I'm new; any help appreciated

[Craig]

Not surprising he is developing diarrhea... I was surprised he did not have it earlier which is why I was very cautious is saying it *may* be okay to continue with that). Switching formulas often can be hard on their little systems and thankfully this baby is older and *hopefully* will have less impact.

Since he is having diarrhea now I would strongly suggest switching to the temporary homemade goat's formula until and unless you get either the FV 20/50 or the Esbilac powder.

Homemade Goat Milk Formula (HGMF):

• 3 tablespoons goat milk
  
• 3 tablespoons plain yogurt
  
• 2 tablespoons heavy cream
  

These should be available at the local grocery store, and if the do not have goat's milk in a carton in the diary section they will have a powdered version on the shelf somewhere. The HGMF is usually tolerated very well, but is only a temporary fix since it lacks all the necessary nutrients (and the Esbilac liquid lacks them as well).

I woke up and fed him using another frozen portion of the Esbilac puppy milk replacement liquid I thawed yesterday before checking this board. He may be handling the frozen stuff a bit better, either that or I just haven't noticed if his bowel movements have been continuing poorly.

This may be the case however, as both yesterday morning and this morning, his weight had dropped significantly from its high point during the end of the day previous. He went from weighing 20 grams last night to in the evening to only 18.5 this morning before feeding. Yesterday morning, he weighed closer to 18 when he was almost 20 the night before. Not sure if this is normal or a result of the poor quality formula.

Either way, I called the store I ordered the powder from, and they said it should be delivered by 1, which is his next feeding time so I will be sure to switch to that and be using it within the next 4 hours. Is there anything I should keep in mind when switching formula? Anything that might help then smoothly transition with minimal risk of problems arising?

Also he does seem to stay relatively active I believe which is good. This is the third day I've been woken up by him running around his enclosure, which I can't complain about as it indicates he isn't sick.

[Craig]

The Esbilac powder has been delivered. I hope this is the right brand and product. There is a scoop included. I assume it is the same mixing ratio as labeled on the back, being 1 part esbilac powder and 2 parts warm water. Will feed him in less than 30 minutes

[Craig]

I was reading online that this is the new version and isn't really recommended compared to the older one with a white puppy on the front. Would that mean I should switch entirely to 20/50 when it arrives or continue to use half of the Esbilac powde still? Is the risk of using this newer version detrimental?

[Craig]

Hello, just an update! I am very happy that I went ahead and purchased the Esbilac powder as I checked on the delivery for the 20/50 and sure enough it was delayed to Saturday! Almost a whole week away; and it still isn't even labeled as having been shipped. I am considering canceling it and ordering it from somewhere which will send it out sooner, though Im not sure where else might ship it sooner. Should I look into doing this? Is it ok to continue using the powder for another week until the 20/50 comes in or is it better to have the 20/50 sooner rather than later?

[Chirps]

Hi Craig, there was a problem with Esbilac a couple of years ago, but it seems to be sorted now, and that is the puppy you want.

[TomahawkFlyers]

Hello, just an update! I am very happy that I went ahead and purchased the Esbilac powder as I checked on the delivery for the 20/50 and sure enough it was delayed to Saturday! Almost a whole week away; and it still isn't even labeled as having been shipped. I am considering canceling it and ordering it from somewhere which will send it out sooner, though Im not sure where else might ship it sooner. Should I look into doing this? Is it ok to continue using the powder for another week until the 20/50 comes in or is it better to have the 20/50 sooner rather than later?

Hi Craig - the Esbilac will do just fine until the 20/50 arrives. In fact, your little guy might prefer to stay with the Esbilac for a bit. When you do make the switch, best to mix the two together to give his system a chance to keep up and not upset his digestive process. A selfish request? More pictures, please!

Jamie

[Craig]

Hi Craig - the Esbilac will do just fine until the 20/50 arrives. In fact, your little guy might prefer to stay with the Esbilac for a bit. When you do make the switch, best to mix the two together to give his system a chance to keep up and not upset his digestive process. A selfish request? More pictures, please!

Jamie

I can absolutely send more pictures!

Also his bonding pouch came in today so I ran it through the wash quickly and air dried it. He hasn't tried to climb out but I am under the impression he could if he wanted to. If not, I can pull him out once he's up and moving about. Also was wondering if there is any risk involved with dehydration or overheating in the pouch. Is there a recommended time like pull them out for 5 minutes every 30 minutes or is it more lenient than that?

He has been napping quite a bit today, and hasn't climbed up my shirt as much as he was the days previous, instead choosing to stay cupped in my hands. I imagine this is just a result of his body getting used to the formula switch.

