Please My Squirrel Needs somebody experienced fast!

[EarlsMom]

First it was an issue with my squirrel destroying his nipples making formula control difficult. From that issue, suspected AP that I used amoxicillin for. Then bad diarrhea due to a batch of formula I unknowingly mixed too concentration when switching to larger batch, (or maybe the amoxicillin too?) Stopped everything and started rehydration fluid for 24 hours. Diarrhea improved and I started adding back some formula in incremental feedings. Between formula and rehydration fluid he was taking 6-7% at his feeding (4) yesterday. Last night he acted normal. This morning he slept in and I woke him up to find him dehydrated feeling, lethargic and quite weak on his feet! I gave him 6 of his 8 ml of formula (he was transitioning 1/2 formula to 1/2 rehydration fluid) but he only took 3ml of the fluid. I tried again in an hour and got 3-5ml more in, then maybe 6 ml and hour later. He seemed a bit steadier after the first feeding but is weak again. I have no experience SQing a squirrel but I think he needs help fast! I have some .9% sodium chloride on hand. BUT PLEASE let me bring this squirrel to someone!! I’m just not experienced enough and I think I’m going to lose him! He can be saved if he can get help soon! I think Nancy in NY is only an hour and a half away from me. Could someone ask her to take him please!

[CritterMom]

Are you mixing his formula with hydration fluid? Or giving them at the same time? If so, stop. Formula is to be mixed with WATER. If giving hydration fluid, you want to give him his formula, wait an hour or two, then give him hydration, then wait again until he gets formula.

How long have you been giving hydration fluid? It is meant to be used for 24 hours. At that point the salt begins to build up in his system.

[EarlsMom]

I have him the homemade rehydration fluid for slightly less than 24 hours, then started back using 1/4 formula and 3/4 fluid, but not mixed together! I didn’t want to push the transition and using did the 1/4 for two feeding, the 1/2 this morning. But I didn’t wait the hour between. I gave him his formula first and topped off with the hydration which he did not take all of.
Om’goodness! Re: “At that point the salt begins to build up in his system.”

I had been using the homemade stuff until this morning. Then I got out the sodium chloride for SQing (that I have no experience except on my cat) and I USED THAT FOR HYDRATION FLUID THIS MORNING!!! I have the Wild Mammal Baby book and it said it could be used orally.

[EarlsMom]

To clarify better, I used his normal formula mixed with water. Fed that, and the fluid separately.

[CritterMom]

OK. First, calm down. He can feel your panic and it isn't helping. Heck, I can feel your panic. Breathe.

Make a new batch of formula, mixed the way it is intended to be made - one part formula powder and 2 parts water. Stick it in the fridge.

Give him some plain old water - nothing added. Warm it up just like you would formula. Then let him (and you) chill for an hour.

Then warm his formula up - maybe a little warmer than you usually do, and give him some of that.

Then an hour later, some more warm water. Remember, he will be getting water in the formula as well as the plain water you are giving him.

Over the balance of the day, try to get him back on a regular schedule with his formula, and in between those feedings, offer him some of the warm water

I am not trying to be snotty when I tell you to calm down. Mammals get the vast majority of their communication from the energy of those around them - not from your words, not from your voice, but from your energy, and if that energy is panicky, they will panic. While you are with him, say all of the calming words you want to convey to him SILENTLY, in your head. They will change your energy to match your thoughts, and that will soothe him. Panic will frighten him and that is not going to make him want to eat and drink.

[EarlsMom]

No offense taken Crittermom, I am definitely in a panic and fumbling all over myself. Your directives are settling me down. New formula made, water warming, and me trying to take slow deep breaths. Thank you.

[CritterMom]

I have reread your post a couple times and I think that his weakness and lethargy may be related to hypoglycemia from lack of actual nutrition. It looks like he was only on hydration for a while because of the diarrhea, and then you have been doing the REALLY lean super diluted formula for a bit. Think about how shaky you get when you don't eat for a while. ALSO, formula diluted that way tastes like crap! Take whatever milk you normally drink, dilute it to 25% milk and 75% water and take a swig! Yuck! That will make him not want to eat, too.

So I am going to modify my directions a little. Give him the water like I said, and then give him one drop of something like honey or pancake syrup. Not a lot, we don't want to get the diarrhea going again, but one drop will start to bring his blood sugar up. Then push his formula feeding up - let him chill with water and the drop of syrup for a half hour, and then offer him the formula. If he shows some enthusiasm, let him have between half and 3/4 as much as he should be getting for his weight, not the entire amount. Continue offering water an hour after that, and at his next regularly scheduled feeding, get a little closer to his normal feeding amount. At the feeding after that one, go ahead and let him have the full 5-7% of formula.

I am trying to get nourishment into him but not trigger the diarrhea again.

If he balks at taking plain water, give him the drop of sugar or syrup, wait 10 minutes or so, and go right into his formula feedings.

[EarlsMom]

The little squirrel took 3ml of the plain water, then hid his head and refused more. I put him back to bed.

I’m about 20 minutes away from giving him his formula (due 1:45). I see him out and eating his block which he likes and will eat many of in a day. He is obviously much steadier on his feet and not nearly as weak appearing. Throughout all the issues of the last week I never took away the block because I thought at least he was getting some nutrition. Should I take it away so he’ll take more formula and hydration fluids? And if so when should I give it back?

I too am feeling much better.

EDIT: oops after posting this I saw you left another post that I have to review.

[CritterMom]

Nope. Let him have his block. The more blocks he eats, the less formula he is going to want.

Are they the Henry's blocks? And which formula is he eating?

