Eye infection, lethargic for 3 days in a row, PLEASE HELP

[Salty]

Not sure what i am looking at, but... His lower teeth were split like this \ /, now they are straight like this ||, sitting next to each other with no gap in between. Not sure if the top part got broken off, and i am looking at the lower part of teeth, or what has happened.

Looks like his eating changed, looks like he is avoiding harder foods.

[Salty]

Is Kuzia drinking water regularly and urinating normally?

I think he is urinating normally, cant say how much he is drinking, but will keep my eye on it.

He ate very little of the HH block earlier, like 1/8th.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Not sure what i am looking at, but... His lower teeth were split like this \ /, now they are straight like this ||, sitting next to each other with no gap in between. Not sure if the top part got broken off, and i am looking at the lower part of teeth, or what has happened.

Looks like his eating changed, looks like he is avoiding harder foods.

Hi Salty:
Would you please post some photos of this?
Thanks!
StS

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi SamtheSquirrel! He does not eat Teklad Blocks. Anyway, i did not keep them in the freezer, don't know if they are any good anymore. His diet is as before, he gets three Henrys Picky Blocks and .4 grams of Henrys calcium mixed with water twice a day. Before he was getting .8 twice, but we cut the dosage, don't know if it was such a good idea.

Hi Salty:
What does Kuzia weigh now? With the consumption of two full Henry's Blocks (HHBs), Kuzia will be getting 275mg of Elemental Calcium according to the Supplement Facts on the label so even if he was actually getting only 250mg of Elemental Calcium; Kuzia is meeting his Maintenance (everyday) Calcium requirement which would be around 250mg! Assuming that the goal at this point is to provide an additional 200mg of Elemental Calcium, the third HHB is providing around 130mg and the 400mg (0.4 grams) of Henry's Calcium Carbonate will supply an additional 160mg of Elemental Calcium (40% of 400mg) so he is really doing well with BOTH his Maintenance Requirements AND his supplemental (treatment) Calcium as his total Elemental Calcium intake with three HHBs plus 400mg of Calcium carbonate is a TOTAL of 540mg of Elemental Calcium daily! Again, I would recommend that the Henry's Calcium Carbonate be DIVIDED INTO in 4-5 small doses rather than the two doses that you are currently using! This will MAXIMIZE ABSORPTION of the Calcium as well as the smaller portions will make it less likely that Kuzia might reject a dose!

Thanks for the update on Kuzia and please provide further updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Salty]

Thank you SamtheSquirrel!

I will try to get the picture of Kuzia's teeth.

We are going to try splitting the calcium to 4 times a day, because now he is getting used to it somewhat, but the problem is when i extract the syringe, he only swallows some of it, and some of it he just holds in his mouth, waiting for us to let him go, so he can get rid of it, by wiping his mouth on furniture fabric or some blanket. Hopefully, if we give smaller dose, he will swallow all of it, and, like you said, it won't be so stressful for him.

For now, i think, he will also consume much less of the HH blocks, because of the pain. If this is how it is going to be, maybe i should increase the dosage of calcium accordingly. Maybe to 1.6 grams a day, split by 4 times.

[Salty]

Hello! I did not manage to get a picture of upper teeth, but here is older picture of it. As you can see there is a gap between the teeth. Now, there is no gap, the teeth are right next to each other, as they always were with him. We only noticed the gap when his troubles with eye and and all other problems started. Before, his upper teeth seemed to have no gap.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hello! I did not manage to get a picture of upper teeth, but here is older picture of it. As you can see there is a gap between the teeth. Now, there is no gap, the teeth are right next to each other, as they always were with him. We only noticed the gap when his troubles with eye and and all other problems started. Before, his upper teeth seemed to have no gap.

Hi Salty:
I cannot definitively explain why there would be a wider than normal gap between the upper incisors that would be present at one time and then later appear resolved. One possibility might be that there was no change in the separation of the upper incisors at the root region but Kuzia's upper incisors may have been longer at the time your took the original photo which would tend to accentuate any gap that did exist the two upper incisors were viewed with a focus on their tips! It may be that there was some relative movement in the root regions from MBD that has since resolved and the teeth fortunately resumed their normal alignment with each other. Another possibility might be a dental infection involving the the root region of one or both upper incisors that may have rendered the root region somewhat unstable. Incidentally, because of the fact that the two ends of the lower jaws located between the lower incisors are not usually fused together and there is usually some noticeable relative motion possible between the lower incisor but very little between the upper incisors.

Are you still seeing the white tears and are those seen in both eyes or just one eye; and f one, which one is it? My concern with white tears is that the white fluid may not really be tears at all or may not be just tears that happen to be colored rather than clear! When I see white tears I suspect the presence of pus which is usually associated with infection. One of the common infections that may cause pus to be seen draining from around an eye (or both eyes) are dental infections that have spread into the nasal passages and even surrounding bone and sinuses. Did you complete the course of Amoxicillin plus Clavulanate that was dosed for you earlier in Kuzia's thread? Odontomas are a particular form of dental associated tumors that are NOT cancer and are made up of the hard dense materials that make up the teeth. These commonly involve the upper incisors and can get infected! Did or does Kuzia have any apparent problems breathing through his nose or do you ever see Kuzia trying to breath through his mouth. Mouth breathing by a Squirrel is always abnormal!

I'm glad that you are going to divide the daily extra Calcium into 4 (preferably even 5) small doses! Again, this will help facilitate absorption and will tend to be more acceptable to Kuzia to consume!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Salty]

Hello SamtheSquirrel! I am sorry for the confusion - a meant Lower teeth, not upper. His upper teeth are, what seems to be, broken off. He only have very short, upper teeth with serrated edges.
Here is the picture.


The one time i saw a white tear, recently, it was on his good eye, and it shed as i was watching, it was creamy white, did not see any yellow in it. Pus has to be yellowish, or not pure white, right?

Did not see Kuzia breathe through mouth, or scratching nose, or some other problem with nose.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hello SamtheSquirrel! I am sorry for the confusion - a meant Lower teeth, not upper. His upper teeth are, what seems to be, broken off. He only have very short, upper teeth with serrated edges.

Hi Salty:
Thanks for responding! Just a few comments while I have a moment at work.

In the case of the lower incisors; there is often some variability in what is termed the diastema or space that exists between the two incisors because of the fact that the "chin" region of the mandible in Squirrels is usually not fused bone and this permits some small relative motion between left and right sides of the mandible and each lower incisor would move with its respective mandibular half.

The one time i saw a white tear, recently, it was on his good eye, and it shed as i was watching, it was creamy white, did not see any yellow in it. Pus has to be yellowish, or not pure white, right?

Did not see Kuzia breathe through mouth, or scratching nose, or some other problem with nose.

The most common color of pus is probably just as you mentioned (having at least a yellow tinge) but I have seen where tiny droplets of whitish fluid that appeared to leaking from around the eye was proven to at least contain pus (pus is fluid usually containing bacteria and cellular debris) by visualizing it under the microscope. This fluid in those cases was probably diluted by tears and mucus and other secretions such as those from the Hardarian glands which are at the "back" of the eyeball. This all apparently resulted in a more whitish or creamy white appearance rather than a definitively yellow color. Pus from a dental infection can drain from around the eye through extension of the infection into the eye socket or from purulent fluid passing in reverse flow up the nasolacrimal duct that normally drains tears into the nose. The mention of this possibility for whitish tears was NOT meant to a "diagnosis from afar;" only something to be considered. In furtherance of investigating that possibility was my question regarding mouth breathing or nasal congestion or issues! All that you report in that regard seems IMHO to be quite encouraging!

Please continue the updates about Kuzia!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Salty]

I think his lower teeth have the 'split', again. Not hundred percent sure though, must double check.

[Mel1959]

Hello SamtheSquirrel! I am sorry for the confusion - a meant Lower teeth, not upper. His upper teeth are, what seems to be, broken off. He only have very short, upper teeth with serrated edges.
Here is the picture.


