Adult squirrel in crisis!!

[atlantasquirrelgirl]

Do you want to try to find an exotic vet to take her to, or refer your vet to talk to?

[pelohojo]

Hi AtlantaSquirrelGirl, I did take Leeloo to Dr. Mimi Shepherd, the local exotics expert - she's the one who took her xray and gave her the steroids & antibiotics. Do you have a different exotic vet who may know more about squirrels?
Thanks, Colleen

[atlantasquirrelgirl]

Here is another list of exotic vets, and you can search Georgia specifically.

http://aemv.org/vetlist.cfm

PM me and tell me the part of GA you are in and I'll make some calls. It may be tonight before I can reach anybody.

[pelohojo]

Thanks, Gammas Baby for posting the diet information. We feed them Kaytee Forti-Diet (for mouse, rat & hamster) as per our original vet. Do you think one of the other rodent blocks you listed would be better?

Also, thank you for the pm info - my husband is more savvy than me & actually showed me how last night.

Thanks for the link, Atlantasquirrelgirl.

I have put a large full spectrum light over Leeloo now, covering her eyes. Will she absorb through all her thick fur? She has a much lusher, thicker coat than grey squirrels.

Mars is helping me with a homeopathic remedy of calcarea carbonica, thank you Mars!

Scared to hope, but still hoping big time anyway....thanks so much, you guys have really been there for us. We love our "furbabies" as much as our human family members (and in some cases, more, haha) and really appreciate all your advice and compassion.

[Lady Squirrelly]

I have been following this thread.

Sending love and prayers for your precious furbaby.

[thundersquirrel]

so sorry things are so confusing and scary. we will keep our thoughts and prayers with you and leeloo.

a motto i think you should follow right now is do no harm. since we aren't sure what's causing these problems, it may be best to only do what you know won't hurt her. we know that warmth, fluids, rest, and homeopathic remedies are generally harmless. as far as antibiotics and other things go....i'm not sure if you should continue until you know more about her condition.

if it is cancer, there's not much you can do unless you can feel a tumor on a part of her body that isn't vital to her survival (i had a rat with cancer, once, and her tumor was on her lower stomach- we were able to surgically remove it).

perhaps it's time to rely on her natural immunity. if she has made it to adulthood, she has faced a lot of tough bacteria in her time, and was evolutionarily capable of fighting it. hopefully she can do the same with whatever is affecting her.

[atlantasquirrelgirl]

I've passed along another contact via PM, which has a squirrel vet in the area. Please keep us updated.

[pelohojo]

Thank you for the contact, Atlantasquirrelgirl.

Thank you Lady Squirrelly for your positivity and prayers.

I know, I agree thundersquirrel, but that is so hard! Some advise keeping up the antibiotics & steroid as prescribed, others are worried it may do her harm. She is drinking some pedialyte on her own now so hopefully keeping hydrated. The vets - all 3 - are against me giving her calcium, but I did it all last night and am giving her the calcarea carbonica homeopathic remedy, trusting you guys here.

I am borrowing the full spectrum light from my bird for Leeloo right now, and will get 2 more ASAP so everyone has one. I'm assuming cats don't need it? but at this point I feel I should ask, cuz I should have known about the squirrels needing it. Can she absorb through her fur or does it absorb through her eyes? Is there any particular full spectrum lighting system you all recommend? (bulb brand, size, strength, distance from baby, etc.)

Thank you Gammas Baby - you list rodent blocks as composing 50% of squirrel diet, but you don't feed Baby them? (is your icon a picture of Baby? So adorable....) Lots of cute squirrel pics you guys have...

Many, many thanks -

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

I am pm'ing you a vet you may want to contact in Fla, maybe if you could even talk to him over the phone...he was a vet of a TSB member he is very knowledgable in squirrels and who knows its a long shot ...may be able to give you some info. I am keeping your red boy in my prayers!

[Buddy'sMom]

"KayTee Forti-Diet" is one of the brands of "rodent block" that has been recommended by our rehabbers. (Not all squirrels will actually eat the stuff but it's recommended, anyway)

About the fur and the full spectrum light -- that question has been raised by others as well and is a good question -- one that we don't have a very good answer to. EXCEPT that squirrels in the wild manage to get the UV light they need, even through their fur. So we have to assume that they will get it even if it comes from a light bulb. There has been some discussion that they might actually convert it through their eyes, rather than their skin as humans would.

You are doing great!! Many crossed fingers and healing thoughts for Leeloo.

[My Little Trouble]

Adding my very best wishes for Leeloo and her loving family,
keeping all of you in my heart.

[Pam]

pelohojo!

I'm thinking of you and praying for Leeloo.

[pelohojo]

Wow, I am so bummed I didn't know about you guys a long time ago! Sometimes the no-brainer "duh" things in life end up getting missed. I should have searched for a squirrel-lover group years ago. So glad I found you now!

Thank you for the contact, rippie-n-lilgirlsmom.

And thank you Pam and My Little Trouble for your loving energy and prayers.