Here is a tip: Before you go to bed at night, mix up ALL of the formula you are going to use the next day and stick it in the fridge. When you are feeding him the next day, place the container on the counter and swirl it around a few times (don't shake it), take out only as much of the mixed up formula as you are going to feed him at that feeding, and warm only that up and leave the rest in the fridge. Discard any uneaten formula from the amount you took after you feed him. That night, throw out any formula you have leftover, and do it all again.

Here is why: When you initially mix the powder and water together, it only STARTS to dissolve. It takes a while for the powder to completely absorb the water. It LOOKS mixed up, but actually, the powder is in "suspension" - the powder is floating in the water and coloring it white but it hasn't actually absorbed all of the water and thoroughly dissolved. It is MUCH harder for the animal to digest that way and can actually be the reason behind diarrhea. I always use VERY hot water to mix formula and that helps some but nothing helps as much as just letting it sit in the fridge for hours. Swirling it before you "decant" what you will use at that feeding will mix up any sludge that has collected on the bottom of the container without adding air bubbles to everything.

Floating your little single serving container in a larger cup or something of hot water to heat it is a good idea - you can leave it there to float and it will stay warm through the feeding.

[EarlsMom]

2:45- He took 10.5 ml of water, seemed quite perked up, sat on his haunches well and ate THREE zupreem blocks one right after the other! 3:00-4:00 He refused the water and only took only a couple sips. He seemed tired halter 3 blocks) so I let him sleep but in actually he was going downhill again. I tried giving water again and only got 2.5 ml into him. After feeling plump after the first two feedings he’s feeling ‘gaunt’ again and looking weak.

PS. He is on FV 20/50 and eats Zupreem monkey chow. He had also been nibbling on some vegetables but I took them away for the last two days. Thanks for the Tip on making the formula the night before. I had only allowed about 4 hours. BTW, this little squirrel is the nipple eating monster from an earlier post this week “Aspiration pneumonia suspected. What antibiotic should I use?l and I am on my third original miracle nipple of the DAY!

Tried again before sending this and got another 4.5 ml in. He seems slightly better but not as well as he was earlier.
I just noticed the time and it would have been time for his formula. Should I wait and whole hour from now or offer in a half hour?

[CritterMom]

2:45- He took 10.5 ml of water, seemed quite perked up, sat on his haunches well and ate THREE zupreem blocks one right after the other! 3:00-4:00 He refused the water and only took only a couple sips. He seemed tired halter 3 blocks) so I let him sleep but in actually he was going downhill again. I tried giving water again and only got 2.5 ml into him. After feeling plump after the first two feedings he’s feeling ‘gaunt’ again and looking weak.

PS. He is on FV 20/50 and eats Zupreem monkey chow. He had also been nibbling on some vegetables but I took them away for the last two days. Thanks for the Tip on making the formula the night before. I had only allowed about 4 hours. BTW, this little squirrel is the nipple eating monster from an earlier post this week “Aspiration pneumonia suspected. What antibiotic should I use?l and I am on my third original miracle nipple of the DAY!

Tried again before sending this and got another 4.5 ml in. He seems slightly better but not as well as he was earlier.
I just noticed the time and it would have been time for his formula. Should I wait and whole hour from now or offer in a half hour?

No, he can eat ANY time after having water - he may just not want as much.

Best antibiotic for A/P is cipro. You would only need one pill. Can you ask around - women in particular as it is sometimes given for UTIs. Animal version of cipri is Baytril.

[EarlsMom]

I think he’s passing away. He is now on his side and breathing strangely. Not clicking or gasping.

[CritterMom]

I think he’s passing away. He is now on his side and breathing strangely. Not clicking or gasping.

I am so sorry. I really am at a loss here. If he will let you hold him, put him on your chest and let him know how you love him.

[EarlsMom]

WTH! He popped up and ran down and grabbed a block! Five minutes ago he was a limp noodle, laying on his side, with staring glazed eyes!!

He’s on his second block as I write this! He ate three in a row at 3:00 About to see if he’ll take formula!

[CritterMom]

Well he is going to give ME a heart attack.

This is starting to sound like seizure activity. The shakiness, lying in one place, "staring with glazed eyes" all sound "seizure-ish to me.

Squirrels with A/P don't "chow down" on blocks or anything else. Squirrels with some sort of illness don't either. When he went down so fast I started questioning a heart issue but again, the enthusiastic eating doesn't square with that at all.

Do you have any almonds? Or, do you have any Rolaids? Not Tums, Rolaids. Both of these things have magnesium in them.

It seems that SOME (not all) humans that suffer from idiopathic (nobody knows why it happens) seizures need additional magnesium. It is NOT that they have a deficient diet, it is that for some reason they do not metabolize magnesium as effectively as everyone else. Many of these people take Rolaids and control seizures they have had for a lifetime and been on all manner of medication for. It also seems that it happens with squirrels, too. Island Rehabber had a seizure squirrel that enjoyed a much improved quality of life with additional almonds! We have members in Costa Rica that have been treating a seizure squirrel with additional magnesium as well.

Neither Rolaids nor some almonds are going to hurt him (and I can guarantee that he will prefer the almonds) and it sure would be interesting to see if something changes when they are added.

[EarlsMom]

A couple things:
He took 5 ml of formula before he gave me his bad boy ears and muttered some nasty things about my mom. Then he promptly ran and got another block. Interestingly (and a bit worrisome), he seems quite wobbly for the amount of improvement I’m seeing. I think he should be better on his feet.

He just discovered the water bottle and drank and drank from it! Now I’m thinking of putting his formula in one at feeding time. I’m serious, considering his mounting miracle nipple bill.