The one time i saw a white tear, recently, it was on his good eye, and it shed as i was watching, it was creamy white, did not see any yellow in it. Pus has to be yellowish, or not pure white, right?

Did not see Kuzia breathe through mouth, or scratching nose, or some other problem with nose.

Is this a picture of his upper or lower teeth?

[Salty]

Hello Mel1959! Yes, these are his lower teeth. I will try to make some more current pictures. This picture is from January.

[Mel1959]

This has been going on for a very, very long time. I’m going to suggest……again…..that you take Kuzia to a vet. All the symptoms that Kuzia has experienced can be attributed to odontomas. Because of the proximity of the teeth to the nasal passages and eyes, all can be affected by the growth of an odontoma. The white tears indicate that Kuzia is still experiencing pain. Please, PLEASE make the trip to a squirrel safe vet and ask for an X-ray to confirm whether odontomas might be present. Dr. Emerson will confer with other vets if necessary, as she is the expert in odontoma surgery.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Salty:
How is Kuzia doing?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Salty]

Hi Salty:
How is Kuzia doing?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Hello! Sorry i was not visiting the forum for a while! Kuzia is doing the about the same, some days more active, some days less. Cant say he is back to normal. Still some white discharge from time to time. New thing is, some days, he can sleep as far into the day as 12 o'clock. Still feeding him calcium. Lost some weight. Will play for a little bit, will go and sit in his outside cage a little bit.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Salty and thanks for the update! I'm sorry that Kuzia has not recovered! Has there been any recent possibility of Kuzia being seen by a Veterinarian? As I have stated before and others as well; it would be best for Kuzia to be evaluated by a Squirrel friendly and at least rodent savvy Veterinarian! I still suspect a dental issue and the same culprits come to mind again; namely an odontoma and/or dental infection such as an abscess! Odontomas of the upper teeth often erode into the nasal passages, sinuses and can even involve the eye socket and the tear producing and drainage system! Also, how are things coming with Kuzia's possibility of having MBD? What constitutes Kuzia's current diet and Calcium supplementation?
Please keep on with the updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Salty]

Hello Samthesquirrel2018! It is hard to say for sure about mdb. Every day he gets 660 to 990 mg (1/2 to 3/4 tsp) of carbonate calcium. As for the blocks, he mostly just shreds them, taking out little pieces of nuts that are in there. Every once in a while he will eat most of the block, but he never eats it whole. No interest in Tekland blocks. His diet is the same as before, (mostly fruits, oranges, mandarins, persimmons, cherry, grape, mango) only new thing is he started eating papaya, which is a good thing.

I was wondering, considering his mdb situation, which can last up to a year or more, would it be ok to give him some avocado from time to time?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hello Samthesquirrel2018! It is hard to say for sure about mdb. Every day he gets 660 to 990 mg (1/2 to 3/4 tsp) of carbonate calcium. As for the blocks, he mostly just shreds them, taking out little pieces of nuts that are in there. Every once in a while he will eat most of the block, but he never eats it whole. No interest in Tekland blocks. His diet is the same as before, (mostly fruits, oranges, mandarins, persimmons, cherry, grape, mango) only new thing is he started eating papaya, which is a good thing.

I was wondering, considering his mdb situation, which can last up to a year or more, would it be ok to give him some avocado from time to time?

Hi Salty:
It might be worth trying to mix some water sweetened with Molasses (mix one cup of water with 1 teaspoonful of molasses) into a soft Henry's Block! Just use enough of the water/molasses mixture to get the Block into a consistency of a thick dough! Avocado does not have a favorable Calcium to Phosphorus Ration so if you feel inclined to give this Kuzia; please give it as a relatively rare treat and NOT ojn a regular basis! Also, do NOT give the skins or the pits!

Another option that you might try for Blocks in addition to the Henry's Blocks but instead of the Teklad Blocks (if he's not eating those anyway) would be Mazuri Rat and Mouse Diet. Ordinarily I do not recommend these Blocks for older Squirrels as it contains a relatively high protein concentration and this is probably not ideal for older animals as the higher protein places some risk on the kidneys BUT MBD risks are; IMHNVO (in my humble non-vet opinion); boosting Kuzia nutritional support with quality Blocks would be the worth its use if the little guy will eat them! Mazuri Blocks can be free-fed as can the Teklad Blocks (you can give Kuzia as many as he wants!