Thank you, Buddy's Mom - I have one of those long tube fluorescent type full spectrum lights right on top of Leeloo's box right now. I think I will get one of those tall lamps with a downward facing bulb that can be higher/farther away from her. She has her eyes covered (they love to sleep snuggled up to each other, under their mini-blankets) so I am concerned that the light is not doing good this way. And yes, finicky babies seem to be all I have *smile* Thank you for your kind wishes for us..

Gamma's Baby, okay, that makes sense, thank you for clarifying! It is funny how like little children they are, fussy eaters especially when we are trying to feed them what is good for them. Oh my gosh, Baby is adorable! How in the world did you ever "Baby-proof" your house?

I just found Leeloo biting on the towel in her cage, for the 2nd time. Like she wants to chew. She is probably starving! We just put some of the vanilla ensure in her lick-bottle and she drank pretty enthusiastically. I am having a very hard time force feeding her the Critical Care, she won't swallow it. Is it safe to feed her the ensure for awhile to get her some nutrients in her?

Also, a dear friend of mine just helped me remember - we had used cedar shavings at the bottom of their enclosure all their lives. Until a couple of months ago, when we changed to aspen shavings because I read that cedar can be harmful. She has recommended Carefree Pet Bedding which is paper based, and I feel we need to do this. Have any of you heard of bad reactions to the aspen shavings? And although the cedar is supposed to be bad, they seemed fine with us using it for the 8+ years until our switch. Boy that would be ironic.

She also mentioned Baylisascaris, which she tells me has symptoms like what Leeloo has. So I'm going to try and get a fecal sample to our vet, though they dry out real quickly, I wonder if they have to be fresh?

I was able to take the day off from work today, but won't be able to tomorrow...

[4skwerlz]

Hi Pelo,

I was one of folks trying help last night....

I am thrilled that Leeloo is still hanging in there. To answer your questions, animals with fur or feathers make the Vit D in their fur/feathers in response to sunlight. Then when they groom or preen, they actually ingest the Vit D.

As far as the KayTee diet, it seems to be okay, but what else was Leeloo eating? Even though that food seems to be balanced, if a squirrel eats a lot of other unbalanced foods, they could still get MBD. Another big factor with Leeloo would also be the lack of natural sunlight/FSL. BTW, sunlight is MUCH more powerful than any FSL, so if you could take her outside, in the shade, and sit with her in your lap for as long as possible, she will get a much bigger dose of UVB rays. On the other hand, it sounds like she may be too weak to groom herself right now.

I know we don't really know what's wrong with Leeloo, but in case it IS MBD, it is curable in all but the final stages, and most importantly, the "cure" won't hurt her. I heard what the vet said, but well, we just find that even the best vets know so little about the common health problems of pet squirrels, like MBD....

Below is a bit more info on the calcium issue in squirrels, and also some more info on diet:

The Calcium:Phosphorus Ratio

Calcium and phosphorus “compete” for absorption in the body. For every gram of phosphorus ingested in the diet, the body must match that with another gram of calcium before the phosphorus can be absorbed through the intestinal wall into the bloodstream. If the required calcium is not available from the diet, the body will obtain it from wherever it can---such as from the storage depots in the bones.

This is where the whole idea of calcium-phosphorus ratios comes in. The purpose of calculating such a ratio is to make sure that for every gram of phosphorus you're feeding, you're feeding AT LEAST an equal amount of calcium (a 1:1 ratio or better), so that calcium isn't being continually mobilized from bones. Most nutritionists recommend that the ideal levels are somewhere between 1.2-2 parts calcium to 1 part phosphorus.

This is why it does little good to feed “high-calcium” foods unless they are also low phosphorus. For example, almonds contain 251 mg of calcium per 28 grams; however, they contain 460 mg of phosphorus! For every 28 gram serving of almonds, your squirrel would LOSE 209 grams of calcium! The squirrel would have to eat 209 grams of extra calcium somewhere else, just to break even.

Common Mistakes
Here are the most common mistakes, diet-wise, made by people with pet squirrels:

--Lack of Vitamin D. There are only two ways to get Vitamin D: 1) Sunshine (or FSL), and 2) from the foods eaten. Unfortunately, only meats and fish typically contain Vitamin D. This is one reason why we recommend eggs in the diet. One exception is: mushrooms! They are one of the few non-meat foods that are high in Vit D. In the wild, squirrels eat a lot of them. Another (man-made) exception is milk products. In the U.S., nearly all milk is fortified with Vit D, so cheese, yogurt, etc., contain Vit D.
--Too many nuts. Every nut has an inverted calcium/phosphorus ratio. Some are worse than others; acorns are the best, but still have more phos than calc, resulting in calcium loss.
--Feeding sunflower seeds, corn, and pine nuts. Terrible calc/phos ratios; much worse even than nuts (a ratio of 32:1 for pine nuts!)
--Not feeding a balanced rodent chow/monkey chow as at least 50% of the diet.
--Lack of protein and fat. In the wild, squirrels eat bugs, maggots, carrion, and birds eggs. We encourage pet squirrel owners to include eggs (scrambled or hard-boiled) as well as yogurt, cheese, and other high-fat, high-protein foods.