And…he eating A LOT of block, like 5-7 a day, 6 since 3 pm.He leaves a few crumbles but he’s eating most of it! Considering what’s going on, do I still try to get 5-7% formula in him per feeding? If he refuses is that okay and I just keep pushing the fluids? Show him the water bottle? He drank for 5 full minutes!

He produced a normal looking poo for which I’m very grateful for. :dance

CritterMom I can’t thank you enough! Im off to the grocery store.

Oh, what do I do overnight? Should I getup and hydrate him?

[CritterMom]

A couple things:
He took 5 ml of formula before he gave me his bad boy ears and muttered some nasty things about my mom. Then he promptly ran and got another block. Interestingly (and a bit worrisome), he seems quite wobbly for the amount of improvement I’m seeing. I think he should be better on his feet.

He just discovered the water bottle and drank and drank from it! Now I’m thinking of putting his formula in one at feeding time. I’m serious, considering his mounting miracle nipple bill.

And…he eating A LOT of block, like 5-7 a day, 6 since 3 pm.He leaves a few crumbles but he’s eating most of it! Considering what’s going on, do I still try to get 5-7% formula in him per feeding? If he refuses is that okay and I just keep pushing the fluids? Show him the water bottle? He drank for 5 full minutes!

He produced a normal looking poo for which I’m very grateful for. :dance

CritterMom I can’t thank you enough! Im off to the grocery store.

Oh, what do I do overnight? Should I getup and hydrate him?

It sounds like he is pretty hydrated, and now that he has found the water bottle he will probably return to it. I think they enjoy drinking from them - they make a cool noise. Don't put formula in it. I am concerned that he will get over-enthusiastic about the formula and aspirate.

Considering how much block he is eating I would be surprised if he eats much formula. Go ahead and offer but don't worry too much if he doesn't want to eat a full amount.

I am sure he will enjoy his almonds! Give him a couple before bed.

[EarlsMom]

Crittermom after pulling the squirrel back from dehydration, I kept seeing a worrisome weakness in him that wasn’t keeping pace with the recovery. In fact it got worse as evening progressed. Something wasn’t making sense, he was eating, taking fluids, and should have been perked up. Here are some things that I began to noticed over the day. He seemed to squeak in pain when I held him (I used fleeces so my hands weren’t hurting him), he stopped sitting upright and was hunched and resting on curled under front feet, his nose was down resting on the ground often. He wobbled walking, was weak, and had a weird gait. Then just before he crawled into bed his hind quarters gave out and start dragging! Earlier I noticed a bit of jerking or twitching. And then…when he looked at death’s door all glazed eyed and staring, lying on his side. And…really the block eating yesterday was a bit bizarre. He chowed three blocks one after another, two separate times. Almost as if he was frantic!

Anyways..as far fetched as it may seem…I think he’s metabolic. When I started thinking how that could be being formula fed, I saw lots of opportunity over the last two weeks for that to creep in with all the unrelated issues that were going on at the same time. With the nipple issue and aspiration he was inconsistent with his formula intake. His bed he spent all day in was on the bottom of the Critter Nation cage (because I could put a heating pad under that shelf and he couldn’t get to the cord), he got NO Vit D, only in the late evening did he come out to play, or exercise, groom my hands etc.,
Because of the feeding inconsistency and potential for dehydration I would offer a grape a couple times a day (smh). I also got orange for him because it was better C:P ratio. I had a few other veggies he tried (spinach, snap peas, acorn sq) He got the hang of actually eating the block as opposed to shredding it and would eat several over the course of a day. When he got the diarrhea I think that escalated the calcium deficiency. He got no formula but upped his intake of the mostly CORN Zupreem block!! Then the frantic eating of three at a time twice over yestterday says to me he was instinctively looking for something to fix him! When I saw I’m getting weaker even though he was hydrated it didn’t make sense until I saw him drag his legs as he went to bed! Then it hit me!!! While I have no experience with it, I’ve read enough posts over the years to know what it is and signs of it. He wouldn’t eat the Roland or a calcium pill of mine, so I made a slurry of a powdered calcium pill and 3 ml of formula and force fed him that with a prayer. This morning he was better, walking stronger,
Unfortunately, today he is absolutely refusing everything!!! I managed to get 3 ml of formula in him but it took 1 1/2 hours. Seeing him going down hill again I made a thin slurry with water and more calcium and gave him like maybe .4 ml. When he roused slightly an hour later I gave him a ml of water. I don’t know what else to do. Anything I do is exhausting and agitating to him. I’m now at a loss to how much intervention do I tax him to. Could I give him some Tylenol for comfort and if so how much.

[CritterMom]

I suppose it is possible, and actually treating him for it won't hurt him.

The Zupreem is made of corn like so many animal foods are, but it is also supplemented with calcium to bring the calcium to phosphorus level to where it should be. That said, I sure would rather see him eating the Henry's blocks. They are pricey but at 2 to 3 per day it isn't too bad. They also taste good, and are actually both a vitamin supplement and a food. Do order some. https://henryspets.com/diets/ I strongly recommend the hazelnut flavor, with the picky blocks coming in 2nd. Henry's ships really fast.

You need to use caution with your calcium pills. Calcium supplements for humans are heavily supplemented with Vitamin D usually. Squirrels need D but not in the quantities human supplements have, and high levels of vitamin D are actually used as a rodenticide - to KILL them, so you can see why too much is bad. This is why we recommend using the Tums (not rolaids this time). Tums have only calcium carbonate in them - no D. Also, while at the Henry's site, if you go to the supplements section, they sell little bags of straight calcium carbonate powder.

