Help: Just started walking in circled and shaking

[ppodcor]

A thought - not Gospel - Seizures take quite a toll on nerves. As I recall from the biology course I never took, neurons travel through nerves through the spinal cord to and from the brain. If the nerves (highway upon which neurons travel) have been disturbed, information to and from the brain is also being disturbed. This may be resulting in garbled messaging and a confused and frightened squirrel. I would think that there is a good chance that the disruption will calm down and normal behavior will return. Or, it could be wilding. Or, it could be that he associates you with the trauma he's experienced and is, for the moment, afraid of you.

I'll issue my mea culpa now. When Sam the Squirrel sees this he will undoubtedly have a good chuckle (spit his coffee through his nose) and then step in to provide a great answer without making me seem like an imbecile. Simon's been on my mind quite a bit. I hope all continues to improve.

By the way, Simon appears to have been startled in the video. I wouldn't call that aggression. He is surely still discombobulated and not thinking straight. He's probably still in some pain - sore muscles from the seizures. In fact, it could actually still hurt just to be touched. If so, he's associating that pain with you. I'd hold off on touching for awhile.

Jamie

Here is the first part of the video that cut off.

https://youtu.be/Trfo6BWk8vg?si=gLEDg3YoFbEiTdiK

Right before this we had been trying to open his cage to get his new water bottle attached. But he was doing that same sound and climbing all over his cage like he wanted to attack me. I grabbed my phone to see of he would do it again. But it was just this small instance.

We have a camera set up in his room and I did see him start wrestling with his little stuffed animal squirrel buddy.

I am mainly concerned about his water consumption. He hasn't actively tried drinking from his water and I am concerned about his hydration if he will not allow us to handle him.

He had 20ccs of formula throughtout the day yesterday, and then just a couple sips of formula and about 2ccs of water this morning which he did allow handling. But this evening he was a completely different squirrel.

[TomahawkFlyers]

You are being so gentle with him. To be honest, I don't see aggression. Wariness ... yes. This seems entirely understandable, given what he's just been through. To be safe, you might want to keep him in his cage for awhile. If you can sit with him on and off so you remain a part of his environment, that might also help make him less edgy. Again, he has been through a LOT. For quite some time, I will not be surprised at anyything he does. He literally is not himself.

If he continues to come up short on water, a quick trip to the vet for a subcutaneous saline injection might give him the kick start he needs. A tiny bit of sugar in very warm water might prove too tempting to pass up.

Jamie

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Here is the first part of the video that cut off.

https://youtu.be/Trfo6BWk8vg?si=gLEDg3YoFbEiTdiK

Right before this we had been trying to open his cage to get his new water bottle attached. But he was doing that same sound and climbing all over his cage like he wanted to attack me. I grabbed my phone to see of he would do it again. But it was just this small instance.

We have a camera set up in his room and I did see him start wrestling with his little stuffed animal squirrel buddy.

I am mainly concerned about his water consumption. He hasn't actively tried drinking from his water and I am concerned about his hydration if he will not allow us to handle him.

He had 20ccs of formula throughtout the day yesterday, and then just a couple sips of formula and about 2ccs of water this morning which he did allow handling. But this evening he was a completely different squirrel.

Hi Ppodcor and Simon:
I'm at work (so what else is new?!?) but will get back with you as soon as I can with some more of my HNVO's (humble non-vet opinion). I have a couple of preliminary questions/comments;

1) what is Simon's weight (the primary reason for my asking is that I estimate an approximate daily fluid intake for a healthy normally hydrated Squirrel to be around 10% of the Squirrel's body weight and with an accurate weight and accurate fluid consumption "numbers;" we can get a ballpark estimate as how close Simon might be to an optimal daily fluid intake). The formula is of course additional fluid intake and it should be "figured in" as well!

2) what is or are Simons water source(s) (a hanging bottle, water dish, both, whatever)?