I did also notice in his most recent feeding that the 1 mL syringe was becoming difficult to push, and I had to rock it back and forth. I played around with it after finishing feeding testing the resistance with the plunger. On some tests, it went down relatively smooth, while other times, it would quickly sink down over half of the syringes length. I imagine that is very much not an ideal thing to happen when feeding, so I attempted to pick up some new 1 mL syringes with o rings instead of the thicker plunger. Unfortunately pharmacies are closed for tonight so I will have to go tomorrow. In the meantime, I looked up what to do and saw that I can potentially smear a small amount of coconut oil on the rubber plunger and pump it a few times to lessen the resistance. Just wanted to include this to see if the coconut oil would in fact be a good temporary solution for a few more feedings until I can get more syringes tomorrow.

Anyways, here are some pictures. I have videos too, though I'm not sure if it will let me send them through or not, and imgur links aren't working for me for some reason.

https://imgur.com/a/XxYFuFt
https://imgur.com/a/wzFlMqr
These may or may not work

[Craig]

I went ahead and put a bit of coconut oil on it but it doesn't seem to help. If anything, it's even more finicky. Not too sure what to do, or if I should even possibly skip a feeding or two until I can get my hands on a safer syringe

[Craig]

I washed out some of the oil and got the syringe to a more stable resistance. I've just finished feeding him, and for the most part, the syringe pushed down slow and steady. Once it got down to the final 0.3 mL however, it did start to jolt forward about 0.05 mL at a time which concerns me. In addition to this, there was dribbles of the formula on the tissue paper he was sat on while I fed him. From what I've noticed, there usually is but there might've been a bit more this time.

I also noticed he refused more once he had finished the first syringe, only having about 0.95 mL instead of upwards of 1.3 mL. Not sure if this is the result of switching to a more filling formula or if this is because of the jolting of the syringe making it hard for him to feed

Again, all pharmacies near me are closed, and I am really hoping I will have better luck finding one tomorrow before his first feeding in the morning. However, I usually also feed him at 1 am. His last feeding was around 9:45 as I tried to fix the syringe issue first. Any recommendations on what I should do would be greatly appreciated. I feel as if I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.

After some consideration, I've decided unless I can ensure the syringe is stable to a significant degree, I will skip his 1 am feeding. I know it is not ideal, but I think that would be better than to potentially aspirate him. I will get a new one as soon as I can tomorrow. I will work to try to fix the syringe I currently have in the meantime. It is currently 10 pm. I will check back for replies throughout the night.

[TomahawkFlyers]

I don't see the first part of this, but am assuming your syringe has become erratic/unsmooth. Coconut oil becomes sticky when exposed to air. If you have some olive oil, wash the syringe with warm soapy water to get rid of the coconut oil, dry it well, and then use just the tiniest bit of olive oil to lubricate the rubber ring. Do not, please, do not skip feedings.

Craig, I have literally hundreds of brand new 1ml syringes. You can have a fistful of them, no charge at all, not even postage. Let me know where to send them?

Jamie

Ah! Now I see it. If you are pushing the plunger down, toward the floor, your little guy must be feeding face up. Don't forget to feed him face down. If the plunger jolts, he'll have a good chance of not inhaling the formula. And yes, he will eat less as he becomes more nourished. It is entirely possible that as his diet is changed to the powdered formula, his tummy might be a little upset. Change is a big deal for these kids. Anyway, if you want a bunch of syringes, just let me know. I'll put them in the mail first thing in the morning.

By the way, nice pouch. If you have a Walmart or a Menards nearby, a couple dozen 2" squares cut from a $3 fleece blanket will give your kid the comfort of kings. Flyers like to bury themselves.

[Craig]

I don't see the first part of this, but am assuming your syringe has become erratic/unsmooth. Coconut oil becomes sticky when exposed to air. If you have some olive oil, wash the syringe with warm soapy water to get rid of the coconut oil, dry it well, and then use just the tiniest bit of olive oil to lubricate the rubber ring. Do not, please, do not skip feedings.

Craig, I have literally hundreds of brand new 1ml syringes. You can have a fistful of them, no charge at all, not even postage. Let me know where to send them?

Jamie

Ah! Now I see it. If you are pushing the plunger down, toward the floor, your little guy must be feeding face up. Don't forget to feed him face down. If the plunger jolts, he'll have a good chance of not inhaling the formula. And yes, he will eat less as he becomes more nourished. It is entirely possible that as his diet is changed to the powdered formula, his tummy might be a little upset. Change is a big deal for these kids. Anyway, if you want a bunch of syringes, just let me know. I'll put them in the mail first thing in the morning.

