular scalded milk but you cannot see it yet. By the time you see the symptoms of MBD the squirrel is already in very deep trouble and already at risk of dying... so please don't wait til he shows symptoms to correct this.

One suggestion to get him to eat his Henry's blocks: offer them and nothing else first thing in the morning and wait til he has eaten them to offer him his other food. Soon enough he'll take a liking to them and you will have no problem. I give mine their blocks just before I go to bed (I'm a night owl, so that's very late at night/early morning) and when they wake up, since they have no choice and do not get their food til lunchtime, they eat their blocks without any fuss.

[farrelli]

Yes, follow the diet chart, don't wean, no more D, and I didn;t see anyone say to stop the current formula. Cow milk is terrible. Order the FV but until that arrives, you can get Esbilac puppy formula THE NEW KIND WITH PROBIOTICS (the old kind is bad) at many pet stores, or you can use our temp formula replacement below:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ilk-Formula***

[CrazySquirrelLady]

good job Farrelli

[farrelli]

Also, I see you have him outside. We STRONGLY recommend that squirrels never be allowed outside before being prepared for release, and it sounds like your guy might be unreleasable. They can get spooked and run off, or get lost, or whatever, never to return and probably to find a bad end. We have seen A LOT of heartbreak in this regard over the years. Lots of people think that their squirrel is special and would never do this, until it happens.

[deborah0302]

Hi everybody - thank you very much for the kind replies.

Can someone please explain the right amount of vitamin D? It seems there is conflicting information out there, and even in the replies below, some of which say he must have it, and some of which say he must not...

DO they need it at all? I have read many resources online saying they must have it to absorb calcium if they do NOT have access to sun. My squirrel has access only to indirect sunlight.

If they DO need it, how much is the right amount?

What are symptoms of Vitamin D toxicity in squirrels? Maybe this is the problem, and not calcium deficiency. I've been including 1000iu (liquid squeezed out of a small gel capsule) per cup of formula. This means he has been getting about 100iu a day.

Also, I can move my squirrel onto Fox Valley formula or goat's milk and the *new* Esbilac, but I want to understand why. WHY is the scalded half and half bad? The recipe for the emergency goat's milk formula just replaced scalded half and half with goat's milk, and then added milk back in the form of heavy cream -- and seems, according to the post -- to actually be better for young squirrels than just the new Esbilac, which suggests cow's milk may be better after all. What is the difference, nutritionally, in using goat's milk and/or Esbilac INSTEAD of scalded milk or half and half? I have not found a specific answer on this ("it's closer to squirrel nutrition" is not specific at all and would receive a very poor grade if submitted for a science report).

Please bear with me as I'm not trying to start a debate, but the debate was already there and the information about WHY the scalded milk is bad and WHY Esbilac and/or goat's milk is the better choice is sparse.

To address a couple of the concerns in the replies...

Outdoors: Though my squirrel is outdoors in the picture, the picture does not show the 8-foot high concrete wall enclosing my small porch (the reason the porch gets no sun). He is only allowed out when I am right there supervising him, and mostly he is busy eating dirt.

Food Pyramid: I have reviewed this several times, but it's a bit of a moot point. He won't eat solid foods except the one raspberry and the one almond - in his life, not per day. When he is fully on solids, I will definitely follow the advice of "fruits and nuts only as treats given very sparingly, after they eat their block and vegetables!"

Blocks: I ordered Henry's blocks. They are not here yet. I expect he will refuse them, especially since he doesn't eat breakfast anyway, but I've read some good posts on TSB about how to make them more irresistible.

Topped Off: This sounds possible. When I first found him I fed him 4x a day, then a few weeks ago he began to refuse the first feeding (making it 3x), now he again refuses the first feeding (making it 2x). He just doesn't seem hungry enough to switch, but at the same time, he is lighter than I think he should be.

Kind and grateful regards,
Deborah

[farrelli]

Very rushed. Didn't read the whole thing. Vitamin D is necessary for calcium absorption, but sqs are very sensitive to it, so too much is toxic. Professional exterminators used it in high concentrations as a rodenticide. They normally get it from the sun, but that's not workable for indoor squirrels. As long as they have a quality rodent block or formula, they get all they need.

Cow milk is bad because it's hard to digest. Even in humans, only those with a cultural history of dairy farming have selected for the gene to break it down properly. This is why you won't see hardly any dairy in, for example, an asian market. They have no such history and so can't digest it well. Improper digestion not only causes various forms of malnutrition, but also can cause GI upset. Scalding it halps break it down some, but it's not perfect. FV and Esbilac are specifically formulated to be digested well, and goat's milk has a very small molecular footprint and is digested quite readily by almost any mammal. This is why it's the go-to formula in zoos all over the world. It's great if you don't have a specialized formula available.

