His eye has a swelling underneath it, but not above. I will try to take a good picture of it.
His eye has a swelling underneath it, but not above. I will try to take a good picture of it.
Thank you for your recent posts, Salty! I am still at work and although I expected to be available by now, it just didn't work out that way. I will not be able to get home until much later than I had anticipated. Nevertheless, I WILL get to your posts just as soon as I have time enough to be able to conscientiously and uninterruptedly read and respond to them (either later on this evening or in the early morning). Thanks again, Salty! Others are here as well and hopefully you will get some suggestions from them in addition to those I will provide for you as soon as I am able! Just for the record, does Kuzia have a Squirrel friendly and experienced Veterinarian?
Please give Kuzia a gentle goodnight Squirrel-hug from me!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Salty (01-30-2025)
Hello SamtheSquirrel2018! Thank you for your kind words!
About veterinarian, unfortunately, we don't have any squirrels friendly vets around where we live. Several were suggested by kind members of this forum, all 100+ miles away. I understand, that squirrels are okay with road trips. Still hoping that vet visit can be avoided, as, if the road wont stress him, the handling of unknown person probably will. However, i don't know much about it, and would greatly appreciate any advice on the matter.
Hi Salty and thank you for your very detailed history and diet posts!
Sorry about the forthcoming book---
I'm going to make some comments and suggestions for you to consider but I do want you to know that I am not a Veterinarian and everything I say is based upon an amalgam of my experience; evidence if available; the accounts of others who are experienced with Squirrel care; and in most cases, a hearty helping of MHNVO (my humble non-vet opinion)!
So much for that!
Starting off with the eye issue; I strongly suspect that what is going on behind the scenes so to speak is an infection originating from a tooth and the infection has now spread to surrounding structures such as soft tissues and possibly even bone! I feel that it would be best to have an experienced Veterinarian examine Kuzia with a focus on his head in general and specifically; his teeth, their surrounding structures and of course, Kuzia'a affected eye! I would also want to have at least a two view focused skull x-ray study and an x-ray of Kuzia's entire body to search for skeletal evidence of MBD. Remember, however; that the bones can look completely normal even though MBD does in fact exist so a normal skeletal x-ray study does NOT rule-out MBD but an abnormal skeletal x-ray study may demonstrate evidence to support this diagnosis!
I would recommend an evaluation by a safe and experienced Veterinarian. The Vet will usually sedate the Squirrel with some inhaled anesthetic gas which will facilitate a thorough and painless examination and will prevent fear and pain that might result if no sedation is utilized. The bottom line though, is that without sedation, most examinations and many treatments are simply impossible!
Another major concern I have is the force-feeding and my concern regarding this concern is multifactorial! The most prevailing concern I have is the risk for aspiration during force-feeding! Swallowing is a complex coordinated function and the presence of food or fluid toward the back of the mouth is a trigger for swallowing. The animal must coordinate the actual eating or drinking to get the ingested material positioned toward the back of the mouth for swallowing to occur. During this time, breathing is stopped and the pathway into the lungs is effectively blocked to prevent aspiration (getting swallowed material into the lungs instead of the stomach). All this is done naturally and without conscious effort by the Squirrel!
When an animal is force-fed, none of the many highly coordinated events of swallowing occur and the animal is often breathing in when food is forced into the mouth or down the throat and aspiration occurs! This can be deadly!
The other concerns I have are the very likely associated emotions of fear and anxiety among others that would be associated with force-feeding! I have no doubt that Squirrels and other animals experience emotions and while they may or may not be able to indulge in introspection of self-reflection; any potential suffering in itself; is a concern, if not an indication for modifying treatment or whatever! Also, as in humans, most likely there is a sensation of choking during force-feeding because this is a sensation that results from the presence of "uninvited" food and this presence stimulating involuntary protective reflexes to prevent aspiration!
In summary, Salty; I would like us to find a way ASAP to eliminate any force-feeding while also providing optimal nutrition and supplemental calcium to treat what I suspect is underlying MBD! IMHO, we need to find adequate food with an "inviting" taste that has a consistency that makes it easy to swallow. MBD impair normal appetite and chewing or biting food is also often impossible or difficult because of associated bone pain! Further, from your photos, it does appear to my feeble eyes that Kuzia's upper incisors are very short and/or there is significant swelling of the gum region surrounding these two teeth! Please try to clarify this!