By the way, nice pouch. If you have a Walmart or a Menards nearby, a couple dozen 2" squares cut from a $3 fleece blanket will give your kid the comfort of kings. Flyers like to bury themselves.

Thank you for the response! I do not have olive oil but I do have grapeseed oil if that works as well. I will wash it out and try that if so. If it really isn't a bother, I can PM you with my address. I would happily take any syringes you offer.

I typically have the syringe rotated at roughly 45 upwards, and have him sitting on the edge of the table with the syringe off to the side pointed toward the roof of his mouth. He usually ends up grabbing the syringe with his paws and I lower the syringe so his head is angled slightly downwards, around 15 degrees down from looking straight ahead if that makes sense, though sometimes he likes to roll over while feeding. If he does, I immediately stop and put him back on all fours. Is this how I am supposed to do it or should he be in a different position? Also I noticed later that there was some grit in the end of the syringe, so I now suspect he may have rejected the rest of his feed because it wasn't fully mixed and had a bad aftertaste.

I wasn't aware of the importance of not missing a feeding. Just to be clear, I have been feeding him every 4 hours from the time I wake up until the time I go to sleep, or 5 times a day. I am currently under the impression that I do not have to get up in the middle of the night or break up my sleep to continue feeding him. Is this OK as well or should I be feeding him around the clock? Thank you! I will be sure to PM you

[TomahawkFlyers]

Syringes on the way. Will get you a tracking number in the morning.

I've never tried grape seed oil. Best bet is as little as needed to lightly coat the ring. I'd like to know if it works. If it does, I can add it to my own bag of tricks.

Position sounds great! Regularity is important. These little guys are so danged sensitive to every little thing. I think we're in the same time zone - it's almost midnight here. Our flyers are rockin' the room. Time for this old man to turn in!.

Jamie

[Craig]

Just an update:

The little guy is eating well. He still eats to his maximum amount and I have to cut him off once he's had enough. I have noticed however that he has exhibited some new habits this evening which may potentially be of some concern, though I could be overanalyzing it as well.

I noticed his claws have been getting caught in my shirt, though I've never worn this shirt since I've had him so it could be the material it is made of. Today, I also noticed him sometimes resting at the top of the pouch but when I hold my hand for him to climb on, he prefers to stay inside near the top zipper. He was climbing up my shirt earlier today and seemed to have exploratory behavior, but now when I put him on my shirt, he just wants to sit still and curl in my hand. If I set him on the table and hold my hands at the end of it, he moves slowly into my hands and rests there. His eyes are usually closed when resting and when I place him down, he wakes and opens them but only slightly and not big and wide. I last fed him around 2 and a half hours ago. He is currently in bottom of the bonding pouch cleaning himself. I had small cuts of fleece filling the bonding pouch but I pulled them out as I wasn't sure if his body was feeling cold or not when I picked him up out of it, as my mind was already running wild looking for more symptoms. I believe it was more so his feet and claws that I was feeling, but it still worried me. I looked up what the cause of these symptoms could be but have only found results for MBD.

After feeding, he also used the bathroom and his stools seemed to be flattened, maybe liquid and without form, though he did not go much either, and it was only a few spots. When I picked him up, his feet were cold but I believe it was because he had peed a puddle on my desk and dampened them in it. I happened to pick up "e-cuttlebone" for birds at the store today which I read can be given to squirrels as well and help with calcium deficiency. It is still in the package however, as I'm not sure if I can just give him the whole thing or not, or if its even necessary at this time. To my knowledge, Esbilac powder has calcium in it, so I'm hesitant to assume he has MDB. He has opened his eyes wider but mostly keeps them shut or close to shut. I also noticed stains on his back feet which I'm hoping is not blood or bruising. I tried dabbing it with a wet kleenex but he kicked me away and I don't want to potentially be hurting him.

I am hoping I am overreacting, and a big part of me thinks I am, but I wanted to post what has been going on in case it isn't nothing. I'm hoping he is just being lazy because he is nocturnal and his belly is actually full of nutritious formula, though it's almost been 3 hours since he last fed.

[Craig]

Just fed him and he does seem to be just about back to his normal self. He is also warm. I did notice my hands were cold themselves earlier which may have confused me. I'd added the fleece I have back to the bonding pouch.