[sdreamcatcher]

In reply to scalded milk, and cow's milk in general:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...t=scalded+milk

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...BABY-SQUIRRELS!

Cow's milk doesn't have the proper nutrients to sustain a baby squirrel; in essence they slowly starve to death. You said he seems too light? I am not familiar with baby greys and not sure if you posted his age, but he does looks small; hopefully someone with more experience in that department can advise. Do you know his weight in grams?

Move him to this formula if you can't find the esbilac with probiotics:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ilk-Formula***

STOP giving scalded milk. It does not take long once they do get sick to go downhill fast. He may seem healthy but it will eventually kill him. Goat's milk is easier to digest and closer to what they need nutritionally (with the other ingredients listed). I raised some of my kids on it until I could get the fox valley formula and they all thrived.

RE: The vitamin D I would say no supplementing AT ALL. He will get what he needs in the proper formula, and later with the blocks.

Don't have him outside unconfined. These guys are quick and if spooked he may take off. Not worth the risk. He will need to be overwintered then can be slow released in the spring.

[sdreamcatcher]

Very rushed. Didn't read the whole thing. Vitamin D is necessary for calcium absorption, but sqs are very sensitive to it, so too much is toxic. Professional exterminators used it in high concentrations as a rodenticide. They normally get it from the sun, but that's not workable for indoor squirrels. As long as they have a quality rodent block or formula, they get all they need.

Cow milk is bad because it's hard to digest. Even in humans, only those with a cultural history of dairy farming have selected for the gene to break it down properly. This is why you won't see hardly any dairy in, for example, an asian market. They have no such history and so can't digest it well. Improper digestion not only causes various forms of malnutrition, but also can cause GI upset. Scalding it halps break it down some, but it's not perfect. FV and Esbilac are specifically formulated to be digested well, and goat's milk has a very small molecular footprint and is digested quite readily by almost any mammal. This is why it's the go-to formula in zoos all over the world. It's great if you don't have a specialized formula available.

[farrelli]

Other points, the concrete wall may as not be there, he can scale it. Please don't take him outside if you care about him.

Cream, it's a way to introduce fat and sqs have a high fat requirement. It isn't as bad as undigestable as milk, but it can cause GI upset on its own. This is why it's introduced after a few feedigns without it, and ideally gradually.

D, here's a link on toxicity. It doesn't sound like you've given him too much, but it is fat soluable and stored in the liver, so it builds up over time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_D

[SammysMom]

to TSB. You are getting all the right advice here from many experienced members who you need to trust. I realize that you want to ask questions and understand the whys about the changes, but if you don't make those changes now that baby is not going to do well and may pass away. Goats milk is the most versatile milk for any mammal. It can be given to human babies also. The only reason that the cream is added is to add fat as goats milk is not as high a fat content as squirrel milk is. The yogurt is for fat and also for probiotics.
Do you still have the Esbilac formula you tried at first? If it is unopened or is powder that has been in the fridge and it is the one that says "with probiotics" somewhere on the can, use it.
I sound pushy and I am being pushy. If you want this baby to do well and be healthy, you need to take the advice that is given and take it right away.
A week ago I buried a baby that was "doing great" on human formula after having him for 20 minutes. THe finders did not understand why it wasn't okay to use the formula and didn't follow the protocol I gave them. Then, when he became ill they called me again and were willing to give him to me. All I had with him was 20 minutes and he passed. Please take this advice and stop using half and half. It will kill him.

[farrelli]

One more thing, if he won't eat the blocks (what kind did you get? Growth?), we can give you tips on how to make that happen. He NEEDS to be consuming either blocks or formula, and if he won't eat either, too bad. You'll have to use tough love and give him nothing until he eats those blocks (or something made of them). We've seen it a million times. They won't starve themselves. The reluctance is why we advise people to not give any other food but blocks and formula until they are happily eating their blocks, THEN other foods are introduced.

Bad nutrition is the cause of probably most of the problems we see here, so getting this right is super important.

[Duckman]

I am going to take on the Scalded milk question, since it is the one that I know well. The anatomy of a squirrel and a human are vastly different. We have certain enzymes and bacteria in our stomachs, which allow us to break down the fats and proteins in cows milk, and absorb the different nutrients, while not allowing toxins in the milk to be absorbed. Squirrels on the other hand, can't flush out the toxins in cows milk and don't have the ability to absorb the fats. This is why squirrels slowly die from Cows Milk.