3) if a hanging water bottle (which I use for most Squirrels in my care but I have at least 2 of the bottles in each cage), it is essential that you check the nozzles at least once per day and preferably more often for functionality as they do malfunction. This is a very sore story that runs through my mind frequently because I inadvertently let a Squirrel become clinically dehydrated by neglecting the functionality of hanging water bottle and fortunately I recognized the issue and all was well after that but since then, frequently verifying the functionality of every hanging water bottle system has never been neglected since!

4) After any seizure, especially generalized prolonged and/or frequent seizures; there is often residual neuronal (neurons are the actual nerve cells) injury or damage or even neuronal "death" and while neurons that may have "died" will of course never recover; the extent of recovery if any of any injured neurons is not that predictable and will take some time to determine. There is a necessary time for healing and during this time, any neurons in the that are still functioning but are injured are likely to be somewhat irritable as well and this can lead to further seizure activity. I suspect that this is why your Vet chose the Gabapentin! I suspect that he may be inclined to feel that there is no underlying seizure disorder itself and that the seizures were from the potato (and again, I'm not going to speculate on this but it certainly may be) and now the issue is to "settle down" what may be some "irritable" neurons in order to help their recovery as best possible also to help prevent another seizure from neurons that may still have a propensity toward "irritability!" Gabapentin, by itself is not a very good medication for treating a seizure disorder that results in generalized seizure activity such as seizures Simon had but the Gabapentin may be ideal in some respects for maybe "toning down" some neuronal irritability!

5) while Gabapentin is actually quite safe in the recommended dosing range, there are possible adverse effects and generalized irritability is one of them and often relatively minor side-effects will wain as treatment progresses. It may be that any perceived irritability in Simon is from the Gabapentin or it may be from any residual irritability of brain neurons secondary to the seizure activity that recently went on or some of both.

6) Are you still following the MBD Treatment Protocol? What are you using as a source for Maintenance Calcium (Henry's Healthy Blocks or whatever) and what are you using as a source of Supplemental (Treatment) Calcium such as Tums or another Calcium source? Also, do NOT use any calcium source that contains Vitamin D as these are made for humans and the amount Vitamin D contained in these preparations potentially toxic to relatively tiny Squirrels!

Thanks again for your care of and love for Little Simon-Squirrel!

regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[ppodcor]

Hi Ppodcor and Simon:
I'm at work (so what else is new?!?) but will get back with you as soon as I can with some more of my HNVO's (humble non-vet opinion). I have a couple of preliminary questions/comments;

1) what is Simon's weight (the primary reason for my asking is that I estimate an approximate daily fluid intake for a healthy normally hydrated Squirrel to be around 10% of the Squirrel's body weight and with an accurate weight and accurate fluid consumption "numbers;" we can get a ballpark estimate as how close Simon might be to an optimal daily fluid intake). The formula is of course additional fluid intake and it should be "figured in" as well!

2) what is or are Simons water source(s) (a hanging bottle, water dish, both, whatever)?

3) if a hanging water bottle (which I use for most Squirrels in my care but I have at least 2 of the bottles in each cage), it is essential that you check the nozzles at least once per day and preferably more often for functionality as they do malfunction. This is a very sore story that runs through my mind frequently because I inadvertently let a Squirrel become clinically dehydrated by neglecting the functionality of hanging water bottle and fortunately I recognized the issue and all was well after that but since then, frequently verifying the functionality of every hanging water bottle system has never been neglected since!

4) After any seizure, especially generalized prolonged and/or frequent seizures; there is often residual neuronal (neurons are the actual nerve cells) injury or damage or even neuronal "death" and while neurons that may have "died" will of course never recover; the extent of recovery if any of any injured neurons is not that predictable and will take some time to determine. There is a necessary time for healing and during this time, any neurons in the that are still functioning but are injured are likely to be somewhat irritable as well and this can lead to further seizure activity. I suspect that this is why your Vet chose the Gabapentin! I suspect that he may be inclined to feel that there is no underlying seizure disorder itself and that the seizures were from the potato (and again, I'm not going to speculate on this but it certainly may be) and now the issue is to "settle down" what may be some "irritable" neurons in order to help their recovery as best possible also to help prevent another seizure from neurons that may still have a propensity toward "irritability!" Gabapentin, by itself is not a very good medication for treating a seizure disorder that results in generalized seizure activity such as seizures Simon had but the Gabapentin may be ideal in some respects for maybe "toning down" some neuronal irritability!