Yes, he can have INFANT IBUPROPHEN. It is a liquid - make sure you get the infant, not childrens strength. We need his weight to really correctly dose him with it. While there, pick up a bottle of Tums - get the regular chewable tablets, not the new gummy chews or anything like that. Go for fruit flavor. Turn the bottle around and look at the black box info on the back. You want the highest amount of ELEMENTAL CALCIUM per tablet (check the number of tablets they are calling a serving). The amount of calcium shown on the front label means very little - check the back.

Is he still willing to eat his Zupreem blocks? You can use those to get the calcium into him. Grind up a couple of the blocks and mix with enough peanut butter or almond butter or even Nutella so you have something the texture of stiff cookie dough. You can then grind up the Tums and add to the dough, then roll it into little balls for him to eat.

So your next shopping list is infant ibuprophen (generic is fine), Tums tablets (generic is fine) and "glue" for the calcium balls - peanut or almond butter or nutella. And remember we need his weight. And place an order from Henrys for both the blocks and some calcium powder. Don't buy the MBD kit if you see it - it has stuff you don't need and your money is better spent on just the blocks and powdered calcium.

[EarlsMom]

Would plain calcium citrate work? I have that on hand to dust some veggies with? I have infant Tylenol, any chance that could work?

Ugh, he’s not even taking fluids at all.

[CritterMom]

Yes, absolutely. Is it just a powder? Do you have any info on how much powder equals how many milligrams calcium or do I need to hunt that down?

I am not comfortable with the Tylenol and don't have any dosage info on it. The ibuprophen would certainly work better.

OK, I reread your thread and saw something I missed yesterday. I see you are using Zupreem primate chow - the "monkey biscuits." That is kind of old school rehabbing and I really don't have much info on it and how much it is supplemented. Certainly primates and rodents are very different.

Do me a favor - do you have any peanut butter? Put a bit on your finger and see if he will eat it.

[EarlsMom]

Whoops, forgot to add he was 220g this morning.

It’s just a plain powder. I don’t have the original packing either and I just tried to look back through my Amazon orders and must not have gotten it through them.

Shows no interest in the tums/chow/peanut butter ball or the plain peanut butter. He promptly wiped it off his lips when I put a dab on after he refused.

[CritterMom]

I have the info on the calcium citrate. Do you have any peanut or almond butter or maybe the nutella?

[EarlsMom]

Wow you are amazing!

Yes have some of both (ccalcium citrate and peanut butter) on hand.

[CritterMom]

Put a little blob of each on your finger and hold it under his nose and see if he tries either.

BTW, I sent you the infant ibuprophen dosing via PM. We don't dose meds on the open board.

[CritterMom]

So the method to my madness to see if he likes peanut butter or nutella or almond butter is to come up with a way to get him to take his calcium without having to force it into him.

I have done some hunting online and the potency of the calcium citrate I am finding is all over the place. If you have PLAIN calcium citrate that does not have added vitamin D, check the label and see how many teaspoons equals how many milligrams. Basically, you want to try to get about 300 mg per day into him, broken into as many small doses as you can, not one large dose. So for example, let's say 1/2 teaspoon of the powder is about 300 mg of calcium. Put that in a dish and mix in some of whatever he likes best - peanut butter, almond butter, nutella, whatever. I would start with just enough of the nut butter to be able to form the mixture into tiny balls, but if he doesn't take to it you may need to add more of the nut butter. If it is too sticky, giving it to him may consist of just smearing it on your finger and letting him lick it off. Getting that amount into him for a couple days should tell us if he does indeed have MBD. It won't cure him - he will need to stay at that level a bit longer and then start very slowly reducing it. Feeding him the Henry's will help tremendously - it was designed specifically to avoid and treat MBD so it has a pretty good amount of calcium in it as well.

I think the infant ibuprophen will help, too - if he is sore he is going to want to not eat, and if you can relieve that he should start up again.

Another thing that may help is to return his heating pad. If you can place it under the cage bottom so he can't chew it but so the heat radiates up, that, too, will help with pain relief and it is just soothing to them.

Don't bother answering now, he needs your attention, but when you get a moment, answer this for me - I know you are giving him Fox Valley 20/50. Has he been on that since you got him or was he on another formula earlier? If so, what was it?

I hope he is holding his own.

[EarlsMom]

Just reading this, as I myself, am at the hospital hooked up for my own calcium infusion. Wish I could run a line to my little guy.

This morning I’m even more convinced it’s MBD. I looked up online for the calcium citrate I ‘think’ I bought. The label said 2380 mg calcium per tsp BUT further reading saw only 570 mg of actual elemental calcium. So this morning I mixed up a slurry of 1/4 tsp of calcium and two ml of diluted apple juice and gave him half. He loved it! (He has no interest in peanut butter yet). I think that’s about 75ish milligrams. I done that three times since 8am. I am concerned using the apple juice is going to loosen up his stools and that’s a road I don’t want to go down again! Considering the gravity of getting calcium into him it was the lesser of two evils. If he likes the slurry, what do you think of sticking with that? I will still do the balls up with the hope he’ll switch for the long term.

I’ll pick up some Almond butter to try on the way home. What about a mushy fruit or is that too much sugar?

I have been dosing him with the ibuprofen and can tell it’s working, thank you.

Arriving home, I was able configure the Ferret Nation cage here (with wider spacing) and use the heating pad on the upper shelf (sliding the pad under the fleece covering) so he hasn’t gone without.

Re: FV 20/50 -I only used the FV 20/50 because I was unsure of the expiration date of the Esbilac I had on hand because it came from a rehabber’s bulk supply. The trouble wasn’t with the FV but with me. It had been a couple years since I’d had a squirrel and I was trying to work with what I could get a hold of at my summer cottage. The baby is paying the price for my ineptness. I’m heartbroken.

I have Henry’s blocks coming in a few days. Plus, ANOTHER 10 pack of Original Miracle Nipples…no Porsche for me!

Thank you Crittermom for the time I can tell you are spending on this! :Love_Icon Not only just the time typing all this, but the thinking and researching behind it.

[CritterMom]

Heavens! I hope BOTH of you are okay. They might balk at you bringing him to the hospital with you.

As long as he likes the apple juice/calcium slurry, I would continue giving it. You might try to see if you can sneak a little water into it - maybe 25% water and 75% apple juice. It is the sugar in the juice that causes the poops so that would eliminate a little of it. I also think your idea of dusting his monkey biscuits with the calcium is a good way to sneak some in - unless they have changed, they are really porous so they would lend themselves to holding some of the calcium powder. They are dry and absorbent and should also help keep him from getting the diarrhea back. I bet he will really like the Henry's blocks.

Have you ever tried adding anything to the formula? You might want to pick up a little container of whole fat yogurt - vanilla is good. It will add a little added fat, plus a lot of flavor, and the probiotics are always good for the tummy. Obviously not yogurt with fruit chunks! Stoneyfield makes little cartons for babies called Yobaby that have different fruit flavors but no chunks! He may just not like the taste of the FV! You can add 1/2 of a "part" (2 parts water, 1 part formula powder, 1/2 part yogurt).

I asked about the Esbilac because a few years ago we had a disaster with Esbilac - they changed their calcium source to one that baby animals couldn't process and we had MBD babies up to our necks. There have been some reports of problems again recently, so I wanted to know if perhaps Earl had been on it at any point.

I sure hope the little man can get past this soon!

[CritterMom]

Here is another question. Where do you store your Fox Valley powder? The formula companies should recommend that the powder be stored in the least under refrigeration, and really, the freezer is best. It CAN and DOES go rancid. I believe it is fine until the factory seal is broken, and at that point it needs to be kept cold. I made my first squirrel, Mister P, very sick when he was a baby - I thought I was going to lose him. In this case it was Esbilac, but it can happen to FV, too. He may be rejecting it because it tastes bad!

[EarlsMom]

I am full of dread and shaking writing this.
I had a container in my freezer (always keep it there) when I found the squirrel. I thought I had an unopened bag of 20/50 in there too but didn’t. So I used the container of formula which was…likely a year old…and worse…it ‘could’ have been half esbilac. I want desperately to think not because I thought I quit doing the mix. Anyways it certainly could have been rancid. Ugh, it doesn’t end there…I have someone driving to my cottage right now to check my freezer to see if I even opened the bag I got from Henry’s. I honestly cannot remember! This has been a three week gauntlet. I’m exhausted and barely keeping it together. Okay, taking a deep breath, if indeed I’m using the bad stuff, I need to make a four hour round trip tonight or find some goat milk somewhere! There is an alternative formula using that right?

:boohoo:boohoo

[HRT4SQRLS]

Calm down EarlsMom.
If this was in the freezer and it’s uncertain what it is, it could very well be the bad Esbilac from 2 years ago. I would toss all of this right now. I wouldn’t give him another drop of that.

The Temporary Goat Milk Formula

3 parts fresh goats milk
1.5 parts heavy cream
1 part full fat yogurt

I think it is more important to get calcium in him tonight. I don’t think you’re in any shape to be on the road at night searching for goat milk. It can wait until the morning. They usually sleep at night. He seems to be eating solids pretty well so he won’t starve over night. Right now the main thing is hydration and calcium. Don’t go overboard and flood him with calcium tonight. Just give a few doses to keep his calcium up.

Settle down mom. Give him calcium and GO TO BED! Your exhaustion is clouding your ability to function. You will be better after a night of rest.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Treating MBD is not a sprint… it is a marathon.
You won’t cure it overnight. It will take many weeks or even months of slow and steady supplementing with calcium per the MBD protocol.

Again, my best advice is for you to get some rest tonight. You will be no help to him if you are non-functional from exhaustion and worry.

[EarlsMom]

Good evening HRT4SQRLS

Since last posting, I found out I am indeed using the new bag of FV. But I did use the other to start with for almost a week. And…it’s possible I poured the new over what was left in the container. (Which by reason of me ordering a new bag I must not have had much left in the container).

The squirrel has gotten four calcium slurries today (about 71 mg ea, so almost 300 mg) 6:30 was his last one. In addition I’ve seen him chewing on a Tums and the oyster shell, plus I dust his Zupreem blocks which he’s eaten about 7 today. He was last up eating block about a half hour ago. Hydration has been difficult and something I hope will get better now that he has started using the water bottle.

I live a half hour from any grocery store that might have goat’s milk so I won’t have any for his first feeding in the morning. Should I just give him water instead of the FV since it could have some of the old in it?

Per your suggestion, I am headed to bed. Thank you.

[CritterMom]

Oh, hon, I didn't mean to frighten you. Many people keep the formula powder sitting on their counter after opening it for the weeks they are feeding their baby because there is NOTHING to say not to. I have a bag of 20/50 in my freezer right now that has been in there for 2 years and I would very confidently use it tomorrow! It is the stuff that, after opening, shouldn't be left at room temperature for weeks.

And given how many of the monkey biscuits he is chowing down on, he sure isn't going to starve overnight. Or in the morning.

Do you have a Trader Joes near you? They ALWAYS have fresh goats milk. It is called "Meyenberg" and is sold in purple quart size containers. They also have several good full fat yogurts there, and everyone sells heavy cream. I am sure that Whole Foods does too - I can't shop there because I spent too much on Miracle nipples...