With my Rex, in order to ensure he has the ability to convert calcium to Vitamin D (Squirrel biology has that unique gift!) I put in a reptile sun lamp over his cage and have to change it out every 6-8 months. I still have him on the Squirrel Block too, to ensure he gets all of the other nutrients that healthy squirrels need. I am actually really lucky, because before I came to The Squirrel Board, I fed Rex mainly Nuts, and Fresh Veggies, and I believe the only thing that kept him from getting MBD was that sun lamp. I am sure he would not be here today, if I hadn't done that one thing!

None of us here at TSB work for Fox Valley, nor does anyone here receive anything from them for recommending the formula. Our only motive is to ensure your sweet little guy gets the best care and nutrition possible. As cute as he is, he is also severely underweight (which makes him look so much cuter) and really does need help. I can tell from your posts you truely care, and please believe that we also truely care as well! As a rehabber, I have lost squirrels in the past, due to my own mistakes or lack of certain knowledge, and we only want to ensure you don't lose one, due to a mistake or lack of certain knowledge.

[farrelli]

To clarify, seeing that I've seen it here a couple times, calcium does not convert to vitamin D. D and magnesium are required for calcium absorption. Without these on board, no calcium is absorbed.

I am going to take on the Scalded milk question, since it is the one that I know well. The anatomy of a squirrel and a human are vastly different. We have certain enzymes and bacteria in our stomachs, which allow us to break down the fats and proteins in cows milk, and absorb the different nutrients, while not allowing toxins in the milk to be absorbed. Squirrels on the other hand, can't flush out the toxins in cows milk and don't have the ability to absorb the fats. This is why squirrels slowly die from Cows Milk.

With my Rex, in order to ensure he has the ability to convert calcium to Vitamin D (Squirrel biology has that unique gift!) I put in a reptile sun lamp over his cage and have to change it out every 6-8 months. I still have him on the Squirrel Block too, to ensure he gets all of the other nutrients that healthy squirrels need. I am actually really lucky, because before I came to The Squirrel Board, I fed Rex mainly Nuts, and Fresh Veggies, and I believe the only thing that kept him from getting MBD was that sun lamp. I am sure he would not be here today, if I hadn't done that one thing!

None of us here at TSB work for Fox Valley, nor does anyone here receive anything from them for recommending the formula. Our only motive is to ensure your sweet little guy gets the best care and nutrition possible. As cute as he is, he is also severely underweight (which makes him look so much cuter) and really does need help. I can tell from your posts you truely care, and please believe that we also truely care as well! As a rehabber, I have lost squirrels in the past, due to my own mistakes or lack of certain knowledge, and we only want to ensure you don't lose one, due to a mistake or lack of certain knowledge.

[squirrellove89]

try mixing a lil baby food veggies in the formula he will adjust to taste.

cows milk is not even really good for humans but more simply put u wouldnt feed a human baby squirrel milk lol

i know all this info is overwhelming and your probably sitting there thinking these people are crazy this way totally works for me but all these people really care about squirrels and have wonderful success rates raising them. trust them they are great people who really want to help you do whats best there is lots of misinformation out there but here is where u will get the correct info and they have proven it over and over. sometimes what they say can come off as a bit pushy but thats only because they have seen countless babies die from pointless mistakes but they really do care and want to help you

[deborah0302]

Hi everybody -

Does anyone have the answer to how much Vitamin D is too much?

Reading around online, Vitamin D toxicity shows the same symptoms as MDB.

I am getting some Esbilac tonight and FV formula ordered this morning (has to ship), but I feel an important point has been missed here. This squirrel did great on scalded half and half with vitamin E and D plus yogurt for three months. He does not have diarrhea. He is clearly not starving to death. In some ways, this board appears to be giving out inaccurate information, even if scalded milk is not the best formula. It does seem to me to be an acceptable formula, as long as it is not actually lowfat milk with nothing - no vitamins or yogurt - added.

My main problem is weaning. 3+ months on formula has been a worry - it seems from some replies, that this is ok, so I won't worry about that any more. My secondary problem is he is lethargic. Since giving him a LOT of extra calcium as of yesterday, he is a lot more active - and maybe this IS because of the scalded milk, but it could instead or also be because of excessive Vitamin D added. I'm concerned that the lethargy could be caused by, not calcium deficiency, but Vitamin D toxicity, since the symptoms apparently are the same.