5) while Gabapentin is actually quite safe in the recommended dosing range, there are possible adverse effects and generalized irritability is one of them and often relatively minor side-effects will wain as treatment progresses. It may be that any perceived irritability in Simon is from the Gabapentin or it may be from any residual irritability of brain neurons secondary to the seizure activity that recently went on or some of both.

6) Are you still following the MBD Treatment Protocol? What are you using as a source for Maintenance Calcium (Henry's Healthy Blocks or whatever) and what are you using as a source of Supplemental (Treatment) Calcium such as Tums or another Calcium source? Also, do NOT use any calcium source that contains Vitamin D as these are made for humans and the amount Vitamin D contained in these preparations potentially toxic to relatively tiny Squirrels!

Thanks again for your care of and love for Little Simon-Squirrel!

regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thank you for the details.

We have had a hanging bottle in his cage since he was first starting, but we wanted to add a second one. Both are working properly. We check them each day. He is just not physically going up to it at the moment. But I did seenthat he peed a good amount! So I think that's a good sign he is not dehydrated.

On Saturday he weighed 310grams. Its so difficult to get an active weight on him. I left a VM with the vet to see if they had a different weight, and to inquire about the side affects of gabapentin/recovery.

We have continued with the MBD treatment. He has started to eat HHBs and some Mazuri Rat blocks, and a couple of blueberries. He had formula for two days up to 20cc during recovery when he wasnt eating blocks. We gave him broccoli and he has mostly just nibbled it.

We did tums initally, but I ordered the Calcium Carbonate from Henry's, and added 1/2 tsp (660mg) to his blueberries yesterday. I will do that again today.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thank you for the details.

We have had a hanging bottle in his cage since he was first starting, but we wanted to add a second one. Both are working properly. We check them each day. He is just not physically going up to it at the moment. But I did seenthat he peed a good amount! So I think that's a good sign he is not dehydrated.

On Saturday he weighed 310grams. Its so difficult to get an active weight on him. I left a VM with the vet to see if they had a different weight, and to inquire about the side affects of gabapentin/recovery.

We have continued with the MBD treatment. He has started to eat HHBs and some Mazuri Rat blocks, and a couple of blueberries. He had formula for two days up to 20cc during recovery when he wasnt eating blocks. We gave him broccoli and he has mostly just nibbled it.

We did tums initally, but I ordered the Calcium Carbonate from Henry's, and added 1/2 tsp (660mg) to his blueberries yesterday. I will do that again today.

Thanks for the update, Ppodcor! I would suggest being as calculated and accurate as possible with the Calcium that Simon is getting. First off; he will need what is termed Maintenance Calcium every day for the remainder of his life and this can generally be considered to be around 250mg of ELEMENTAL Calcium. Two HHBs contain a bit more than 250mg of Elemental Calcium so, IF Simon is consuming two entire HHBs each day, this alone will satisfy his Maintenance Calcium needs for as long as he continues to do so!. He will also need Supplemental Calcium for possibly up to a year to replenish his stores of Calcium lost from his bones with progression of MBD. Initially (and this amount will be slowly decreased in stages as treatment progresses), I would recommend the same amount of Elemental Calcium that Henrys recommends and that is 250mg of Elemental Calcium. Apparently you plan to continue supplementation with Henry's Calcium carbonate and there is nothing wrong with that BUT please recognized that Calcium carbonate CONTAINS Calcium but it is not all Calcium! In fact Calcium carbonate, of all of the usual Calcium combinations (called Calcium salts) contains the most Elemental Calcium but this is only 40% by weight! As an example only, using the 660mg of Calcium carbonate that you gave to Simon yesterday; he actually got 264mg of Elemental Calcium (40% of 660 is 264). This is all of the Supplemental Calcium he would need each day until you begin to decrease that by 50mg of elemental calcium every 3 to even 4 weeks (my modification of Henry's protocol) until Simon is getting on 100mg of Supplemental Calcium and then continue this for at least 3 months before further decrease and eventual elimination of the Supplemental Calcium!