Henrys Healthy Blocks (HHB) are often a very good way to provide all of the MAINTENACE nutritional requirements (this is what is required every day and does NOT include the SUPPLEMENTAL or TREATMENT calcium that is also required for treating MBD) including Calcium while also providing an optimal Calcium to Phosphorus ratio! All that is needed is to ensure that Kuzia consumes only two HHBs each day. HHBs are very concentrated and that is why they are so useful for treating MBD! All that is need is to find a way to make these palatable for Kuzia. They are soft to begin with but occasionally contain larger pieces of nuts and the HHBs can be ground up and mixed with some baby food so that is in the form of a soft, tasty dough and hopefully this facilitate Kuzia's resumption of eating on his own! One of the baby food option most of the Squirrels who have needed this sort of special nutritional support seem to like is Gerber Sitter Style Banana/Apple/Pear baby food. You can also consider mixing the HHBs with a good Squirrel formula such as Fox Valley 20/50.
Only two HHBs (about 10 grams) will supply around 250mg of Elemental Calcium which is a full days worth of MAINTENACE calcium. You will still need, at least for the next two to three weeks; around 250mg of ADDITIONAL (Supplemental or Treatment) ELEMENTAL Calcium. Half of this could be derived from giving one additional HHB and then all that would be necessary would be to provide another 125mg (or so) of Elemental Calcium. I would strongly recommend that you limit HHBs to no more than three per day!
After two to three weeks (I prefer three) the Supplemental Calcium (NOT the Maintenance calcium) can be decreased by 50mg every three weeks until your Squirrel is down to 100mg of Supplemental Elemental Calcium and continue this for at least 3 months before considering further decrease or elimination of Supplemental Calcium. The time-frames I suggested differ just a bit from Henry's Recommendations but I would opt for a somewhat longer treatment time-frame.
Also, it is necessary to recognize that you must use the calculated Elemental Calcium which is the "pure" Calcium. For instance, Calcium Carbonate contain 40% elemental Calcium so as an example only; if you might need 100mg of Elemental Calcium, you would need to give 250mg of Calcium carbonate! You can get Calcium Carbonate from Henry's or a pharmacy or you can use Tums or the generic calcium carbonate tablets that are the same as Tums only cheaper! It is essential that whatever you preparation you use, ensure without any doubt that it does NOT contain any Vitamin D or any other ingredients beside the Calcium Carbonate and perhaps some flavoring.
As an example, only one Tums tablet that lists having 500mg of Calcium carbonate per tablet; contains 200mg of Elemental Calcium! This is almost the full recommended initial Supplemental Calcium which is, again, 250mg of elemental calcium!
I would also suggest, Salty, that you stop all of the stuff that you have been giving Kuzia as food and use quality Blocks (preferably HHBs initially because they are so concentrated. It's not that all of what you are feeding is "bad" but much of it such as fruits, nuts and some of the vegetables have a very poor Calcium to phosphorus ratio and these alone can result in MBD developing or make it impossible for treatment to be effective!
In summary, I would suggest using the HHBs as the basis for Kuzia's nutritional support but change the consistency while also adding some flavoring with baby food or formula to make it soft or pasty and tasty and try to get Kuzia to eat it while discontinuing the potential problematic force-feeding! 250mg of Elemental Calcium EVERY DAY as Maintenance Calcium and to start treatment for MBD, add an additional 250mg of Elemental Calcium each day for 3 weeks before decreasing the supplemental calcium. Again, even one Tums table containing 500mg of Calcium Carbonate contains 200mg of Elemental Calcium which is nearly the full daily Supplemental Calcium! If using the Tums, you can grind the tablet into a powder and mix it into a small amount of baby food or whatever and give that in 4 to 5 doses over the full day. If Kuzia will consume 3 HHBs per day, you will only need 1/2 of a Tums Tablet containing 500mg of Calcium carbonate for Kuzia to get ALL of his Daily Maintenance AND Supplemental (treatment) Elemental Calcium!!
Please post photos of any Tums (or generic calcium carbonate tablets) for verification of the Elemental Calcium content! Surprisingly to me, is that I am still at work and I apologize for any typos or unclear statements as I have been typing intermittently while typing on my tiny phone! Please post any questions or issues and I will try to back to you just as soon as possible!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Salty (01-30-2025)
Salty - just quickly, no corn and no seeds. They can lead to or contribute to MBD.
Jamie
"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
Salty (01-30-2025)
Hello everyone!
This is what his eye looks like today. Picture taken during administering of medicine/calcium.
