Please My Squirrel Needs somebody experienced fast!

[CritterMom]

Yes, absolutely. Is it just a powder? Do you have any info on how much powder equals how many milligrams calcium or do I need to hunt that down?

I am not comfortable with the Tylenol and don't have any dosage info on it. The ibuprophen would certainly work better.

OK, I reread your thread and saw something I missed yesterday. I see you are using Zupreem primate chow - the "monkey biscuits." That is kind of old school rehabbing and I really don't have much info on it and how much it is supplemented. Certainly primates and rodents are very different.

Do me a favor - do you have any peanut butter? Put a bit on your finger and see if he will eat it.

[EarlsMom]

Whoops, forgot to add he was 220g this morning.

It’s just a plain powder. I don’t have the original packing either and I just tried to look back through my Amazon orders and must not have gotten it through them.

Shows no interest in the tums/chow/peanut butter ball or the plain peanut butter. He promptly wiped it off his lips when I put a dab on after he refused.

[CritterMom]

I have the info on the calcium citrate. Do you have any peanut or almond butter or maybe the nutella?

[EarlsMom]

Wow you are amazing!

Yes have some of both (ccalcium citrate and peanut butter) on hand.

[CritterMom]

Put a little blob of each on your finger and hold it under his nose and see if he tries either.

BTW, I sent you the infant ibuprophen dosing via PM. We don't dose meds on the open board.

[CritterMom]

So the method to my madness to see if he likes peanut butter or nutella or almond butter is to come up with a way to get him to take his calcium without having to force it into him.

I have done some hunting online and the potency of the calcium citrate I am finding is all over the place. If you have PLAIN calcium citrate that does not have added vitamin D, check the label and see how many teaspoons equals how many milligrams. Basically, you want to try to get about 300 mg per day into him, broken into as many small doses as you can, not one large dose. So for example, let's say 1/2 teaspoon of the powder is about 300 mg of calcium. Put that in a dish and mix in some of whatever he likes best - peanut butter, almond butter, nutella, whatever. I would start with just enough of the nut butter to be able to form the mixture into tiny balls, but if he doesn't take to it you may need to add more of the nut butter. If it is too sticky, giving it to him may consist of just smearing it on your finger and letting him lick it off. Getting that amount into him for a couple days should tell us if he does indeed have MBD. It won't cure him - he will need to stay at that level a bit longer and then start very slowly reducing it. Feeding him the Henry's will help tremendously - it was designed specifically to avoid and treat MBD so it has a pretty good amount of calcium in it as well.

I think the infant ibuprophen will help, too - if he is sore he is going to want to not eat, and if you can relieve that he should start up again.

Another thing that may help is to return his heating pad. If you can place it under the cage bottom so he can't chew it but so the heat radiates up, that, too, will help with pain relief and it is just soothing to them.

Don't bother answering now, he needs your attention, but when you get a moment, answer this for me - I know you are giving him Fox Valley 20/50. Has he been on that since you got him or was he on another formula earlier? If so, what was it?

I hope he is holding his own.

[EarlsMom]

Just reading this, as I myself, am at the hospital hooked up for my own calcium infusion. Wish I could run a line to my little guy.

This morning I’m even more convinced it’s MBD. I looked up online for the calcium citrate I ‘think’ I bought. The label said 2380 mg calcium per tsp BUT further reading saw only 570 mg of actual elemental calcium. So this morning I mixed up a slurry of 1/4 tsp of calcium and two ml of diluted apple juice and gave him half. He loved it! (He has no interest in peanut butter yet). I think that’s about 75ish milligrams. I done that three times since 8am. I am concerned using the apple juice is going to loosen up his stools and that’s a road I don’t want to go down again! Considering the gravity of getting calcium into him it was the lesser of two evils. If he likes the slurry, what do you think of sticking with that? I will still do the balls up with the hope he’ll switch for the long term.

I’ll pick up some Almond butter to try on the way home. What about a mushy fruit or is that too much sugar?

I have been dosing him with the ibuprofen and can tell it’s working, thank you.

Arriving home, I was able configure the Ferret Nation cage here (with wider spacing) and use the heating pad on the upper shelf (sliding the pad under the fleece covering) so he hasn’t gone without.

Re: FV 20/50 -I only used the FV 20/50 because I was unsure of the expiration date of the Esbilac I had on hand because it came from a rehabber’s bulk supply. The trouble wasn’t with the FV but with me. It had been a couple years since I’d had a squirrel and I was trying to work with what I could get a hold of at my summer cottage. The baby is paying the price for my ineptness. I’m heartbroken.

I have Henry’s blocks coming in a few days. Plus, ANOTHER 10 pack of Original Miracle Nipples…no Porsche for me!

Thank you Crittermom for the time I can tell you are spending on this! Not only just the time typing all this, but the thinking and researching behind it.

[CritterMom]

Heavens! I hope BOTH of you are okay. They might balk at you bringing him to the hospital with you.

As long as he likes the apple juice/calcium slurry, I would continue giving it. You might try to see if you can sneak a little water into it - maybe 25% water and 75% apple juice. It is the sugar in the juice that causes the poops so that would eliminate a little of it. I also think your idea of dusting his monkey biscuits with the calcium is a good way to sneak some in - unless they have changed, they are really porous so they would lend themselves to holding some of the calcium powder. They are dry and absorbent and should also help keep him from getting the diarrhea back. I bet he will really like the Henry's blocks.

Have you ever tried adding anything to the formula? You might want to pick up a little container of whole fat yogurt - vanilla is good. It will add a little added fat, plus a lot of flavor, and the probiotics are always good for the tummy. Obviously not yogurt with fruit chunks! Stoneyfield makes little cartons for babies called Yobaby that have different fruit flavors but no chunks! He may just not like the taste of the FV! You can add 1/2 of a "part" (2 parts water, 1 part formula powder, 1/2 part yogurt).

I asked about the Esbilac because a few years ago we had a disaster with Esbilac - they changed their calcium source to one that baby animals couldn't process and we had MBD babies up to our necks. There have been some reports of problems again recently, so I wanted to know if perhaps Earl had been on it at any point.

I sure hope the little man can get past this soon!

[CritterMom]

Here is another question. Where do you store your Fox Valley powder? The formula companies should recommend that the powder be stored in the least under refrigeration, and really, the freezer is best. It CAN and DOES go rancid. I believe it is fine until the factory seal is broken, and at that point it needs to be kept cold. I made my first squirrel, Mister P, very sick when he was a baby - I thought I was going to lose him. In this case it was Esbilac, but it can happen to FV, too. He may be rejecting it because it tastes bad!

[EarlsMom]

I am full of dread and shaking writing this.
I had a container in my freezer (always keep it there) when I found the squirrel. I thought I had an unopened bag of 20/50 in there too but didn’t. So I used the container of formula which was…likely a year old…and worse…it ‘could’ have been half esbilac. I want desperately to think not because I thought I quit doing the mix. Anyways it certainly could have been rancid. Ugh, it doesn’t end there…I have someone driving to my cottage right now to check my freezer to see if I even opened the bag I got from Henry’s. I honestly cannot remember! This has been a three week gauntlet. I’m exhausted and barely keeping it together. Okay, taking a deep breath, if indeed I’m using the bad stuff, I need to make a four hour round trip tonight or find some goat milk somewhere! There is an alternative formula using that right?

[HRT4SQRLS]

Calm down EarlsMom.
If this was in the freezer and it’s uncertain what it is, it could very well be the bad Esbilac from 2 years ago. I would toss all of this right now. I wouldn’t give him another drop of that.

The Temporary Goat Milk Formula

3 parts fresh goats milk
1.5 parts heavy cream
1 part full fat yogurt

I think it is more important to get calcium in him tonight. I don’t think you’re in any shape to be on the road at night searching for goat milk. It can wait until the morning. They usually sleep at night. He seems to be eating solids pretty well so he won’t starve over night. Right now the main thing is hydration and calcium. Don’t go overboard and flood him with calcium tonight. Just give a few doses to keep his calcium up.

Settle down mom. Give him calcium and GO TO BED! Your exhaustion is clouding your ability to function. You will be better after a night of rest.

[HRT4SQRLS]

Treating MBD is not a sprint… it is a marathon.
You won’t cure it overnight. It will take many weeks or even months of slow and steady supplementing with calcium per the MBD protocol.

Again, my best advice is for you to get some rest tonight. You will be no help to him if you are non-functional from exhaustion and worry.

[EarlsMom]

Good evening HRT4SQRLS

Since last posting, I found out I am indeed using the new bag of FV. But I did use the other to start with for almost a week. And…it’s possible I poured the new over what was left in the container. (Which by reason of me ordering a new bag I must not have had much left in the container).

The squirrel has gotten four calcium slurries today (about 71 mg ea, so almost 300 mg) 6:30 was his last one. In addition I’ve seen him chewing on a Tums and the oyster shell, plus I dust his Zupreem blocks which he’s eaten about 7 today. He was last up eating block about a half hour ago. Hydration has been difficult and something I hope will get better now that he has started using the water bottle.

I live a half hour from any grocery store that might have goat’s milk so I won’t have any for his first feeding in the morning. Should I just give him water instead of the FV since it could have some of the old in it?

Per your suggestion, I am headed to bed. Thank you.

[CritterMom]

Oh, hon, I didn't mean to frighten you. Many people keep the formula powder sitting on their counter after opening it for the weeks they are feeding their baby because there is NOTHING to say not to. I have a bag of 20/50 in my freezer right now that has been in there for 2 years and I would very confidently use it tomorrow! It is the stuff that, after opening, shouldn't be left at room temperature for weeks.