The fresh goats milk doesn't last that long in the fridge once opened, so I would suggest you mix up a bunch of formula at one time and pour it into little one-day sized containers and pop them in the freezer, then thaw a new one each day.

You are doing just fine with the calcium. The total amount will start being reduced once he starts showing improvement and also once he starts eating the Henrys blocks.

If you start seeing a whitish powdery residue on his poops - almost someone dusted them with powdered sugar (yum), BTW, it is calcium that has gone through his system unused, and is a sign to reduce the total daily amount a bit. Don't panic if you see it.

[EarlsMom]

Thank you Crittermom and HRT4SQRLS. You are both a welcomed calm influence getting me a bit more focused. I feel like I have some order and a plan now. Helps to know the enemy.

I see gradual improvement in the squirrel as the day progresses but the long overnight (10-12 hrs] seems to leave a window open for a decline. By morning he is lethargic and very wobbly again. I feel like he loses ground in the overnight. Is the calcium he’s getting in the day time depleted mid way through the night? I see improvement in his mobility after his slurry and ibuprofen (~3 hrs later).

The goats milk is proving to be a challenge. I ran around for two hours this morning trying to find some with no luck. Best I could do was a local Amish farmer said he would get his daughter to milk her goat after school today and to come back later. I am an hour drive from anything like a Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods etc. Had I know I’d spend so much time looking I could have just done the round trip and be done. I live in upstate NY dairy country, you’d think that would include a herd of GOATS somewhere!

I appreciate your help and time you’ve spent on this. I’m hoping to get settled in for the long haul. Henry’s order with more nipples, FV, and Henry’s blocks arrives Saturday. No two days deliveries in our neck o’ the woods!

[CritterMom]

That is a long time. Is there any way you can get up once in the middle - probably just for a couple days - to give him a dose of the ibuprophen and a little of your calcium slurry? I am betting that he hurts a bit and it is the ibuprophen, or rather the lack of it, that is causing what you are seeing. You can give him some food then, too - preferably formula if you have some that you are comfortable using.

I am sorry my questions prompted panic. I am trying to figure out what the heck is happening with him. Normally, a squirrel eating formula is pretty much inoculated against MBD because the formula has everything in the right ratio. Customarily we start to see it popping up after they wean because a lot of people immediately start feeding nuts as a solid food and they deplete the calcium and the problems start. When I first started here you could almost predict when the MBD cases would start to roll in - 3-4 weeks after weaning. So Earl developing it while still nursing just didn't make any sense. The only thing that made it make sense was if esbilac - either older stuff that we saw problems with 2 years ago, or new stuff that may or may not be causing issues now - was to blame. That we aren't sure what is happening now with it - and the supply chain issues going on now with covid could certainly cause them to change their calcium source makes it very difficult to figure out, and it isn't like Pet Ag, the company that makes it, is going to announce that once again, they are producing formula that is causing problems. We spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to be amateur detectives here with stuff like that.

To date, nobody has mentioned issues with the FV 20/50, even though their 32/40 formula is VERY problematic. I feel pretty comfortable with it. Now.

[EarlsMom]

Absolutely I’ll get up!

I think there is a likelihood that the formula I had in the freezer may have been mixed with esbilac and would have been a can from 2019, maybe even 2018. Throughout 2019-2020 my three year old release would come in and have ‘coffee’ with me every morning. She loved warm formula, especially when nursing her 3 litters of 5 babies each, so I kept it on hand. It lasted a long time using it only once a day so the FV could have been mixed with some Esbilac.

The thing that I keep stumbling over is even if it did have the bad Esbilac in it, and I added the new FV to the existing, wouldn’t there have been enough nutrition in the bulk of it being FV to slow him from getting MBD, more than the three weeks I’ve had him? Unless the Esbilac prevents nutritional uptake just by being in the mix. :dono: I think it’s a combination of me, the formula, the AP and diarrhea issues all working to deplete him.

Despite not having formula this morning he’s actually doing okay. He’s been eating blocks and Ive added back some dusted veggies (arugula, cabbage, acorn, sweet potato and every squires favorite avocado). He adored the avocado and it may become my ‘peanut butter’ alternative to making those balls with. I think it has a better C:Ph ratio than peanut butter even though it’s not great either. Best of all he is drinking from the water bottle better, although I do have to support him right now. He’s getting more water than I could get in him with the syringe!

Both he and I are having a peaceable day so far…until that formula or goat’s milk arrives.

Any danger in continuing the ibuprofen for a week or longer?

And what age can he safely wean to blocks entirely (Henry’s coming soon)? I think with eating the blocks and having water now he’s about to blow me off!

[CritterMom]

Well, it is nice to keep them on formula as long as possible - though I think my first boy, Mister P, may have pushed that (he finally started to refuse formula at 22 weeks!!! Zeke stopped at 9 weeks which I didn't much like, but he is just fine though he is also TINY by my local standards. The nice thing about the Henry's is that they have everything and more in them - there is enough calcium to counteract our worst impulses as far as treats are concerned. So if you get him consuming 2 of those a day and hopefully he will eat a *little* formula he will be getting what he needs.

I wouldn't want to continue the ibuprophen too long. You might want to start trying to increase the time in between doses and see if he is okay with that. That will reduce the total amount he is getting per day. Try 5 or 6 hours and see if he seems okay.