[TomahawkFlyers]

Craig, your little guy is just being a flyer. Everything you have described is normal, including the flattened poop - he is in transition from one type of formula to another. That equals soft poop. When he feels safe, he won't open his eyes very much during the day any more than you would yours if your dad woke you at 3:30 a.m. to go mow the lawn.When he gets old enough, your guy will absolutely want and need a cage-mounted wheel. There are several types out there, some dangerous, some mediocre, and at least one really good one. We've tried several and all of ours are now Freedom Wheels from myfreerunner.com. One of the accessories is called TrimTrax - when your guy runs, his nails are automatically and gently kept a little blunt and at a reasonable length. Not cheap, but you will only buy one for his approximately 10-year lifetime. Any wheel with a lip or fancy partially open enclosure on the front can injure your kid, and a wheel that is too small can harm his back. A cheap one will make noise, not spin freely for very long, and might even come off its hub and hurt or kill your friend. Flyers are not cheap to keep - but they are worth every penny in the loving companionship they share with you. You, Craig, are a special guy for having put yourself out there for this baby. Good on you!

Jamie

[TomahawkFlyers]

Hi Craig!

How about an update? How is your little guy doing? Do you need anything?

Jamie

[Craig]

Hello! He is doing well! He has found he likes to be under my shirt on my shoulder most. He is back to crawling all over me, sometimes it's actually difficult to keep him in the pouch when I have to use my hands to do something, so luckily it has that zipper.

I received my shipment of Fox Valley 20/50. I was wondering when might a good time be to make the switch? I was also wondering how long until he can be moved into a proper cage. I haven't bought one just yet but I am curious. He is currently in a large plastic storage bin and my main concern is he may be able to crawl out at night, though he hasn't yet. The plastic walls of the container may be too slick for him but I would like to get a cage soon just to be safe.

Also if you are able to send photos or links to some of the cage designs you reccomend for flyers, that would be very helpful. There are quite a few sizes and designs for Critter Nation cages and I'm not sure which are for ferrets and which are for squirrels, etc.

[Craig]

Also I just finished feeding him and I did have some questions about mixing the formula. It seems when I mix it, it doesn't always mix well and there are what seems to be solids or foam caked on the sides of the container and the mixing utensil. If I mix it using warm water, this helps, but some sources have given me the impression that once it has been warmed, it must be used for the immediate feeding and any remaining warm formula is to be tossed out. Am I misunderstanding this? Can I use warm water to prepare the formula or should I only use cold?

[TomahawkFlyers]

Yay Craig!!!

For the formula, we mix ours with very warm (not hot) water and we shake it. We do not stir it. That helps a lot with clumping. It is perfectly OK to refrigerate the remainder, fill the next syringe, put your finger over the opening, and run the syringe under hot water until the formula is very warm. Voila! No waste. The remainder in the container that gets shaken will be OK for 24 hours. Pam has some syringe tips that you can put on the end of 1ml syringes. We'll send you a few and you can fill 2 or 3 syringes at a time, use one, put the others in the fridge, and heat them under the running hot water as you need them.

Regarding when to move to 20/50, under normal circumstances, you're in that zone now. However, given the little guy's rough start, I'd give him another week or so. Don't forget to transition and not ask the kid to go cold turkey. Cold turkey is hard on these little ones' digestive system.

When you write about your flyer's favorite place to be, you take me back to fond memories of our first rescue flyer, Louie. That's exactly where he liked to stay. Your guy is really, REALLY attached to you.

I'll hunt down a picture of the Critter Nation cage. Ferret Nation (made by the same company) is the wrong one. Your little guy, even as an adult, will wiggle right through the bars of a Ferret Nation cage. Warning, Craig, hold onto your wallet. A Midwest Critter Nation cage is expensive. Flyers like high places (safety from predators instincts.) A double with the ceiling of the bottom and floor of the top removed is ideal. They like the space to glide. I encourage you to start watching Craigslist for a good used one. We have 2 double units and a triple (a double with an add-on single). They're all in use. We bought them all used, scrubbed and disinfected them with vet spray, and they are just as good as new for pennies on the dollar. Watch for a picture from me. If you had one now, it would be fine to use it now instead off the tub. Just hang his pouch from one of the shelves. He'll sleep in there, have fresh air, and the ability to run around and "gain his legs."

Jamie

A double is usually about $325, maybe more. Here is a new one on sale for $215. https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568...yAdapt=glo2usa Craigslist has been between $50 and $100. Picture coming up.

[TomahawkFlyers]

OK! Found them. Midwest makes two double models. The first is the Ferret Nation. It is model 182 and has vertical bars. This is NOT the one you need.
The second is the Critter Nation. It is model 162 and has horizontal bars. This is the one you need.



Happy Hunting!

Jamie