And given how many of the monkey biscuits he is chowing down on, he sure isn't going to starve overnight. Or in the morning.

Do you have a Trader Joes near you? They ALWAYS have fresh goats milk. It is called "Meyenberg" and is sold in purple quart size containers. They also have several good full fat yogurts there, and everyone sells heavy cream. I am sure that Whole Foods does too - I can't shop there because I spent too much on Miracle nipples...

The fresh goats milk doesn't last that long in the fridge once opened, so I would suggest you mix up a bunch of formula at one time and pour it into little one-day sized containers and pop them in the freezer, then thaw a new one each day.

You are doing just fine with the calcium. The total amount will start being reduced once he starts showing improvement and also once he starts eating the Henrys blocks.

If you start seeing a whitish powdery residue on his poops - almost someone dusted them with powdered sugar (yum), BTW, it is calcium that has gone through his system unused, and is a sign to reduce the total daily amount a bit. Don't panic if you see it.

[EarlsMom]

Thank you Crittermom and HRT4SQRLS. You are both a welcomed calm influence getting me a bit more focused. I feel like I have some order and a plan now. Helps to know the enemy.

I see gradual improvement in the squirrel as the day progresses but the long overnight (10-12 hrs] seems to leave a window open for a decline. By morning he is lethargic and very wobbly again. I feel like he loses ground in the overnight. Is the calcium he’s getting in the day time depleted mid way through the night? I see improvement in his mobility after his slurry and ibuprofen (~3 hrs later).

The goats milk is proving to be a challenge. I ran around for two hours this morning trying to find some with no luck. Best I could do was a local Amish farmer said he would get his daughter to milk her goat after school today and to come back later. I am an hour drive from anything like a Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods etc. Had I know I’d spend so much time looking I could have just done the round trip and be done. I live in upstate NY dairy country, you’d think that would include a herd of GOATS somewhere!

I appreciate your help and time you’ve spent on this. I’m hoping to get settled in for the long haul. Henry’s order with more nipples, FV, and Henry’s blocks arrives Saturday. No two days deliveries in our neck o’ the woods!

[CritterMom]

That is a long time. Is there any way you can get up once in the middle - probably just for a couple days - to give him a dose of the ibuprophen and a little of your calcium slurry? I am betting that he hurts a bit and it is the ibuprophen, or rather the lack of it, that is causing what you are seeing. You can give him some food then, too - preferably formula if you have some that you are comfortable using.

I am sorry my questions prompted panic. I am trying to figure out what the heck is happening with him. Normally, a squirrel eating formula is pretty much inoculated against MBD because the formula has everything in the right ratio. Customarily we start to see it popping up after they wean because a lot of people immediately start feeding nuts as a solid food and they deplete the calcium and the problems start. When I first started here you could almost predict when the MBD cases would start to roll in - 3-4 weeks after weaning. So Earl developing it while still nursing just didn't make any sense. The only thing that made it make sense was if esbilac - either older stuff that we saw problems with 2 years ago, or new stuff that may or may not be causing issues now - was to blame. That we aren't sure what is happening now with it - and the supply chain issues going on now with covid could certainly cause them to change their calcium source makes it very difficult to figure out, and it isn't like Pet Ag, the company that makes it, is going to announce that once again, they are producing formula that is causing problems. We spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to be amateur detectives here with stuff like that.

To date, nobody has mentioned issues with the FV 20/50, even though their 32/40 formula is VERY problematic. I feel pretty comfortable with it. Now.

[EarlsMom]

Absolutely I’ll get up!

I think there is a likelihood that the formula I had in the freezer may have been mixed with esbilac and would have been a can from 2019, maybe even 2018. Throughout 2019-2020 my three year old release would come in and have ‘coffee’ with me every morning. She loved warm formula, especially when nursing her 3 litters of 5 babies each, so I kept it on hand. It lasted a long time using it only once a day so the FV could have been mixed with some Esbilac.

The thing that I keep stumbling over is even if it did have the bad Esbilac in it, and I added the new FV to the existing, wouldn’t there have been enough nutrition in the bulk of it being FV to slow him from getting MBD, more than the three weeks I’ve had him? Unless the Esbilac prevents nutritional uptake just by being in the mix. : I think it’s a combination of me, the formula, the AP and diarrhea issues all working to deplete him.

Despite not having formula this morning he’s actually doing okay. He’s been eating blocks and Ive added back some dusted veggies (arugula, cabbage, acorn, sweet potato and every squires favorite avocado). He adored the avocado and it may become my ‘peanut butter’ alternative to making those balls with. I think it has a better C:Ph ratio than peanut butter even though it’s not great either. Best of all he is drinking from the water bottle better, although I do have to support him right now. He’s getting more water than I could get in him with the syringe!