Next; although it is a bit more of a bother for you, I would strongly recommend that the Supplemental Calcium NOT be administered in one serving or even two or three servings! I would recommend DIVIDING the Supplemental Calcium INTI 4-% SERVINGS given throughout your awake period during the day and NOT give in one "big" dose! This will aid in adsorption and utilization of the Supplemental Calcium along with making the supplemental Calcium more acceptable, tolerable and palatable for Simon!

IF you are able to talk Simon into eating a third HHB each day (3 HHBs should be the maximum number of the HHBs consumed in a 24 hour period), Simon will obtain an additional approximately 125mg of Elemental Calcium above his 250mg of Maintenance calcium that is derived from his first two HHBs of Calcium and this would of course be Supplemental Calcium and then you would only need to provide an additional 125 of Supplemental Calcium from Henry's Calcium Carbonate! To provide this Supplemental Calcium, all that would be needed would be 313 mg of Calcium carbonate (40% of 313 is 125) again divided into 4-5 servings throughout the day (NOT at once)!

With Simon's weight of 310 Grams, an estimate of optimal amount of fluid intake daily would be in the neighborhood of 31 milliliters (cc's). With the water and the formula, he may have been drinking this much daily already. You are correct about the urination and that fluids lost through urination tend to decrease as the Squirrel becomes dehydrated BUT there are exceptions. Also, neurologic conditions or injury can affect thirst and after the intense period seizure activity, there may be that factor to consider but again, it seems that Simon is getting close to a calculated adequate fluid intake but this should be monitored and quantitated as best you can so that you will know as accurately as possible; how much fluids Simon is drinking in a 24 hour period!

Please keep on with the updates about Simon!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[ppodcor]

Thanks for the update, Ppodcor! I would suggest being as calculated and accurate as possible with the Calcium that Simon is getting. First off; he will need what is termed Maintenance Calcium every day for the remainder of his life and this can generally be considered to be around 250mg of ELEMENTAL Calcium. Two HHBs contain a bit more than 250mg of Elemental Calcium so, IF Simon is consuming two entire HHBs each day, this alone will satisfy his Maintenance Calcium needs for as long as he continues to do so!. He will also need Supplemental Calcium for possibly up to a year to replenish his stores of Calcium lost from his bones with progression of MBD. Initially (and this amount will be slowly decreased in stages as treatment progresses), I would recommend the same amount of Elemental Calcium that Henrys recommends and that is 250mg of Elemental Calcium. Apparently you plan to continue supplementation with Henry's Calcium carbonate and there is nothing wrong with that BUT please recognized that Calcium carbonate CONTAINS Calcium but it is not all Calcium! In fact Calcium carbonate, of all of the usual Calcium combinations (called Calcium salts) contains the most Elemental Calcium but this is only 40% by weight! As an example only, using the 660mg of Calcium carbonate that you gave to Simon yesterday; he actually got 264mg of Elemental Calcium (40% of 660 is 264). This is all of the Supplemental Calcium he would need each day until you begin to decrease that by 50mg of elemental calcium every 3 to even 4 weeks (my modification of Henry's protocol) until Simon is getting on 100mg of Supplemental Calcium and then continue this for at least 3 months before further decrease and eventual elimination of the Supplemental Calcium!