[EarlsMom]

Update:
We are settling in for the ‘marathon’ of mbd recovery. He is much improved, but certainly not where an 8/9 wk squirrel should be. He is upright, but hunched, as though he can’t support his back fully upright. He has periods of acting like a normal squirrel, will popcorn hop, have the zoomies, and show some playfulness. Other times he’s weak and wobbly, especially crawling out of bed. Getting up midway through the night has helped A LOT with how he is in the morning, much steadier now.

With a new pouch of FV 20/50 and the Henry’s blocks he’s eating well and putting on weight. His intake of formula is significantly diminished though, only taking 3-6 ml a feeding, but eating 2-3 blocks hopefully makes up for that. I offer veggies (arugula, spinach, cabbage, acorn sq, swt potato, cucumber, carrot, chayote) but he paws through to get the cuke and chayote, disregarding the rest. :tap Once he eats his second block of the day I allow him a small piece of dusted avocado or 1/2 segment of tangerine, is that okay?

My biggest problem is figuring out a sufficient daily calcium maintenance dose. I was giving him 71mg/ml every 4 hrs (~285mg /day) but I saw too much fluctuation in mobility between doses and recently increased frequency to every 3 hrs. I also began seeing calcium dusted poops (picture attached) showing up and according to mbd protocol it says I should cut back some, and even cut IN HALF now that he’s eating 2 Henry’s blocks! I’m a little concerned about cutting it back that much. Here’s my thinking (or question to you experts): Keeping the strength the same, would increasing he frequency of the dosing ~2-3 hrs make the calcium more fully bioavailable to the system resulting in less shedding of the excess (as dusty poops); opposed to the body shedding excess because it’s not getting fully used in the longer dosing window [4-5 hrs), resulting in me seeing dusty poops? I hope that made sense. So in essence could I keep the strength I’m using per day, administer it in more frequent intervals and perhaps see little to no dusting of the poops as a result. What would be an appropriate strength to be giving a 250g 9 wk old squirrel for a maintenance dose after the initial crisis?

I also have a concern about him getting sufficient Vit D to support the increase calcium needs. I have been taking him outside for the last three days and sitting in the sunshine for at least 10 minutes with him. Coincidence idk, but he has seemed to be steadier on his feet these last three days. Upstate NY, not being a reliably sunny place, what can I use to supplement. Is the Henry’s block enough for supporting the additional needs aside from typical daily needs?

Apologies for the length of this and if it doesn’t make sense, I’m a little sleep deprived of late!

Thank you Crittermom and HRT4SQRLS for getting us this far! :hug:hug

[CritterMom]

The average amount of calcium in (2) of the Henry's blocks is about 275mg for two blocks. That means that if he is consuming every bit of the blocks he is getting 275 mg of the 300 mg I suggested for his treatment just from the HHB's - no added calcium at all. Other foods he consumes of course affect this. What I WOULD do is assume he is leaving crumbs and arbitrarily say he is getting 200mg of calcium from his 2 (consumed) blocks. So you could divide up balance of 100mg of calcium for his daily rations. I know we are going to have to wean YOU off the calcium for him - it is basically MBD-PTSD - but you should absolutely cut your calcium powder by half and start winding that down, too. That is unused calcium you see in the poop you don't want to see that - it is the body saying "too much." This is the whole idea of the HHBs. Earl will be at least 2 or 3 times his current size and those same blocks will have all of the vitamins and minerals in the proper amounts for him in 2 (and sometimes 3 for a treat) per day plus healthy veggies. He can still have his monkey biscuits - after he eats his HHBs.

The HHBs also have Vitamin D, for the express reason you stated. It is in the correct (for rodents) dose, too.

Is he still getting ibprophen? How often?

[Tuff]

Would plain calcium citrate work? I have that on hand to dust some veggies with? I have infant Tylenol, any chance that could work?

Ugh, he’s not even taking fluids at all.

If this is a MBD issue you need calcium. Run to the store buy tums bring it back crush it up and give it to him. He may not be a instant turn around but the added calcium will perk him up a bit. This is the beginning stage I swear I have been there. Stay calm. He isn’t going to crash with you going to the store.

[EarlsMom]

I know we are going to have to wean YOU off the calcium for him - it is basically MBD-PTSD

Lol, I admit to a little worry but I am going to follow what you say because after all, with your sound advice (and HRT4SQRLS’s) I still have a live squirrel! :dance

Will do some math and mix his slurry under a 100mg and dole that out over the course of a day and wean off…in say…what, a week? Ummm, probably should cut out the third Henry’s block then, eh?

Yes I am still giving him ibuprofen but I have stretched it out to every six hours. Tomorrow I thought I’d stretch it out further to 8 hrs. (I’m needing weaning with this too aren’t I? :grin2 )

:thankyou:thankyou:

[CritterMom]

Why don't you drop what you are adding to 125mg spread through the day plus his blocks. He can also have healthy veggies and his biscuits if he likes. Then look at his poop 2 days later and see what it looks like. Ideally you want normal poops with no white at all. That is his maximum per day. Once you get him to that point, whatever the total number of calcium mgs is all he is able to completely process and so should be his top end. Plus, no more dusting veggies with calcium.

I would like to see his ibuprophen tailing off too, and note any changes you see in his behavior.

Feel free to post that stuff here. Not every post needs to be an emergency and it will be a handy log. Sometimes sitting and re-reading the threads sparks a thought that might otherwise not ever happen, and sometimes those lead to breakthroughs.

[EarlsMom]

So….I’m not having much trouble cutting back the calcium. I have still seen flecks in his poops at around 114 mg/day so have cut that back to 85mg total. He will eat a third Henry’s if I give it to him. Should I just let him have a third block and drop the added calcium altogether?

My squirrel has had two awesome mornings only to do a kind of ‘crash’ by afternoon. He becomes lethargic, staying on the heat and just watches me. I think it is related to withdrawing the ibuprofen. I was trying to move to two doses a day, but I don’t think he can go that long between. He lays on his blanket, his eyes look half closed and the tips of his ears kind of curl like he is wincing. About two hours after getting a dose I’ve got a new squirrel! Bouncing, eating, engaging, wanting to groom…me, etc. Can I keep him on…say…an rolling 10 hour schedule instead of every 8 hours. He doesn’t seem to be able to make it to 12 hours. Should I switch to something else to give his system a breaK?

His mobility and balance have vastly improved in the last couple days. I hate seeing these setbacks. I wonder if he can stay on an analgesic a little longer would he gain a bit more strength and be able to tolerate some discomfort when he does get weaned off. But then I worry about his little system that has gone through so much in last couple weeks. :dono Is daily fluctuation normal? Is this the marathon part?

BTW, witnessing the transformation in just a week’s time is incredible! Never could I have hoped for so much so soon! You guys Rock! :bowdown

[Tuff]

So….I’m not having much trouble cutting back the calcium. I have still seen flecks in his poops at around 114 mg/day so have cut that back to 85mg total. He will eat a third Henry’s if I give it to him. Should I just let him have a third block and drop the added calcium altogether?

My squirrel has had two awesome mornings only to do a kind of ‘crash’ by afternoon. He becomes lethargic, staying on the heat and just watches me. I think it is related to withdrawing the ibuprofen. I was trying to move to two doses a day, but I don’t think he can go that long between. He lays on his blanket, his eyes look half closed and the tips of his ears kind of curl like he is wincing. About two hours after getting a dose I’ve got a new squirrel! Bouncing, eating, engaging, wanting to groom…me, etc. Can I keep him on…say…an rolling 10 hour schedule instead of every 8 hours. He doesn’t seem to be able to make it to 12 hours. Should I switch to something else to give his system a breaK?

His mobility and balance have vastly improved in the last couple days. I hate seeing these setbacks. I wonder if he can stay on an analgesic a little longer would he gain a bit more strength and be able to tolerate some discomfort when he does get weaned off. But then I worry about his little system that has gone through so much in last couple weeks. :dono Is daily fluctuation normal? Is this the marathon part?

BTW, witnessing the transformation in just a week’s time is incredible! Never could I have hoped for so much so soon! You guys Rock! :bowdown

Praying for your little guy!!!!

[CritterMom]

So….I’m not having much trouble cutting back the calcium. I have still seen flecks in his poops at around 114 mg/day so have cut that back to 85mg total. He will eat a third Henry’s if I give it to him. Should I just let him have a third block and drop the added calcium altogether?

My squirrel has had two awesome mornings only to do a kind of ‘crash’ by afternoon. He becomes lethargic, staying on the heat and just watches me. I think it is related to withdrawing the ibuprofen. I was trying to move to two doses a day, but I don’t think he can go that long between. He lays on his blanket, his eyes look half closed and the tips of his ears kind of curl like he is wincing. About two hours after getting a dose I’ve got a new squirrel! Bouncing, eating, engaging, wanting to groom…me, etc. Can I keep him on…say…an rolling 10 hour schedule instead of every 8 hours. He doesn’t seem to be able to make it to 12 hours. Should I switch to something else to give his system a breaK?

His mobility and balance have vastly improved in the last couple days. I hate seeing these setbacks. I wonder if he can stay on an analgesic a little longer would he gain a bit more strength and be able to tolerate some discomfort when he does get weaned off. But then I worry about his little system that has gone through so much in last couple weeks. :dono Is daily fluctuation normal? Is this the marathon part?

BTW, witnessing the transformation in just a week’s time is incredible! Never could I have hoped for so much so soon! You guys Rock! :bowdown

Go ahead and give him the additional ibuprophen. The dose you started out at is already a low dose so he should be fine. But you DO want to do it in conjunction with something else. It is clear that something is hurting him. He must have some sort of inflammation somewhere that the ibuprophen is alleviating or he wouldn't perk up the way he does after he gets a dose. That means that it is possible that the bouncing, running, and playing he does after his dose is also keeping the pain going on longer than it should. I always tell people who have a squirrel that hurt it's paw or leg to only give pain meds if they ALSO keep the squirrel quiet and caged in such a way to prevent them from overusing the hurt part because it suddenly doesn't hurt thanks to the meds. If they can't do that, then not giving pain meds provides an incentive to the squirrel to REST that area because it hurts if they run and play. Talk about tough love - but since you cannot reason with them, sometimes you have to get tough! So hanging with mom, getting lovins, grooming you and himself is okay but bouncing off the walls and squirreling around is not. No doctor would tell you to pop a painkiller and then go for a run on your sprained ankle!

The next time he "crashes" and is just lying around, will he let you go over him thoroughly? Manipulate his limbs, palpate his entire body gently - see if you can find any place that he doesn't want you to mess with. If he has an injury someplace we need to know that. There is obviously something going on in there.

I would rather see him getting supplemental calcium than a third Henrys RIGHT NOW. The vitamin/mineral dosage in the Henry's blocks is based on an approximately 1 pound squirrel. They were developed in Florida, land of tiny squirrels. In Maine, we call 1 pound squirrels either teenagers or half a squirrel! But Earl is only about half that weight now. So he would be getting the calcium he needs but also a bunch of other vitamins and minerals that are a little more than he needs. Once the boy beefs up a little more - with age - he can have his third block. Just keep cutting that additional calcium dose down until you stop seeing the excess in his poop. He CAN have his other blocks, too if he still likes them.

:Love_Icon Earl