Both he and I are having a peaceable day so far…until that formula or goat’s milk arrives.

Any danger in continuing the ibuprofen for a week or longer?

And what age can he safely wean to blocks entirely (Henry’s coming soon)? I think with eating the blocks and having water now he’s about to blow me off!

[CritterMom]

Well, it is nice to keep them on formula as long as possible - though I think my first boy, Mister P, may have pushed that (he finally started to refuse formula at 22 weeks!!! Zeke stopped at 9 weeks which I didn't much like, but he is just fine though he is also TINY by my local standards. The nice thing about the Henry's is that they have everything and more in them - there is enough calcium to counteract our worst impulses as far as treats are concerned. So if you get him consuming 2 of those a day and hopefully he will eat a *little* formula he will be getting what he needs.

I wouldn't want to continue the ibuprophen too long. You might want to start trying to increase the time in between doses and see if he is okay with that. That will reduce the total amount he is getting per day. Try 5 or 6 hours and see if he seems okay.

[EarlsMom]

Update:
We are settling in for the ‘marathon’ of mbd recovery. He is much improved, but certainly not where an 8/9 wk squirrel should be. He is upright, but hunched, as though he can’t support his back fully upright. He has periods of acting like a normal squirrel, will popcorn hop, have the zoomies, and show some playfulness. Other times he’s weak and wobbly, especially crawling out of bed. Getting up midway through the night has helped A LOT with how he is in the morning, much steadier now.

With a new pouch of FV 20/50 and the Henry’s blocks he’s eating well and putting on weight. His intake of formula is significantly diminished though, only taking 3-6 ml a feeding, but eating 2-3 blocks hopefully makes up for that. I offer veggies (arugula, spinach, cabbage, acorn sq, swt potato, cucumber, carrot, chayote) but he paws through to get the cuke and chayote, disregarding the rest. Once he eats his second block of the day I allow him a small piece of dusted avocado or 1/2 segment of tangerine, is that okay?

My biggest problem is figuring out a sufficient daily calcium maintenance dose. I was giving him 71mg/ml every 4 hrs (~285mg /day) but I saw too much fluctuation in mobility between doses and recently increased frequency to every 3 hrs. I also began seeing calcium dusted poops (picture attached) showing up and according to mbd protocol it says I should cut back some, and even cut IN HALF now that he’s eating 2 Henry’s blocks! I’m a little concerned about cutting it back that much. Here’s my thinking (or question to you experts): Keeping the strength the same, would increasing he frequency of the dosing ~2-3 hrs make the calcium more fully bioavailable to the system resulting in less shedding of the excess (as dusty poops); opposed to the body shedding excess because it’s not getting fully used in the longer dosing window [4-5 hrs), resulting in me seeing dusty poops? I hope that made sense. So in essence could I keep the strength I’m using per day, administer it in more frequent intervals and perhaps see little to no dusting of the poops as a result. What would be an appropriate strength to be giving a 250g 9 wk old squirrel for a maintenance dose after the initial crisis?

I also have a concern about him getting sufficient Vit D to support the increase calcium needs. I have been taking him outside for the last three days and sitting in the sunshine for at least 10 minutes with him. Coincidence idk, but he has seemed to be steadier on his feet these last three days. Upstate NY, not being a reliably sunny place, what can I use to supplement. Is the Henry’s block enough for supporting the additional needs aside from typical daily needs?

Apologies for the length of this and if it doesn’t make sense, I’m a little sleep deprived of late!

Thank you Crittermom and HRT4SQRLS for getting us this far!

[CritterMom]

The average amount of calcium in (2) of the Henry's blocks is about 275mg for two blocks. That means that if he is consuming every bit of the blocks he is getting 275 mg of the 300 mg I suggested for his treatment just from the HHB's - no added calcium at all. Other foods he consumes of course affect this. What I WOULD do is assume he is leaving crumbs and arbitrarily say he is getting 200mg of calcium from his 2 (consumed) blocks. So you could divide up balance of 100mg of calcium for his daily rations. I know we are going to have to wean YOU off the calcium for him - it is basically MBD-PTSD - but you should absolutely cut your calcium powder by half and start winding that down, too. That is unused calcium you see in the poop you don't want to see that - it is the body saying "too much." This is the whole idea of the HHBs. Earl will be at least 2 or 3 times his current size and those same blocks will have all of the vitamins and minerals in the proper amounts for him in 2 (and sometimes 3 for a treat) per day plus healthy veggies. He can still have his monkey biscuits - after he eats his HHBs.

The HHBs also have Vitamin D, for the express reason you stated. It is in the correct (for rodents) dose, too.

Is he still getting ibprophen? How often?