He tried to eat the HHBlock, but i think it still hurts him, because he was very careful when chewing on it. But he did crush it (this is how he eats them, i.e. he will eat a little bit, and then starts grinding and crushing it, looking for nuts inside)
SamtheSquirrel2018 (01-30-2025)
Thanks, Salty! It appears to my feeble eyes that there is less swelling of Kuzia's eyelids! You can see the tiny area of redness between where the upper and lower eyelids come together and the dark round clear area called the cornea. The redness is of the small portion of the conjunctiva that is normally visible and this redness is a conjunctivitis is what is hopefully being treated with the Ofloxacin drops. Again, the conjunctiva is a thin membrane that covers the outside portion of the eyeball except that it does not cover the cornea and before it would extend behind the eye it folds outward and extends over the inner side of the upper and lower eyelids. Please post further photos and regular updates on Kuzia including how his eye and diet and presumptive treatment for MBD are coming along!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Salty - have you considered mashing up a henry's block with a little water and maybe just a touch of sugar? Maybe put some of his calcium in the mix?
"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
I understand your worry about the stress of a road trip and handling but this issue has gone on for a significant length of time with no major improvement. 100+ miles to travel to a reputable squirrel vet should not be a deal breaker, even though isn’t optimal. Considering there are members that have traveled from California and Texas to Florida to have their squirrels seen. Vets that see squirrels are familiar with the best ways to handle them. In order for the squirrel to be handled for X-rays, and maybe even an exam, it must be sedated. Most vets use isofluorine gas to sedate. Also, I have found most squirrels travel extremely well if their enclosure is covered with a sheet or blanket.
Please, I urge you to make an appointment with a recommended vet so you can get to the bottom of what’s going on with your little guy.
Salty (01-31-2025), SamtheSquirrel2018 (01-31-2025), TomahawkFlyers (01-31-2025)
Yes. What Mel1959 said.
"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
Hello!
Today, the eye looks better, with much less swelling, almost not noticeable, sorry i did not get the picture, maybe in the evening. He is still reluctant to chew, he ate 2 blueberries, and little persimmon. So far he gets antibiotic, ibuprofen and calcium. We did not start on the drops yet, and maybe it is okay, i have to make a photo of the eye to post here.
As far as going to the doctor, i am thinking about it, because his chewing is not normal, and does not seem to be improving. I am wondering, can MDB cause excessive growth of tooth same way it caused the paw nails to grow. Here is what his nails looked like before we started administering calcium in the summer. He would have to twist his finger sideways for the nail to lay flat sideways when he moved around. After he started getting calcium, condition went away, after a while. I bet it wont happen with the tooth, unless it is some sort of gum inflammation. Can not get him comfortable enough to take a good look it, but bottom tooth seem very long. Than again, i never really looked at them before, maybe it is normal.
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Hi Salty:
I have been quite busy and away from TSB but it looks like I may have a free day today!!! Anyway, I'm sorry I have not been able to keep up on your thread (or anyone's) for the past couple of days!
As I mentioned in my last following your posting of photos of Kuzia's eye; the swelling of his eyelids seemed significantly decreased and that is a very good sign! The small portion of conjunctiva that was visible in the photo was still quite red and this is certainly consistent with a conjunctivitis (an inflammation/infection) of the thin covering over the outer portion of the eye that also as mentioned, curves outward over the inner surface of the eyelids). Please look again at Kuzia's eyes for continued redness of the conjunctiva and please post some photos that include the eyelids and at least some of the conjunctive for comparison with your most recent photos and if your would, please post similar views of BOTH eyes for comparison between sides.
Next, MBD does NOT cause excessive growth of teeth and can cause problems with incisor growth and weakness of the bony supporting regions teeth which can result in pain (this is one of the primary reasons for decreased appetite associated with MBD but MBD can and does affect appetite directly) and even fractures of the jaw!
Let me respectfully talk about the assumed "increased" claw growth that you and others as well have attributed to MBD. For the same reason that one might see an apparent increased "growth" of the claws of a Squirrel with MBD, there may appear to be an increased "growth" rate of the incisors but NEITHER is really from MBD causing an increased growth of nails or teeth and more to the point; is NOT an increased growth rate at all! This is just an illusion based upon the fact that the claws and the four incisors continue to grow throughout a Squirrels entire life! MBD can actually slow the growth of the teeth and/or affect the structure of the new incisor growth! BOTH the Squirrel's continually growing incisors AND the continually growing claws must be "trimmed" by the Squirrel to prevent overgrowth of both! This "trimming" of claws and incisors is accomplished naturally; the incisors through biting hard foods or biting other relatively hard objects and the claws through running, climbing and jumping! MBD makes activity very uncomfortable and and it also adversely affects availability of energy which adversely affects the ability of the Squirrel to indulge in activity. Thus, NEITHER nail growth nor incisor growth increases with MBD and may in fact; likely decrease! The possible APPARENT increased growth rate of claws and incisors that may be seen with MBD has nothing really to do with MBD possibly potentiating the growth rate of claws or incisors; it is due solely to the relative DECREASE in normal activity along with DECREASE in the normal use the incisors that would ordinarily be responsible for keeping both claws and incisors "trimmed" and of "normal" length that is adversely affected by MBD! So, any apparent increased claw growth or increased incisor growth rate seen in a Squirrel with MBD is actually an illusion based upon decrease wear of teeth and nails and NOT increased growth!
