Question about probiotics

[AnnRie]

Someone posted a link to order Baytril to have on hand for AP and when going to checkout it asked if I wanted to add Probiotics Plus to my cart (Allbirdproducts .com). Is this a good probiotic to use? The website says it's good to give probiotics once a week regularly. Do you guys agree? To give you guys some more background info, I'm currently in the process of switching her formula from Esbilac to goats milk with yogurt, but it's going to be a slow process because she doesn't like it. I also have heavy whipping cream on hand, but I read to hold off until she is stable on the goats milk formula. I've had her 6 days. Before I found this forum I had switched her from esbilac to FV 32/40. It made her bloated and her intake decreased, so after researching more I decided not to stay on the FV 32/40. She's back on the esbilac, but the only reason I am switching her again is because she has diarrhea. I estimate she is in week 2 age wise and yesterday she weighed 26 grams. And one more question, am I making the right choice switching her formula again due to the diarrhea?

[Spanky]

Someone posted a link to order Baytril to have on hand for AP and when going to checkout it asked if I wanted to add Probiotics Plus to my cart (Allbirdproducts .com). Is this a good probiotic to use? The website says it's good to give probiotics once a week regularly. Do you guys agree? To give you guys some more background info, I'm currently in the process of switching her formula from Esbilac to goats milk with yogurt, but it's going to be a slow process because she doesn't like it. I also have heavy whipping cream on hand, but I read to hold off until she is stable on the goats milk formula. I've had her 6 days. Before I found this forum I had switched her from esbilac to FV 32/40. It made her bloated and her intake decreased, so after researching more I decided not to stay on the FV 32/40. She's back on the esbilac, but the only reason I am switching her again is because she has diarrhea. I estimate she is in week 2 age wise and yesterday she weighed 26 grams. And one more question, am I making the right choice switching her formula again due to the diarrhea?

I am not familiar with that particular probiotic but I tend to use the store brand / least expensive FWIW.

As for the diarrhea and formula:

1) Is the Esbilac the powdered version? If no, the off-the-shelf liquid version does and will cause diarrhea and is not good for squirrels (surprisingly it is not the same as the powdered version). If yes, are you mixing up a batch, enough to last about 2 days worth of feedings, several hours (~6) ahead of the first time you use it.. this allows it to more fully dissolve in the water.

2) Any formula that is warmed for feeding should be discarded and not re-used... that can cause diarrhea. Do not use a microwave to warm the formula; most of us warm the formula by placing a full syringe full into a hot cup of water and allowing it to warm about 2 minutes.

3) How much and how often are you feeding her? Is the diarrhea a whitish color... that usually indicates overfeeding.

Switching formulas.. the Esbilac is fine for use in a 2 week old... I would order Fox Valley 20/50 for when she is about 3.5 weeks old. Even if you switch to the goat's milk, which is a temporary formula, switching to FV 20/50 at 3.5 weeks is advisable. The Fox Valley 32/40 can be problematic as you described.

[Diggie's Friend]

"Pet Flora" is a supplemental source of, "soil based organisms" (probiotics, with prebiotics that sustain the probiotic in the gut).

Having spoken directly with this company, this formula only differs from the dog/cat formula in the mg. amount in the capsule. Their labeled, "Cat" formula is what works best to reduce the contents of a capsule to the target daily dosage. This source has no flavors or other additives, which makes it a good option to use for tree squirrels.

A daily maintenance of (1/64 Tsp.) was used for many years for a southern smaller bodied E. Gray squirrel for maintenance. Double the amount is indicated for mid-sized N.A. Tree species/subspecies.

With over 70 percent of the whole body's immune system comprised of the intestinal gut flora colony (microbiota) in the gut, when using AB, the amount given daily should significantly be increased to support a viable colony of gut flora microbiota. This is also key in supporting digestion and so nutrient availability.

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mea...%2C123&sr=1-20

[AnnRie]

Yes it is the premix liquid Esbilac as that was the only option the evening I had to bring her in. I didn't order the powder at that time as I had already ordered the FV 32/40 which I had planned to use for 2 to 3 weeks until graduating to the FV 20/50. The powdered form Esbilac with probiotics will be arriving by post tomorrow. Thank you so much for your help. It has been a blessing to find you all here. Information on the internet about baby squirrels is contradicting. If I can ask just one more question. I wrote this recipe down and I can't remember which site I got it from. It is 2 parts water, 1 part Esbilac, ½ part whipping cream, and optional ¼ teaspoon yogurt. Is that suggested how I should mix the powdered Esbilac or is it better to just use the powder and water?

