Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

[Diggie's Friend]

Digestion in humans is slower than that of rats and other small rodents. Lab Research has determined that rats absorb nutrients and anti-nutrients like the insoluble form of (Calcium oxalate), into their bloodstream, better than humans.

In support of older squirrels, and all those the age of weaning, that no longer have incisors; combining ground rodent block and nutrient powders with liquid food grade sources added (cold pressed (organic) virgin coconut oil, food grade nutraceutical oils, and purified water) to support a gruel consistency. Mixtures that have a thicker, and/or sticky gooey consistency, have a tendency to stick to the flap on the back of the throat of rodents, where they can continue to build up and lead to gagging while eating. If a mixture is thick, thin it out before feeding; and should it dry out to where it thickens up; then add some drops of water to thin it out. As the saying goes; "Better to be safe than sorry.".

Take care, DF

[BigNibbler]

Hi BN:
... ( PARAPHRASED I have seen NO evidence in regard to Squirrels per se ,,,I really don't believe that there is much going on in the way of determining either Ca;Mg ratios, nor in the efficacy of serving them together, as opposed to discreetly as in separate feedings

... and you could not simple directly measure out corresponding amounts of the Calcium and Magnesium Sources; you would need to first figure out the percentages of Elemental Calcium and Elemental Magnesium present in the particular Ca and Mg salts that you chose!

...the recommendation from NROLA: Ca:Phos Ration of ~1.7:1 and a Ca:Mg Ratio of 10:1 (quite a difference form the commonly cited 2:1 Ratio)!

there is a true paucity of any definitive or convincing evidence available in support of utilizing some variation of the concept of a Ca:Mg Ratio and for that reason, BN, I just don't worry about it BUT I would love to other who may have evidence supporting this concept or particular reasoning that might lead to my reappraising what I just wrote!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

YES - I paraphrased all that you wrote, and THAT is why I am asking ... and will be adding to...

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

YES - I paraphrased all that you wrote, and THAT is why I am asking ... and will be adding to...

????!
StS

[BigNibbler]

????!
StS

Well it sounded like you basically agreed I need to do more research. That there were more unanswered considerations. And that is why I asked and was hoping for answers.

Believe that my condensed version, covered all key points....Please forgive me, if I omitted something. MySquirrel may have distracted me.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Well it sounded like you basically agreed I need to do more research. That there were more unanswered considerations. And that is why I asked and was hoping for answers.

Believe that my condensed version, covered all key points....Please forgive me, if I omitted something. MySquirrel may have distracted me.

Hi BN:
No problem really, I just didn't understand what you meant. I started using the Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals (NROLA),: Fourth Revised Edition, 1995 utilizing the Rat Chapter when I first began making Blocks from scratch! I still use it as a guide even though I now make Blocks usually using Teklad 2018 and I have availed myself of this reference ever since! It is quite thorough, relatively easy to use, and is evidence based. I wish that a new edition would appear but probably that is going to be it. Maybe there is something similar that I have somehow overlooked in my searches.

Another source that I have used, BN, is to "reverse engineer" using the very detailed Data Sheets that are available for all of the Teklad Blocks. I absolutely hate the parent company, Inotive and their subsidiaries Envigo and Teklad (At one time Harlan-Teklad) because of Envigo's animal cruelty case involving many horribly mistreated beagles being removed by authorities and a fine and restrictions ordered as well and for the fact that these companies raise laboratory animals. Somehow I am able to indulge in some mental gymnastics and separate the food the company makes from their less wholesome activities with raising and selling laboratory animals!

There are lots of questions and far les answers in the world of Nutrition and unfortunately, the lack of data doesn't prevent someone from writing what are really their opinions as if it was based upon irrefutable evidence or even some quality evidence! Oh well!

If you find some answer, BN, please bring them back to TSB! Certainly all of your question and ours as well, are worthy of answers!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Diggie's Friend]

Though not a given, considering your squirrel's age, his kidneys may not be able to handle as much magnesium as could if he were younger.
You may want to try reducing the amount of the Magnesium L. threonate capsule by "Double Wood" by half, to give a quarter of the total with each meal, instead of adding half the capsule contents with each meal.

[BigNibbler]

Though not a given, considering your squirrel's age, his kidneys may not be able to handle as much magnesium as could if he were younger.
You may want to try reducing the amount of the Magnesium L. threonate capsule by "Double Wood" by half, to give a quarter of the total with each meal, instead of adding half the capsule contents with each meal.

Thank you, but as I said not only is the amount of elemental Magnesium so insignificant in that mix - but MySquirrel did not like it!

[BigNibbler]

Just an update: MySquirrel is continuing to get older, so I guess that is as good as I can hope for. But her weight gain is sporadic. She gained a nice amount but then gets finicky and loses weight.
With more weight she seems more perky and more athletic and toned and active. But then she gets finicky and regresses.

Still varying her mixes and trying to get her to consume more calcium but its a lot more of a challenge than most posts I have read here seem to suggest.

Her low weight was about 470 and her high was about 585 . Now she is 535.

[Charley Chuckles]

Gary her weight sounds good, I know my Conker was a big boy and I never liked when he lost with even though by a chart that looked good but by my eyes I didn't like it as he wasn't the same boy.
I use to sprinkle a little calcium carbonate I'd get from Healthy Henry's Pets. Not a lot and not all the time. It's a balancing act.
Wishing your baby health and many more years with you, your a good papa 🤗

[BigNibbler]

Thanks Charley, but a dusting, isn't really going to do much... unless it is very heavy and caked on, as is possible with deeply soaked, moistened HHB and that makes the eating of it less pleasant and leads to more "peeling" of the HHB and more waste. Dusting is good for possible routine preventive maintenance, but I imagine can also become a breathing irritant. For SERIOUS MBD REVERSAL - basically a net positive of 100-200mg of elemental calcium is needed.
That requires a half gram PER MEAL of Calcium Citrate. Considering a whole meal is at most about 10 grams ( based on serving three HHB at 5grams each, and shredding of 30%) . So one needs to find a delivery food that is LOVED, CONSISTENTLY, not only occasionally and where the portion eaten can be embellished with at least half a gram of powder, without discouraging consumption any.