How Kuzia doing today? Please keep on with the updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
CritterMom (02-02-2025), Salty (02-02-2025)
Hello everyone! Sorry for not answering to your comments!! I had a close relative at the hospital with very serious problem. Kuzia did not get his last 3 doses, but got one today.
So, we have got to check his tooth, and i think there is a serious problem. It looks like the first pictures, that we thought had a bad perspective, turned out to be true. His upper teeth are very short. I did not make the picture, but it looked just like on the other picture i posted here. I am reposting it here, it looked the same to me, unless i am not pulling his lips in the correct way:
Attachment 328883
Gum swelling? Probably not, right?
Here are current picture of upper teeth, also look strange, again i never checked them before, so not sure
Attachment 328884
Attachment 328885
So, i will have to take him to a vet, will try to do it in the middle of next week, as i will be busy mo - we. Hopefully i will be able to make an appointment.
His physical condition improved, some redness on the left eye eye lids, but eye and cheek swellings are not visible. Much more active, and quick. Still sleeps a lot, but i would not call it lethargic anymore, not as much sleep as in the beginning.
Hi Salty:
How is Kuzia doing today? From reading your posts it appears that Kuzia missed 3 doses of his Amoxicillin plus Clavulanate. Is he now back on this medication regularly? Also, from reading your post, it sounds as if you elected to hold off on the Ofloxacin. Is that correct? I am not suggesting necessarily that you reconsider; I just wanted to get clarification on what is going on with Kuzia! Hopefully you will be able to contact a Squirrel-friendly and rodent experienced Veterinarian today for an appointment ASAP!
Thanks!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Hello SamtheSquirrel2018! He missed three doses, yes. There were no two people by him during this time, and i alone can not administer. Like i said, i had to be in a hospital.
His strength has improved, he even played a little with me today., and started doing some of his regular mischief.
The eye swelling went away, though there are still some issues to the way eye looks. It appears bulging, i will post picture.
The reason we did not give the eye drops, is that swelling seemed to be decreasing, and now it went away.
Do you think, from those tooth pictures, it is possible he broke them off? Because if you look, the edge of the tooth that is showing is serrated, not straight. If the tooth would grow in, the edge of the teeth would still be straight, no? What do you think?
Thank you very much for your support!!
PS: I know the vet needs to see him, and i will get to it asap.
Yes, Salty, the upper incisors appear to me to be fractured (broken)! Did you pursue MBD treatment and make any changes in Kuzia's diet? I'm glad that a Vet visit is part of the current plan! Just make sure that you vet the Vet! The facility MUST be Squirrel-friendly and hopefully experienced with Squirrel care or at least care of pet Rats! Also, it is essential that you are assured that Kuzia will NOT be confiscated, transferred to another facility or a government Wildlife Department or maybe worse yet, euthanized! ALL of these sad events have occurred to trusting Squirrelers! Ask all of the questions point-blank on your initial call and do NOT give out your name and especially your address until you are satisfied!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
I’m glad you are going to take Kuzbass to the vet. As I said, upper teeth that are non-existent can certainly be a sign of odontomas. Nasal discharge and inflammed eyes or white tears can also be a symptom. Please let us know what the vet finds.
Salty (02-07-2025), SamtheSquirrel2018 (02-03-2025)
I’ve been thinking about Kuzia. How’s he doing? Have you been able to see a vet?
SamtheSquirrel2018 (02-06-2025)
Hello Mel1959!
Kuzia is improving, i think. More movement, more vigorous chewing on the blocks, more eating! Stays out for longer time, too. Problem is, he starting to hate the medicine more and more, with each administering. But, there is a positive to it, too. After i give the medicine, to get rid of the bad taste, he chews on Zupreem blocks like never before. I was trying to get him to eat it, and now he starting to develop a taste for it, i hope. I have read that these blocks can be his main food, so it is a good thing. He ate one today while sitting on my shoulder, without any medicine, almost finished it too.
We are contacting one place tomorrow, hope it will work out.