[AnnRie]

I am not familiar with that particular probiotic but I tend to use the store brand / least expensive FWIW.

As for the diarrhea and formula:

1) Is the Esbilac the powdered version? If no, the off-the-shelf liquid version does and will cause diarrhea and is not good for squirrels (surprisingly it is not the same as the powdered version). If yes, are you mixing up a batch, enough to last about 2 days worth of feedings, several hours (~6) ahead of the first time you use it.. this allows it to more fully dissolve in the water.

2) Any formula that is warmed for feeding should be discarded and not re-used... that can cause diarrhea. Do not use a microwave to warm the formula; most of us warm the formula by placing a full syringe full into a hot cup of water and allowing it to warm about 2 minutes.

3) How much and how often are you feeding her? Is the diarrhea a whitish color... that usually indicates overfeeding.

Switching formulas.. the Esbilac is fine for use in a 2 week old... I would order Fox Valley 20/50 for when she is about 3.5 weeks old. Even if you switch to the goat's milk, which is a temporary formula, switching to FV 20/50 at 3.5 weeks is advisable. The Fox Valley 32/40 can be problematic as you described.

Her intake was consistent and climbing before I switched her to the FV 32/40. Since switching her back to the Esbilac her intake is up and down. I'm following the guideline of feed every 2 to 3 hours, 5 to 7% of her body weight. If she doesn't eat as much for one feeding then I will feed her sooner the next. Her stool is brown runny with yellow seedy. The powdered Esbilac will/should be delivered tomorrow. I am going to order the Baytril to have on hand just in case. Luckily we had 1cc syringes the day I started hydrating and feeding her. I tried warming the syringes in hot water, but it looked as if the formula was leaking out and water getting in. Maybe I should try a taller glass and flipping the syringe upside down.Thank you for your help. I am trying to read as much of the information on this forum as possible, but I am sleep deprived at this point. You guys are warriors doing this regularly to save the squirrels.

[AnnRie]

"Pet Flora" is a supplemental source of, "soil based organisms" (probiotics, with prebiotics that sustain the probiotic in the gut).

Having spoken directly with this company, this formula only differs from the dog/cat formula in the mg. amount in the capsule. Their labeled, "Cat" formula is what works best to reduce the contents of a capsule to the target daily dosage. This source has no flavors or other additives, which makes it a good option to use for tree squirrels.

A daily maintenance of (1/64 Tsp.) was used for many years for a southern smaller bodied E. Gray squirrel for maintenance. Double the amount is indicated for mid-sized N.A. Tree species/subspecies.

With over 70 percent of the whole body's immune system comprised of the intestinal gut flora colony (microbiota) in the gut, when using AB, the amount given daily should significantly be increased to support a viable colony of gut flora microbiota. This is also key in supporting digestion and so nutrient availability.

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Mea...%2C123&sr=1-20

Thank you for the link. I was about to ask how I was suppose to measure out 1/64. Should I be giving less as she was 29 grams today before feeding? I couldn't agree more about gut microbe. I have many autoimmune ailments that I now believe started due to my gut microbe. I cringed when having to rehydrate this baby squirrel with sugar water as I know too well what sugar does to the microbe, but I know it had to be done to potentially save her life. I have already been looking at different rodent blocks for when it's time and I was shocked that a lot of them have added sugar. I did end up finding one with molasses, and that will probably be the one I go with if she will eat it. Thanks so much for your help.

[Diggie's Friend]

You are kindly welcome.

Which block is the one with molasses you have found?

Sugar like salt in the diet needs to be limited; the more of either, the more calcium is lost from the diet into the urine, which in turn lends to the long-term development of calcium kidney stones in rodents.

Molasses is a highly acidic and inflammatory sugar source.

Molasses is the dark, thick syrup byproduct of creating crystallized sugar from sugar cane or sugar beets. (1) To make sugar, sugar cane or sugar beets are crushed to extract their juice, which is then boiled down to form sugar crystals, leaving a dark brown syrup behind, also known as molasses.

[Diggie's Friend]

Best not to go by which block diet your squirrel will eat; rather go by which diets are balanced in nutrients, for few on the market actually are.