Next; although it is a bit more of a bother for you, I would strongly recommend that the Supplemental Calcium NOT be administered in one serving or even two or three servings! I would recommend DIVIDING the Supplemental Calcium INTI 4-% SERVINGS given throughout your awake period during the day and NOT give in one "big" dose! This will aid in adsorption and utilization of the Supplemental Calcium along with making the supplemental Calcium more acceptable, tolerable and palatable for Simon!

IF you are able to talk Simon into eating a third HHB each day (3 HHBs should be the maximum number of the HHBs consumed in a 24 hour period), Simon will obtain an additional approximately 125mg of Elemental Calcium above his 250mg of Maintenance calcium that is derived from his first two HHBs of Calcium and this would of course be Supplemental Calcium and then you would only need to provide an additional 125 of Supplemental Calcium from Henry's Calcium Carbonate! To provide this Supplemental Calcium, all that would be needed would be 313 mg of Calcium carbonate (40% of 313 is 125) again divided into 4-5 servings throughout the day (NOT at once)!

With Simon's weight of 310 Grams, an estimate of optimal amount of fluid intake daily would be in the neighborhood of 31 milliliters (cc's). With the water and the formula, he may have been drinking this much daily already. You are correct about the urination and that fluids lost through urination tend to decrease as the Squirrel becomes dehydrated BUT there are exceptions. Also, neurologic conditions or injury can affect thirst and after the intense period seizure activity, there may be that factor to consider but again, it seems that Simon is getting close to a calculated adequate fluid intake but this should be monitored and quantitated as best you can so that you will know as accurately as possible; how much fluids Simon is drinking in a 24 hour period!

Please keep on with the updates about Simon!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

This is really helpful! Thank you. I will alter the calcium to four servings, and try to get him eating a third block.

Some good news, he did drink on his own from a shallow dish. We ended up allowing him to walk about his room to get a read on how he is moving. He hops around but ends up walking in circles. It's almost as if he can't see. But it's hard to tell. He did not show any indication of having difficulty seeing util today. He was definitely tracking me as I was walking around his cage yesterday


He is eating, he finds his food bowl on the floor, and now his shallow water dish. But he is not trying to climb. We fashioned a ramp up into his cage and he never attempted to get back into his cage.

He just kind of placed himself on the floor under his cage. When there were a few blankets elsewhere.

He was more relaxed with one of us being in there and there was no aggression but he wasn't really playing or anything.

He kept walking around this evening even with the sun going down when usually he would be in bed. It feels like his instincts are still just off.

I will try and get a video tomorrow.

Not sure what to do.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I would recommend DIVIDING the Supplemental Calcium INTI 4-% SERVINGS given throughout your awake period during the day and NOT give in one "big" dose! This will aid in adsorption and utilization of the Supplemental Calcium along with making the supplemental Calcium more acceptable, tolerable and palatable for Simon!

Hi Ppodcor:
The above is what I got by trying to type on my relatively tiny phone at work instead of using a computer keyboard at home! What I meant to say was;
"I would recommend DIVIDING the calculated total Supplemental Calcium into 4 to 5 SERVINGS spread throughout your awake period during the day and NOT given in one "big" dose or even 2 or 3!"

As far as Simon having developed any changes in behavior and/or sustaining any changes in functionality; I would expect at least some of this to occur simply because of his recent frequent and prolonged seizure activity and if the potato was actually a factor in provoking Simon's recent neurologic problems; any current problems may also be in part related to toxic levels of chaconine and solanine contained in the potato. I do believe that what is being seen now will not be the Simon's new base-line state and that improvements hopefully will become evident during the next few weeks although worsening of his condition or development of new abnormal signs is also a possibility! I believe that Simon needs some more time before any reasonable assessment can be made in regard to determining the nature and extent of any permanent or long term residual abnormalities and that right now; Simon will benefit best by your continued love, care and protection from injury along with probable further involvement of your Veterinarian! Continued use of Gabapentin, possible modification of the Gabapentin dosing regimen and/or utilization of other medication(s) should all be periodically reassessed by your Vet! My thoughts and hopes are with little Simon!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel