Welp...I'm stumped

[synisterkat]

Hi y'all. Haven't been around in a good long while. Need some help with Percy please. He was fine one evening a couple days ago and then the next morning he was flat out in his cage. I thought it may have been trauma but he doesn't seem to be in pain. No signs of fracture or contusion. He just...won't move. I immediately thought MBD but he just doesn't get any bad foods and his diet is pretty tight. And does it come on suddenly? Anyway, I started some Calcium citrate, bought some formula, and have been trying to syringe some food into him. He'll eat reluctantly. Any advise on what to feed?

FYI - I have NO access to a vet. None, nada, zip.

Thanks much!

Kristie

[Spanky]

The MBD protocol can only help, not hurt. Yes, it can come on that quickly... one day fine, next day dead laying on the bottom of the dead. Well, it takes weeks and sometimes months to progress, but the symptoms can seemingly come on that quickly... squirrels are masters of hiding pain and weakness. Once it is obvious, it usually is a critical situation.

Does his diet include any sort of rodent block?

[synisterkat]

The MBD protocol can only help, not hurt. Yes, it can come on that quickly... one day fine, next day dead laying on the bottom of the dead.

DOes his diet include any sort of rodent block?

Diet is 2 Henry's Healthy blocks, greens (lettuce, kale, spinach etc) small bit of fruit, squash, snap peas, avocado, and so forth. Have Harlan Teklad (Envigo now I guess) available at will. No nuts, no corn, no cookies. He gets occasional wild treats like magnolia buds and seed pods, pinecones, Apple blossoms and branches.

[synisterkat]

So I'm following MBD protocol but he does not want to eat. So just keep forcing formula? Henry's blocks don't blend very well. Do I add rodent block? Veggies? I don't want to make this worse.

[CritterMom]

Boy, with the diet you describe, he doesn't sound like an MBD candidate. I would continue to offer more calcium, but think you should also look further.

I know you say you don't think he is in pain but given his actions, he seems like he is, particularly not eating. CAN he move?

I would dose him with infant ibuprophen. Do you know/can you get his weight? It is quite effective for pain - if he takes some and suddenly begins acting more "normal" you know that there is something that is hurting him.

[synisterkat]

Boy, with the diet you describe, he doesn't sound like an MBD candidate. I would continue to offer more calcium, but think you should also look further.

I know you say you don't think he is in pain but given his actions, he seems like he is, particularly not eating. CAN he move?

I would dose him with infant ibuprophen. Do you know/can you get his weight? It is quite effective for pain - if he takes some and suddenly begins acting more "normal" you know that there is something that is hurting him.

Thanks. I will weigh him. I do have ibuprofen. He is now sitting up and moving around a bit. He can move from one spot to another and adjusts his position when I hold him. Head and eyes track, doesn't seem neurological. Still won't eat solid food even if I hold it. So the calcium may be working??? I won't be able to weigh him until tomorrow. I'll keep you posted. Thank you so much. Y'all are always so helpful.

[synisterkat]

He's 660 gms. Eeek. Can't believe how much he's lost :(

[Diggie's Friend]

What is his age?

[CritterMom]

Infant ibuprophen dosing sent by PM

[synisterkat]

What is his age?

He's 7

[Chirps]

Just saw this thread. How's Percy today?

[synisterkat]

He's moving much better. Did 2 doses of ibuprofen but it didn't seem to make any difference. Did NOT want syringe food this am. So I'll put his regular meal as well as some squishy food with him and continue calcium sprinkled on his food. Fingers crossed!

[lukaslolamaus]

Great to read that he is moving around better :grouphug
Hopefully Percy will bounce back to his squirrely bouncy self in no time :Love_Icon
Please keep us updated :hug

[synisterkat]

So far so good!! He's pretty mobile. Seems a bit stiff legged when he moves though. Able to sit up and eat on his own. Have stopped trying to syringe him any food even though he could use the extra calories. He's back to his normal food aggressive self! But he still snuggles after he's done eating. He's SO thin. Any tasty treats that aren't too bad for him? I'm running out of things to try.

[Charley Chuckles]

Prayers to Percy:grouphug
Maybe some avocado, it's a healthy fat :great

[TubeDriver]

Great idea but remember no skin or pit (toxic)!


Prayers to Percy:grouphug
Maybe some avocado, it's a healthy fat :great

[JLM27]

Do squirrels need vitamin D like we do to be able to use calcium?

[McCarthy]

Do squirrels need vitamin D like we do to be able to use calcium?


Yes, they do need vitamin D - it is needed for calcium absorption - if they don't have daily access to sunlight outside the house. Vitamin D intake is normally covered with quality rodent block, but only if it makes up at least 80% of the entire food intake.

Now, we can't know if rodent block always gets the right amount of vitamin D. If I ever house a pet squirrel again, I will make my own rodent block in order to make sure that vitamin D is supplied in the right amount.

Supplementation with vitamin D must be done with care since too much vitamin D will kill squirrels.

[McCarthy]

So far so good!! He's pretty mobile. Seems a bit stiff legged when he moves though. Able to sit up and eat on his own. Have stopped trying to syringe him any food even though he could use the extra calories. He's back to his normal food aggressive self! But he still snuggles after he's done eating. He's SO thin. Any tasty treats that aren't too bad for him? I'm running out of things to try.


I'd move his cage outside, every day for at least 2 hours, into the sunlight, so his body can make vitamin D which is needed for calcium absorption.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I'd move his cage outside, every day for at least 2 hours, into the sunlight, so his body can make vitamin D which is needed for calcium absorption.

Please be very careful if you decide to take your Squirrel outside for sunlight. Yes, Squirrels need vitamin D but they do NOT need sunlight to get it. As McCarthy points out, Rodent Blocks contain Vitamin D. In reality and sadly so, the popular rodent blocks such as Harlan-Teklad (now Envigo) are made primarily for laboratory rodents who usually never see the light of day and still do fine nutritionally and do not develop Metabolic Bone disease or Calcium or Vitamin D deficiencies or disorders from being kept indoors. Also, there are risks associated with direct sun exposure especially in the hot Summer months. Risks associated with direct sun exposure include the development of skin cancers among other concerns. Exposure to hot summer temperatures, especially by a Squirrel who lives indoors where it relatively cool can quickly lead to dehydration, heat exhaustion, heat stroke and even death in a relatively short period of time. If you do decide to take your Squirrel outside please do not put them in an enclosure and location where they are in constant direct sunlight. They should always have shade available. They should also have readily available and accessible of water at all times. Further, you should ideally be in constant attendance to monitor the status of your Squirrel while outside. There are also additional concerns about being outside and these include potential exposure to biting and stinging insects, etc.

Again, it is truly UNnecessary for your Squirrel to be outside to get Vitamin D as long as you provide a diet that contains adequate Vitamin D such as Harlan-Teklad blocks or supplement with Henrys Healthy Blocks (HHB). Teklad blocks can be free fed but HHB should never be free fed. These blocks are in themselves supplement and as far as Vitamin D is the issue, HHB contain a relatively high concentration of Vitamin D compared with a free fed dietary source such as Teklad. HHB should be limited for the "average" adult Squirrel to two blocks per day but this can be and should be adjusted up or down a block or so depending on the size of the Squirrel and how much they may waste while they eat. Ideally when considering the nutritional needs of Squirrels, a quality rodent block such as Harlan-Teklad should be the major constituent of there diet. Henry's website contains the frequently cited Diet Pyramid (https://henryspets.com/healthy-diet-for-pet-squirrels/) which is quite useful. Most Squirrels seem to appreciate variation in their diet and the Pyramid makes some good suggestions BUT, a Squirrel will do very well nutritionally speaking if they eat nothing but a quality rodent block such Harlan-Teklad and they will not need to run any risk of being outside get their Vitamin D.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[McCarthy]

Please be very careful if you decide to take your Squirrel outside for sunlight. Yes, Squirrels need vitamin D but they do NOT need sunlight to get it. As McCarthy points out, Rodent Blocks contain Vitamin D. In reality and sadly so, the popular rodent blocks such as Harlan-Teklad (now Envigo) are made primarily for laboratory rodents who usually never see the light of day and still do fine nutritionally and do not develop Metabolic Bone disease or Calcium or Vitamin D deficiencies or disorders from being kept indoors. Also, there are risks associated with direct sun exposure especially in the hot Summer months. Risks associated with direct sun exposure include the development of skin cancers among other concerns. Exposure to hot summer temperatures, especially by a Squirrel who lives indoors where it relatively cool can quickly lead to dehydration, heat exhaustion, heat stroke and even death in a relatively short period of time. If you do decide to take your Squirrel outside please do not put them in an enclosure and location where they are in constant direct sunlight. They should always have shade available. They should also have readily available and accessible of water at all times. Further, you should ideally be in constant attendance to monitor the status of your Squirrel while outside. There are also additional concerns about being outside and these include potential exposure to biting and stinging insects, etc.

Again, it is truly UNnecessary for your Squirrel to be outside to get Vitamin D as long as you provide a diet that contains adequate Vitamin D such as Harlan-Teklad blocks or supplement with Henrys Healthy Blocks (HHB). Teklad blocks can be free fed but HHB should never be free fed. These blocks are in themselves supplement and as far as Vitamin D is the issue, HHB contain a relatively high concentration of Vitamin D compared with a free fed dietary source such as Teklad. HHB should be limited for the "average" adult Squirrel to two blocks per day but this can be and should be adjusted up or down a block or so depending on the size of the Squirrel and how much they may waste while they eat. Ideally when considering the nutritional needs of Squirrels, a quality rodent block such as Harlan-Teklad should be the major constituent of there diet. Henry's website contains the frequently cited Diet Pyramid (https://henryspets.com/healthy-diet-for-pet-squirrels/) which is quite useful. Most Squirrels seem to appreciate variation in their diet and the Pyramid makes some good suggestions BUT, a Squirrel will do very well nutritionally speaking if they eat nothing but a quality rodent block such Harlan-Teklad and they will not need to run any risk of being outside get their Vitamin D.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel


The problem right now is that he is not eating enough and is too skinny, hence he is not getting enough vitamin D, so his calcium intake isn't working out. And if he really has MBD, being able to absorb calcium through vitamin D coming from sunlight is paramount.

But as you said, this need to be in a place and time without risks for too much heat and away from predators.

[sundoesshine]

So far so good!! He's pretty mobile. Seems a bit stiff legged when he moves though. Able to sit up and eat on his own. Have stopped trying to syringe him any food even though he could use the extra calories. He's back to his normal food aggressive self! But he still snuggles after he's done eating. He's SO thin. Any tasty treats that aren't too bad for him? I'm running out of things to try.
Full fat yogurt, possibly mash in a bit of fruit. All mine love unsweetened dried coconut flakes.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

The problem right now is that he is not eating enough and is too skinny, hence he is not getting enough vitamin D, so his calcium intake isn't working out. And if he really has MBD, being able to absorb calcium through vitamin D coming from sunlight is paramount.

But as you said, this need to be in a place and time without risks for too much heat and away from predators.

The issue with MBD is rarely a problem with inadequate Vitamin D! MBD is essentially a deficiency in calcium intake or an effective deficiency in calcium secondary to a diet containing excessive phosphorus. The development of MBD takes a relatively long time and resolution also takes considerable time. Calcium metabolism definitely requires Vitamin D but it does not take much to reach maximal benefit. Vitamin D, either from the sun or from nutrition will NOT make up for inadequate calcium intake and/or poor Calcium/phosphorus ratio. If your Squirrel is not eating as well as he should be, ways to enhance appetite and nutritional intake are what is required! Also, concentrated foods such as HHB may help as well so that if the appetite is relatively poor for awhile, eating a smaller volume of concentrated food should help to provide an optimal nutitional intake. Although I have no definitive proof of this, I suspect that excessive phosphorus intake especially in relation to the calcium intake is at least as common a cause (and I suspect more so!) of MBD that inadequate calcium intake alone. The secret (if there is one) that will lead to resolution of MBD is providing adequate MAINTENACE Calcium while also providing additional Calcium as SUPPLEMENTATION. The treatment with Calcium MUST also take into account the phosphorus intake and this phosphorus must be specifically limited! Henry's has a good bit of very good information on MBD (https://henryspets.com/what-is-metabolic-bone-disease/). Again, direct sunlight is not necessary for adequate calcium metabolism as long as the diet contains adequate Vitamin D and I have personal concerns about the inherent risks to being outside and being in the sun in general! If those risks can be taken into account, there is no reason not to take a Squirrel outside but it is not necessary.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[CritterMom]

The issue with MBD is rarely a problem with inadequate Vitamin D! MBD is essentially a deficiency in calcium intake or an effective deficiency in calcium secondary to a diet containing excessive phosphorus. The development of MBD takes a relatively long time and resolution also takes considerable time. Calcium metabolism definitely requires Vitamin D but it does not take much to reach maximal benefit. Vitamin D, either from the sun or from nutrition will NOT make up for inadequate calcium intake and/or poor Calcium/phosphorus ratio. If your Squirrel is not eating as well as he should be, ways to enhance appetite and nutritional intake are what is required! Also, concentrated foods such as HHB may help as well so that if the appetite is relatively poor for awhile, eating a smaller volume of concentrated food should help to provide an optimal nutitional intake. Although I have no definitive proof of this, I suspect that excessive phosphorus intake especially in relation to the calcium intake is at least as common a cause (and I suspect more so!) of MBD that inadequate calcium intake alone. The secret (if there is one) that will lead to resolution of MBD is providing adequate MAINTENACE Calcium while also providing additional Calcium as SUPPLEMENTATION. The treatment with Calcium MUST also take into account the phosphorus intake and this phosphorus must be specifically limited! Henry's has a good bit of very good information on MBD (https://henryspets.com/what-is-metabolic-bone-disease/). Again, direct sunlight is not necessary for adequate calcium metabolism as long as the diet contains adequate Vitamin D and I have personal concerns about the inherent risks to being outside and being in the sun in general! If those risks can be taken into account, there is no reason not to take a Squirrel outside but it is not necessary.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

This is without question true, and a quick scan of the calcium/phosphorus ratios of common foods will tell you exactly why - high phosphorus foods are way, way, WAY more common than foods with high calcium.

I am an old horse person, and a while ago, you started seeing stuff about flax seed. Horses liked it and it makes their coats shine like 45 minutes with a bottle of Show Sheen. What nobody was looking at is that flax seed is the highest natural source of phosphorus...until the horses started having trouble. Bone issues on a horse are devastating. They still sell flax seed but not alone - it is processed with a ton of calcium to counter the high phosphorus somewhat now.

[McCarthy]

The issue with MBD is rarely a problem with inadequate Vitamin D! MBD is essentially a deficiency in calcium intake or an effective deficiency in calcium secondary to a diet containing excessive phosphorus. The development of MBD takes a relatively long time and resolution also takes considerable time. Calcium metabolism definitely requires Vitamin D but it does not take much to reach maximal benefit. Vitamin D, either from the sun or from nutrition will NOT make up for inadequate calcium intake and/or poor Calcium/phosphorus ratio. If your Squirrel is not eating as well as he should be, ways to enhance appetite and nutritional intake are what is required! Also, concentrated foods such as HHB may help as well so that if the appetite is relatively poor for awhile, eating a smaller volume of concentrated food should help to provide an optimal nutitional intake. Although I have no definitive proof of this, I suspect that excessive phosphorus intake especially in relation to the calcium intake is at least as common a cause (and I suspect more so!) of MBD that inadequate calcium intake alone. The secret (if there is one) that will lead to resolution of MBD is providing adequate MAINTENACE Calcium while also providing additional Calcium as SUPPLEMENTATION. The treatment with Calcium MUST also take into account the phosphorus intake and this phosphorus must be specifically limited! Henry's has a good bit of very good information on MBD (https://henryspets.com/what-is-metabolic-bone-disease/). Again, direct sunlight is not necessary for adequate calcium metabolism as long as the diet contains adequate Vitamin D and I have personal concerns about the inherent risks to being outside and being in the sun in general! If those risks can be taken into account, there is no reason not to take a Squirrel outside but it is not necessary.
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel



OP stated that she is providing adequate calcium intake on a very strict diet based on the pyramid, that includes rodent block, and he STILL may have gotten MBD. If her squirrel has MBD, this leaves only the assumption that the vitamin D intake is the lacking variable. There are plenty of articles on this topic, see below. The main cause for MBD in captive pet squirrel is the lack of sunshine and it is suggested to provide just that. And a spot in a window doesn't cut it.

She also wrote that he is refusing food intake, and that she dropped formula again, so this brings us back to not enough calcium intake AND not enough vitamin D because the vitamin D food intake is lacking as well and he is not exposed to sunlight. That's a lose:lose situation.

With no sunlight AND not eating enough, he will lack vitamin D and calcium absorption is limited no matter how much calcium you add to his remaining diet. Trying to argue against this fact is dangerous. Are you willing to be responsible for the outcome?

--

"MBD is most often caused by improper diet. Vitamin D, which under normal circumstances the body produces on it's own (needing sunlight to do so), is vital to the body's ability to absorb calcium. Sun received through windows and window screens is not adequate because these filter the important UV rays necessary for this to take place. Professionally formulated milk replacers have vitamin D in them, but as the animal is weaning they are receiving less and less of this vital nutrient so 20 minutes of full sun a day is recommended, or all spectrum or full spectrum bulbs can be used if the former is not possible. Because the formula we feed is balanced with *all* the vitamins necessary, the weaning diet is critical."