Squirrels do have a bit of a sweet tooth, yet their, 'nut tooth' is a stronger draw. Chia oil lends a nutty aroma and taste to rodent block it is added to. Some members have found that by adding a drop or two of, "Foods Alive" organic food grade Chia oil, that it increased their squirrel's interest in the rodent block diet after either first refusing to accept it, or after having stopped eating it.

https://foodsalive.com/products/orga...il-foods-alive

No substitutes for human food grade organic chia oil; as carrier oil source of chia oil aren't fit or meant for consumption.

[AnnRie]

Best not to go by which block diet your squirrel will eat; rather go by which diets are balanced in nutrients, for few on the market actually are.

Squirrels do have a bit of a sweet tooth, yet their, 'nut tooth' is a stronger draw. Chia oil lends a nutty aroma and taste to rodent block it is added to. Some members have found that by adding a drop or two of, "Foods Alive" organic food grade Chia oil, that it increased their squirrel's interest in the rodent block diet after either first refusing to accept it, or after having stopped eating it.

https://foodsalive.com/products/orga...il-foods-alive

No substitutes for human food grade organic chia oil; as carrier oil source of chia oil aren't fit or meant for consumption.

Thank you for the information. I did a bit more research on rodent blocks and found out that one of the blocks that was listed as having sugar was miss labeled. It was the Henry healthy blocks. I noticed Kaytee rodent blocks have both molasses and sugar. Based on my research I would be choosing between one of the Henry's blocks or Teklad blocks. Which blocks do you recommend? If it's one of the Henry's blocks, which one because there seems to be quite a few?

[Diggie's Friend]

Originally Posted by AnnRie

Thank you for the information. I did a bit more research on rodent blocks and found out that one of the blocks that was listed as having sugar was miss labeled. It was the Henry healthy blocks. I noticed Kaytee rodent blocks have both molasses and sugar. Based on my research I would be choosing between one of the Henry's blocks or Teklad blocks. Which blocks do you recommend? If it's one of the Henry's blocks, which one because there seems to be quite a few?

Teklad Envigo Global Rat Diets are the most common rodent block sources recommended by the rehabbers that they use to support the well development weaned young. HHB block diet is a supplement source that is commonly included in addition to Envigo Teklad Rat diet, because the weaned young require higher levels of nutrients than diets for non-breeding adults. As to which Teklad to use, I will let the rehabbers chime in on which ones they would specifically recommend for weaned young, and at which age they begin to offer the block to yet fully weaned young.

[Spanky]

Thank you for the information. I did a bit more research on rodent blocks and found out that one of the blocks that was listed as having sugar was miss labeled. It was the Henry healthy blocks. I noticed Kaytee rodent blocks have both molasses and sugar. Based on my research I would be choosing between one of the Henry's blocks or Teklad blocks. Which blocks do you recommend? If it's one of the Henry's blocks, which one because there seems to be quite a few?

The Kaytee is a "marginal" block, meaning it is at the very bottom of "acceptable" block for squirrel nutrition. I also do not believe many squirrels are very fond of the Kaytee (but they will eat it if the choice is eating nothing at all).

The big difference between choosing a supplement block (Henry's) and a staple block (like Teklad) is how much you feed. As a supplement block, the squirrels should eat 2 - 3 blocks daily and then gets lots of healthy veggies and some fruit as the bulk of their diet. With Teklad it is the opposite... the squirrel must eat the Teklad as the bulk of their diet (~80 - 100% of what they eat) and you can opt to add healthy veggies (~15%) and fruit treats (5~%) are supplements to the Teklads "supplements). For obvious reasons, large rehab places go with the Teklad both for the economics and the simplicity.

Personally, I use the Henry's and healthy veggies route. All the Henry's blocks are the same when it comes to nutrition, with the exception being the Hi Protein suggested for youngsters and flyers. However, I only use a combination of the Picky and the Wild Bites. For extra protein flyers get "Pure Bites" which are freeze dried chicken treats for dogs & cats (greys will eat this too at times).

I also hand out the blocks before placing the veggies into the cages... In my experience anything that is handed out individually is received well and they will eat it.. especially true of the rehab squirrels with more than 1 squirrel per cage... they always want whatever their sibling / cage mates want / have. The blocks are handed out and they eat those while I prep the "buffet" of veggies. My learning experience was that if the blocks are just tossed into the bowl with the rest of the food, sometimes they are skipped over in favor of the fresh veggies... but if offered first and separately, they will always get eaten in my experience. I will also taken in squirrels from weeks old to years old that I was told would absolutely refuse to eat the blocks... but never once has that held true in my experience. There are a lot of posts with folks that are challenged with getting their squirrels to eat the block, which is something that I have never had issues. Now, I do have some NR's... some will not eat the Wild Bites, but love the Picky. Some are the opposite... and some of them flip-flop from time to time (but those are spoiled rotten brats and not youngsters getting ready to release).