I have found that the food most consistently enjoyed and actually eaten is coarsely ground filberts - which is a high phosphorous food, requiring MORE CALCIUM to offset that larger amount of phosphorus.
Yet for MySquirel that is what works best.

So far my most eaten recipe is simply 500 grams of filberts ground for 45 seconds in a salad chopper - with 70 grams of Calcium Citrate. I then use a dough mixer to mix it for five minutes more ( not grinding so as to keep the coarse texture ), and ADD 180 grams of water with a 5% good grade protein based gelatin and one half gram of Calcium Propionate premixed into that water.

I have experimented with variations that include 2-4 grams of Pine Bark, 2-15 grams Magnesium Citrate or Magnesium L-Threonate, Some Pre/Pro Biotics, Varying amounts of Gelatin and sometimes not using any preservative.
I had also tried using up to 20% of Almonds, instead of filberts, and INSTEAD of magnesium.


HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE: None of the variations is consumed consistently and with the enjoyment or in the amounts that the first recipe above ( actually my last recipe, but with repeated attempts at the others and more! )

In weeks where MySquirrel is eating the filbert mix, she gains weight, is MORE ACTIVE, more curious, more into running and awake much more.
Those days I also give her TWO almonds a day and three HHB, and she always has lettuce and 2018 rodent nuggets.

Whenever I try to get her to eat what is supposed to be "better" IE: more magnesium, or pine bark etc, she will eat with substantial enthusiasm the FIRST MEAL. Period. Then for the next 3 to five days, she will reject completely any of that mix, as if she has gotten a tummy ache or has learned that the mix is bad. Generally it takes a week to get her to trust the mix again, and during the week she is self fasting, she both loses weight, poise, and interest.

So it seems that the less healthy food, but the simplest is also the mix that works best.

IF you have CONSTRUCTIVE PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE in a particular food stuff, that I could use INSTEAD of the filberts, so high in phosphorus... .I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THAT?

I had also tried a variety of greens, squash, HHB, Korean Yam, Mushrooms, and more as a food base to deliver the Calcium, and NONE were met with any interest!
Surprisingly, Almonds, which she loves, once ground and mixed with the powder and gelatin were not of much interest to her.

As a second best approach, I did try grinding up HHB blocks along with a proportionate amount of Calcium Citrate. What I found is that any block I try to re-make with liquid ( either gel water or coconut oil or a mix ), or that is finely ground she has no interest in. If I only do a course grinding of the HHB blocks with the calcium powder, she will eat it but I am not confident that she is consuming a large enough amount of the calcium. The calcium powder that does not stick to the HHB ground bits, I would think settles down and is lost to her. ALSO her interest it eating that ground HHB mix waned pretty quickly.

FINALLY ONE IMPORTANT POINT: You MUST use a coffee grinder to regrind the Calcium Citrate powder. Any brand I have tried, the powder is of some granularity. Grinding it about 60 seconds in an $18 coffee grinder makes a HUGE difference and results in a silky smooth soft powder, that has to be much more palatable in any recipe. And certainly for any dusting application.

[Charley Chuckles]

Hummm even Dr Emerson told me it's fine to sprinkle the calcium on food. If your concerned about it you could always mush it up in avocado or other veggies fruits she will eat.

[BigNibbler]

Abby -

1] MySquirrel will only eat avocado when for a few weeks when it is in season. The small ones, not the big ones. THEN she will eat it for a few days and tire of it. She does not like it all mushed up, but fresh and crisply cut.

2] AS I HAD SAID ABBY - Dusting presents insufficient calcium powder to be at all effective in REVERSING MBD !

3] I am not going to debate whether dusting with my finely ground calcium might be a breathing irritant. Sprinkle some down on a relatively dry non moistened foodstuff, and take a deep breath through your nose.
Then you can let me know if it is perfectly pleasurable? I treat MySquirrel, the way I would want to be treated.

[Charley Chuckles]

Understood.
Only Way I believe you could give extra calcium if that's what your asking would be to add it to water bowl I've know of others to do that.

[BigNibbler]

Calcium does NOT dissolve in water. IT can mix and remain suspended in water FOR A SHORT WHILE, but most will immediately sink.
The result is she will reject the water because it is different and cloudy looking, but won't have any appreciable amount of calcium at the top, where she skims the water.

IT is generally considered dangerous to add anything to water when dealing with such a finicky patient. She will stop drinking. And that is exactly what she does!

She has five cups of water in her room. Originally she only had one. When she got sick over a year ago, I added more water to make it easier so she always had water near her.
I could not get her to drink any water from those new cups! it took about three months. Now she does drink from all of them.

Years ago, I designed a hidden magnetic stirrer on a timer, that activated every twenty minutes. I had an injured squirrel on medicines and I used frequently stirring ( automatically every twenty minutes for ten seconds ) as a way of keeping all the meds suspended. This required measuring how much water he would drink at each visit, and then dosing the water so he would have the correct amounts.

The idea was that the stirrer was quiet housed below in wood... and he quickly got used to the stirring sound. And most likely drinking would not coincide with a stirring moment.

It worked quite well and he had a full recovery.

I had thought of it with MySquirrel, but since she drinks now from multiple sources, including from two bottles downstairs, it is not applicable.

BTW - squirrels definitely smell water and if it smells different ...

[Charley Chuckles]

magnetic stirrer , cool idea 👍