I do not now know and can not find anywhere after searching all morning how much Vitamin D is toxic for squirrels. I don't want to stop giving him Vitamin D if he needs it (since he gets no direct sun), but I can't tell if he's had too much, in which case he should obviously not have more. I do not want to make the wrong adjustment here. Everywhere I've read that you should give your squirrel Vitamin D gives no specific amount, and some say, "just open and add a liquid gel cap", which I did. But what I had on hand was 1000 iu per gel cap.

Please note I am following the advice given to me, for which I thank everyone (especially farelli). I will look into getting a sun lamp for him, too (thank you Duckman), which may eliminate the Vitamin D issue altogether, but I would rather solve the Vitamin D issue.

Kind regards,
Deborah

[sdreamcatcher]

Hi everybody -

Does anyone have the answer to how much Vitamin D is too much?

Reading around online, Vitamin D toxicity shows the same symptoms as MDB.

I am getting some Esbilac tonight and FV formula ordered this morning (has to ship), but I feel an important point has been missed here. This squirrel did great on scalded half and half with vitamin E and D plus yogurt for three months. He does not have diarrhea. He is clearly not starving to death. In some ways, this board appears to be giving out inaccurate information, even if scalded milk is not the best formula. It does seem to me to be an acceptable formula, as long as it is not actually lowfat milk with nothing - no vitamins or yogurt - added.

My main problem is weaning. 3+ months on formula has been a worry - it seems from some replies, that this is ok, so I won't worry about that any more. My secondary problem is he is lethargic. Since giving him a LOT of extra calcium as of yesterday, he is a lot more active - and maybe this IS because of the scalded milk, but it could instead or also be because of excessive Vitamin D added. I'm concerned that the lethargy could be caused by, not calcium deficiency, but Vitamin D toxicity, since the symptoms apparently are the same.

I do not now know and can not find anywhere after searching all morning how much Vitamin D is toxic for squirrels. I don't want to stop giving him Vitamin D if he needs it (since he gets no direct sun), but I can't tell if he's had too much, in which case he should obviously not have more. I do not want to make the wrong adjustment here. Everywhere I've read that you should give your squirrel Vitamin D gives no specific amount, and some say, "just open and add a liquid gel cap", which I did. But what I had on hand was 1000 iu per gel cap.

Please note I am following the advice given to me, for which I thank everyone (especially farelli). I will look into getting a sun lamp for him, too (thank you Duckman), which may eliminate the Vitamin D issue altogether, but I would rather solve the Vitamin D issue.

Kind regards,
Deborah

The one thing that may have saved him is that you gave him half scalded milk and half esbilac. BUT you do NOT need to supplement vitamin D! It is in the esbilac. It is in the formula we are advising. It is in the blocks you just ordered (specifically formulated for squirrels).

Yes he has seemingly thrived on what you have fed. But isn't he now "arching his back" and "lethargic"? Something isn't quite right to make you come here to begin with? Is this the first squirrel you have raised? How much does he weigh (grams) and how old is he?

Stop supplementing. The only vitamin D issue I can see with him is overdosing; remember it is a fat soluble vitamin and extra gets stored; very good possibility that over the last three months that he appears to have been thriving this has been happening. Feed the goat's milk formula or esbilac with probiotics or the fv. Offer him blocks in between formula feedings. He will probably just dismantle them in the beginning; that is ok. Eventually he will eat them.

I understand your need to question. BUT you came here because he was showing some disturbing symptoms that made you wonder if you are doing all you can for him. I have raised 8 babies; my first baby would not have made it if I hadn't followed the advice given here, by people who have raised literally hundreds (if not more). Mine are living wild now; healthy, chunky, happy little buggers because of this site.

[SammysMom]

Believe me, I am NOT criticizing you for your error in feeding. My Sammy survived despite me, NOT because of me, until I found TSB after he began showing signs of MBD after weaning way too early and me feeding a terrible diet. I guess, as with humans, getting out nutrition is done through our healthy diet. There is no need to supplement Vitamin D if he is eating a proper diet.
We on TSB may be wrong on a thing or two, but diet is not one of those things. It has been debated and argued endlessly and it always ends up that the diet that is subscribed to here is right. Although a child might be able to survive for a year eating nothing but Snickers bars, inside he would not be healthy. He might be alive, but he would not be healthy. You now have the correct information, so he will be on the road to recovery before you know it.
One of the most difficult things about dealing with prey animals is that they have an innate ability to conceal any disability in order to not be seen as the weakest and therefore someone's dinner. That is why we are often not able to see it when they begin to suffer the consequences of a poor diet.