I introduce block (Henry's) shortly after their eyes open. It takes a week or more before they progress from chewing adn shredding to actually eating and they get no solids (veggies) until they are eating the block well.

If you go Teklad I would use the 2018 or 2016... there are suggestions that increasing the protein (the "16" and "18" in the "20xx") may be advisable in "senior" squirrels (so 2019).

[Diggie's Friend]

Personally, I use the Henry's and healthy veggies route. All the Henry's blocks are the same when it comes to nutrition, with the exception being the Hi Protein suggested for youngsters and flyers. However, I only use a combination of the Picky and the Wild Bites. For extra protein flyers get "Pure Bites" which are freeze dried chicken treats for dogs & cats (greys will eat this too at times).

I also hand out the blocks before placing the veggies into the cages... In my experience anything that is handed out individually is received well and they will eat it.. especially true of the rehab squirrels with more than 1 squirrel per cage... they always want whatever their sibling / cage mates want / have. The blocks are handed out and they eat those while I prep the "buffet" of veggies. My learning experience was that if the blocks are just tossed into the bowl with the rest of the food, sometimes they are skipped over in favor of the fresh veggies... but if offered first and separately, they will always get eaten in my experience.

I would go with these option as well.

[AnnRie]

The Kaytee is a "marginal" block, meaning it is at the very bottom of "acceptable" block for squirrel nutrition. I also do not believe many squirrels are very fond of the Kaytee (but they will eat it if the choice is eating nothing at all).

The big difference between choosing a supplement block (Henry's) and a staple block (like Teklad) is how much you feed. As a supplement block, the squirrels should eat 2 - 3 blocks daily and then gets lots of healthy veggies and some fruit as the bulk of their diet. With Teklad it is the opposite... the squirrel must eat the Teklad as the bulk of their diet (~80 - 100% of what they eat) and you can opt to add healthy veggies (~15%) and fruit treats (5~%) are supplements to the Teklads "supplements). For obvious reasons, large rehab places go with the Teklad both for the economics and the simplicity.

Personally, I use the Henry's and healthy veggies route. All the Henry's blocks are the same when it comes to nutrition, with the exception being the Hi Protein suggested for youngsters and flyers. However, I only use a combination of the Picky and the Wild Bites. For extra protein flyers get "Pure Bites" which are freeze dried chicken treats for dogs & cats (greys will eat this too at times).

I also hand out the blocks before placing the veggies into the cages... In my experience anything that is handed out individually is received well and they will eat it.. especially true of the rehab squirrels with more than 1 squirrel per cage... they always want whatever their sibling / cage mates want / have. The blocks are handed out and they eat those while I prep the "buffet" of veggies. My learning experience was that if the blocks are just tossed into the bowl with the rest of the food, sometimes they are skipped over in favor of the fresh veggies... but if offered first and separately, they will always get eaten in my experience. I will also taken in squirrels from weeks old to years old that I was told would absolutely refuse to eat the blocks... but never once has that held true in my experience. There are a lot of posts with folks that are challenged with getting their squirrels to eat the block, which is something that I have never had issues. Now, I do have some NR's... some will not eat the Wild Bites, but love the Picky. Some are the opposite... and some of them flip-flop from time to time (but those are spoiled rotten brats and not youngsters getting ready to release).

I introduce block (Henry's) shortly after their eyes open. It takes a week or more before they progress from chewing adn shredding to actually eating and they get no solids (veggies) until they are eating the block well.

If you go Teklad I would use the 2018 or 2016... there are suggestions that increasing the protein (the "16" and "18" in the "20xx") may be advisable in "senior" squirrels (so 2019).

Thank you for taking the time to explain it in depth.

[Diggie's Friend]

For young still nursing (not yet weaned), probiotic that includes lactobacillus with prebiotic, is appropriate. This is best to use when diarrhea is present.

Once weaned, along with rodent block diet, soil Based probiotics are appropriate for reason that juvenile and adult tree squirrels consume soil based probiotics wild (geophagy).