Please keep on with the updates.

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[BigNibbler]

1] Is he getting sun regularly?
2] Are you open to changing his diet, particularly from Calcium Carbonate to Calcium Citrate?
3] How much time does he get outside of a cage?
4] If I were to see his food array, how would it be arranged? Physically laid out I mean?
5] I speed read and think I had read your thread.. but to sum up for new visitors - has he been to a vet at all? X Rays?
6] Been on antibiotics?
7] How old is he? Is he a singleton or does he have playmates.
8] How much time daily do you spend with him?

I had started some diet threads, but did not see much interest here on TSB about them.
They centered on my trying to find a calcium delivery diet to help MySquirrel a nearly 12 year old female that has since turned into a nearly 13 year old!
She had a UTI which was a set back, I think due to my use of seriously outdated antibiotic, or it being for too short a duration.

Now she is once again rebounding.. and after much diet experimentation I can see daily variation in her behavior based on how much of my special blend of mix she has consumed in the three days prior.

I don't know if I would subject her to surgery - something your squirrel might in fact need.
I don't know if you could find a squirrel friendly and safe vet.
Nor do I know how the visit by a prey-species vegetarian, to a predator filled waiting room/facility might cause painful anxiety in your squirrel.
One of the first things I did upon becoming a rehabber was to build a euthanization chamber.

Over the past two years I have shared a great deal of quality time with MySquirrel and daily she shows me that she values that time.
Last year, I designed a ramp systems to allow her to navigate all about her room, without having to climb or jump, and lately she has been in what I call Sick Bay, a single level 4 foot high walled plastic box that I custom built to allow for all of her needs. I will not have any regrets when she leaves me, and I will help her leave if and when her daily life is seems to be more discomfort than pleasure...

But currently she is gaining weight, eating better and at this rate, may be out of sick bay in a few weeks.
The HHBs she eats, does not show as overcoming MBD.

Your squirrel's intake of calcium is directly related to your squirrel's consumption of calcium rich foods.
That is directly related to how often she comes across those foods.
IF she is shredding the HHBs, maybe try a different HHB flavor.
Try moistening them by steaming them, or dropping them into water for a moment.
STS's idea of a molasses drop by might work.

IF the teeth are not the problem and you want a recipe for calcium delivery, let me know.. eventually I will add it to my thread but want to have as much empirical evidence behind it as possible... I am constantly tweaking it, very slightly and with the dearth of interest, figure it is not a rush.

[Salty]

Hello BigNibbler!

1. and 3. He does but not a lot. He will stay in his outside cage for 10 minutes maximum, couple times a day. Usually, it is less than 10 minutes, but with the warmer weather coming, it hopefully will be more time. I could lock him there, but i wish he would go in it by his own will.
2. Not sure about calcium. We force feed with syringe. What is the reason to go to calcium citrate?
4. If you mean what he eats most, it would be citruses( oranges, mandarins, grapefruit), persimmon, mango and lately papaya. On different days he will prefer one thing over another. He only has his lower teeth, although he manages to shred those blocks. But he cannot eat leaves, which he did before, and the way i know is this: He used to raid our paper towel supply, he would rip one off the roll and then would stuff his mouth with it, and took it to one of his squirrel caves, and shred it there for bed. Now, i watched him try to tear one sheet off the roll, and he almost immediately gives up on it, even though he wants to do it.
5. Not yet.
6. Yes he completed a course of Amoxicillin-Clav this February.
7. He is over 6 y.o. We have a dog, and used to have a cat. They would do something that can be called 'playing', but it is very rare this happens.
8. At least half of the day he will sit on somebody, we will play with him too, but taking it with playing easy for now.

It would be great to know your blocks recipe, in case we need to substitute syringe feeding with something that does not require two people to administer, which might happen in the near future. Little worried about leaving him with no calcium, even for a short period of time.