Source: https://www.squirrel-rehab.org/rehabinfo/mbd.html

Source: https://www.squirrelrefuge.org/metabolic-bone-disease-in-squirrels

--

"Sun received through windows and window screens is not adequate because these filter the important UV rays necessary for this to take place. So – ignorance, diet and not enough sunlight cause Metabolic Bone Disease. Educate the public – squirrels should not be kept as pets."

Source: https://www.wildlifecenter.org/sites/default/files/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Anything-and-Everything-Squirrel_0.pdf

--

"Unfortunately, MBD is most commonly seen in those ... species which require ultraviolet light (or UV) such as sunlight"

Source: https://www.madisonherps.org/kickstart/en/wisconsin-reptile-resources/education-articles/112-the-must-knows-of-metabolic-bone-disease-mbd

--

"Save our squirrels: Natural sunlight helps a squirrel’s body to produce Vitamin D."

Source: https://www.reporternews.com/story/life/columnists/2022/05/01/save-our-squirrels-heres-how-give-orphaned-animals-chance/9571771002/

[McCarthy]

Obviously you shouldn't bring a squirrel outside when its 100 degrees, coming from a 75 degree AC'ed home.

OP lives in Bakersfield, CA. They have 76 - 78 F early in the morning. Perfect conditions for an hour of sun.



...inherent risks to being outside and being in the sun..

That perspective doesn't sit well with me, at all. Squirrels live outside, and they prefer to be outside. Being outside is the normal, being captive is not. Implying that the outdoor world is dangerous while we humans decide to keep them captive where they can't decide when to fill up on sunlight and what to eat, is backwards in my book.

When I face health issues, I look at nature and opportunities to make things better, not worse by living in fear and limiting my options.

[Spanky]

That perspective doesn't sit well with me, at all. Squirrels live outside, and they prefer to be outside. Being outside is the normal, being captive is not. Implying that the outdoor world is dangerous while we humans decide to keep them captive where they can't decide when to fill up on sunlight and what to eat, is backwards in my book.

The danger is a squirrel being CAPTIVE inside of a cage that is in the outdoors, left in the sun. Sun stroke is a real thing that has killed more squirrels than I care to rehash. Have you researched how squirrel dissipate heat from their bodies on extremely hot days? I am sure Sam was not talking about a wild squirrel that is living their best life free in the trees... 2 totally different things.

Sam's advice on vitamin D spot on IMO... and the thing that folks, IMO, don't seem to grasp all too often is the part about diet's containing "excessive phosphorus"... a squirrel cannot possibly eat enough calcium to counteract "excessive phosphorus". My (perhaps infamous?) analogy is always about having a diet coke with a Super-Sized Big Mac Meal and proclaiming this a healthy meal. Lord knows we try to preach the Ca:P ratio info.

[McCarthy]

Sam's advice on vitamin D spot on IMO... and the thing that folks, IMO, don't seem to grasp all too often is the part about diet's containing "excessive phosphorus"



It is not spot on. OP clearly stated no nuts and a very tight diet. See quote below:


Diet is 2 Henry's Healthy blocks, greens (lettuce, kale, spinach etc) small bit of fruit, squash, snap peas, avocado, and so forth. Have Harlan Teklad (Envigo now I guess) available at will. No nuts, no corn, no cookies. He gets occasional wild treats like magnolia buds and seed pods, pinecones, Apple blossoms and branches.

I already addressed excessive sunlight in prior posts. That the squirrel needs shade as on option is obvious.



[FONT=comic sans ms]Have you researched how squirrel dissipate heat from their bodies on extremely hot days?

I just wrote what the weather temp in OP's location is, in the early AM, it is basically room temp. Putting one half of the cage into the sun will be zero issue.

I have raised and been dealing with, and reading on squirrel / rodent topics for 28 years, I think I stated that in my welcome thread.

While most others still have a job and / or family to take care off, I have literally 17 hours every single day that I can use for whatever I want. These days I spend easily 10 hours every day on squirrel related issues. I go to the park interacting with over 20 squirrels at least every other day. When I go, I stay often for 6 hours. When I come home, I keep reading on these topics, watch videos, etc. I'm not pulling my responses out of my hat.

[Spanky]

It is not spot on. OP clearly stated no nuts and a very tight diet.

Yeah, unfortunately I think we have traveled away from the OP's issues with Percy, but I am glad he is doing better. I think it was established he has a well-rounded diet that includes Vitamin D and his current challenges are not likely to be MBD with the diet as identified which includes the necessary calcium, contains low phosphorous and sufficient vitamin D ... but yet we are going back and forth about Vitamin D; diet versus sun. :facepalm:peace1