[Pam]

pelohojo, I was looking at the site of the vet clinic that saw Leeloo over Thanksgiving. The vet that saw her was an avian specialist...I'm wondering if the vet that sees praire dogs and sugar gliders in the group might could review the other vet's findings.

[pelohojo]

Hi Pam - yes, the exotic vet specializes in birds above all else, but also exotics. I think both vets don't think Leeloo has a chance, but would probably be willing to share their findings with another vet who has more experience with squirrels - both are very nice.

Hi 4skwerlz, yes, thank you so much for all your help last night with everyone! I was telling my husband earlier how much it meant to me that everyone was so welcoming, open and compassionate, and willing to help, having never known me before yesterday. What a wonderful group of caring people I am so lucky to have found you.

Mars - I don't know if it was the calcarea or the ensure, but I do see some improvement! It is subtle, but I will take anything at this point. She tried to lift her head a little, and there was a little resistance in her hind legs for the first time in days. So in case it was the calcarea, I didn't give her more, like you said. *hopeful smile*

She seems to like the vanilla high calcium ensure, and I know she is so depleted in nutrients, having not eaten pretty much for days. And she was a very healthy eater before she got sick. (Leeloo would always get up early and pick out her favorite parts of her meal, Chipper her brother loves to sleep in. So these few days, he's actually getting to eat parts of his meal he doesn't snag much...)

Is the Ensure okay to feed her instead of the Critical Care since she is eating the Ensure? It says it supplies 50% RDA of calcium and vitamin D, but also says it has 500 mg potassium (14% RDA), is that the right balance like 4skwerlz described?

I'm totally focused on doing everything I can to pull Leeloo through this right now, but I very much look forward to visiting all around this board after Leeloo is safe & sound again!

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

In my rehabber book Wild Baby Mammels, Ensure is suggested for a sick adult, also the product you have. At this point it's whatever you can get into him. I have an adult I give Esbilac to just to make sure shes getting enough calcium.
You can use any flavor Ensure except chocolate.
You can also slightly warm it.

[4skwerlz]

Is the Ensure okay to feed her instead of the Critical Care since she is eating the Ensure? It says it supplies 50% RDA of calcium and vitamin D, but also says it has 500 mg potassium (14% RDA), is that the right balance like 4skwerlz described?

Don't worry too much about what's in the Ensure nutritionally--she needs calories right now. Can you try a little molasses on her tongue? It has the sugar she needs, PLUS tons of calcium.

Since the vets' diagnoses are still in doubt (brain tumors don't usually improve.....) I think it's wise to continue to treat for MBD, however unlikely, since it won't hurt, unless and until someone comes up with an alternative diagnosis. While continuing to pursue all other diagnostic ideas, of course.

So, as mentioned, molasses is a very concentrated source of calcium, particularly "blackstrap molasses." Also, Leeloo may like some yogurt. If you have some plain calcium pills or powder on hand (not RepCal as it seems to taste bad), you can "spike" whatever she's eating with it.

The vet is correct that a direct injection of calcium into the vein can stop the heart. However, ingesting a lot of calcium for a few days is very unlikely to harm Leeloo.

We are all pulling for LeeLoo!

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Just one more thing it points out that you need to give 2 weeks to see a difference, sometimes you can see a difference sooner. But whatever the outcome he will always need to be treated like he is now with the calcium & light.

[pelohojo]

Thank you for confirming, rippie-n-lilgirlsmom - the bottle says to serve very cold but I had already decided against that! And as long as she gets better, I have all the patience in the world (and at least one credit card I haven't maxed out!)

Hi 4skwerlz - I have come to believe that part of her "not swallowing" is her refusing to swallow! She is doing fine swallowing with the Ensure! She hated the molasses, I had to force it. Hopefully the Ensure is providing the sugar and calcium - it seems like a milkshake. We actually had to pull the bottle away from her this evening because we are worried about her over-doing it!!

Thank you, Gamma's Baby - I am taking what you and others say as compassionate education. I know you all mean well for me and want to do all you can to help Leeloo, so no worries, I am not taking your advice the wrong way. That is horrible about the towel accident. We immediately took out the towel from Leeloo and cut up one of our soft flannel blankets for her. She seemed to really like it too.

Yes, my wonderful friend has advised me about the wood shavings, I'll be using the link she gave me to get a replacement. I guess we thought wood would be good and natural for squirrels...*sigh*

We are continuing the baytril and prednisone, as we are not sure what all may be helping her (small but super meaningful) improvement.

It's going to be an anxiety-filled day having to leave her in the morning and be gone all day at work. She has been sleeping safely each night (contrary to my fears) so hopefully all will be well during the day too, even when I am not looking in on her every 20 minutes.

Have a good night everyone, thank you all again for everything, and I do so look forward to her getting all better and me being able to share some wonderful baby stories with you...