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Thread: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

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    Default Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    My 12 year old squirrel is improving her strength, weight, balance, and activity, since my diet experiments to feed more calcium that she would eat.

    BUT we are having a problem finding and understanding the conflicting info on Ca\Mg ratios and more importantly, if they need to be served together or separately.

    Does feeding Calcium ( citrate ) and Magnesium ( citrate ) together prevent the absorption and their needed metabolism to strengthen bones and counteract other MBD issues?

    Is it better to feed Magnesium at different times than the calcium rich meal ?

    Is Magnesium Citrate at a different time, better and easier on than just serving Almonds which are one of the highest sources of elemental Magnesium ?
    And if almonds are better, are we speaking of dry roasted, or raw almonds ( regarding Oxalates )

    What about Vitamin K2 ? She is eating plenty of Romaine lettuce. But if she needs K2 to more efficiently process the Calcium - how much and how should it be sourced ?

    Here is more of her history that I included in a post a few months ago.


    She gets plenty of Sunshine.... and some days can be very active.

    Yet I see a definite relationship between her balance, a day after a bit more calcium, and a day after she has had less.

    Since my last post on my squirrel.. I have been doing a lot of diet testing, and have documented her response to each.
    Yet this magnesium issue, and finding a balance that she feels good about and can continue to improve with, is frustrating.

    Adding a bit more magnesium citrate to her food, results in soft poops and I get the impression she doesn't feel as well.

    Serving her a few raw almonds separately, along with HHBs, lettuce, mushrooms, and rodent nuggets
    (which she was brought up on and actually likes), leads her to consume less of my special calcium rich mix,
    and then she is less balanced the next day.

    So I am wondering if I should abandon the Magnesium Citrate, totally in the Calcium mix I feed her, and just rely on the almonds.
    OR if I should abandon the almonds totally and need to make a separate magnesium mix to be eaten at different times

    Generally she eats about 4-5 times a day, in varying amounts, depending on how her day starts.


    Here is the background on my squirrel from a link I posted a few months ago.
    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...55#post1366855
    Last edited by BigNibbler; 06-26-2024 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Inserted Link to prior history

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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigNibbler View Post
    My 12 year old squirrel is improving her strength, weight, balance, and activity, since my diet experiments to feed more calcium that she would eat.

    BUT we are having a problem finding and understanding the conflicting info on Ca\Mg ratios and more importantly, if they need to be served together or separately.

    Does feeding Calcium ( citrate ) and Magnesium ( citrate ) together prevent the absorption and their needed metabolism to strengthen bones and counteract other MBD issues?

    Is it better to feed Magnesium at different times than the calcium rich meal ?

    Is Magnesium Citrate at a different time, better and easier on than just serving Almonds which are one of the highest sources of elemental Magnesium ?
    And if almonds are better, are we speaking of dry roasted, or raw almonds ( regarding Oxalates )

    What about Vitamin K2 ? She is eating plenty of Romaine lettuce. But if she needs K2 to more efficiently process the Calcium - how much and how should it be sourced ?

    Here is more of her history that I included in a post a few months ago.


    She gets plenty of Sunshine.... and some days can be very active.

    Yet I see a definite relationship between her balance, a day after a bit more calcium, and a day after she has had less.

    Since my last post on my squirrel.. I have been doing a lot of diet testing, and have documented her response to each.
    Yet this magnesium issue, and finding a balance that she feels good about and can continue to improve with, is frustrating.

    Adding a bit more magnesium citrate to her food, results in soft poops and I get the impression she doesn't feel as well.

    Serving her a few raw almonds separately, along with HHBs, lettuce, mushrooms, and rodent nuggets
    (which she was brought up on and actually likes), leads her to consume less of my special calcium rich mix,
    and then she is less balanced the next day.

    So I am wondering if I should abandon the Magnesium Citrate, totally in the Calcium mix I feed her, and just rely on the almonds.
    OR if I should abandon the almonds totally and need to make a separate magnesium mix to be eaten at different times

    Generally she eats about 4-5 times a day, in varying amounts, depending on how her day starts.


    Here is the background on my squirrel from a link I posted a few months ago.
    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...55#post1366855
    Hi BN:
    Thanks for mentioning the concept of Calcium to Magnesium ratio and of course, for your post in general. Nutrition is a particular interest to me and I have some comments and suggestions that I will based upon some of my research and even admittedly; plain old contemplation! I feel I always need to preface my posts with my limited time at work so here that is again; but I will get back here as soon as I am able. Others, of course will be able to make their thoughts and opinions available to you as well! Just two questions; how much Calcium, Phosphorus and Magnesium are you giving in your Squirrel (are you using specific amounts daily or are you figuring a certain percentage of each per unit volume of food that you make and incorporated these constituents within it) and what is your Squirrel's name? I believe I posted some to you on that thread you linked to but I apologized for not recalling your Squirrel's name!
    Regards,
    SamtheSquirrel

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    Sam - you probably are working too much! I appreciate any new insights you may have.
    MySquirrel has a great name, but I am trying to be discreet - so she doesn't worry that I am unsure over her treatment - you know!


    I am keeping a very detailed digital diary, on my phone, along with photos of her and all foodstuffs, which I will post eventually.

    I feed her three types of foods"
    Regular foods that would be part of a healthy diet - ie: Lettuce, Mushrooms, HHBs, HT 2018 Rodent Nuggets she has been eating since a babe.
    A mix that I make based on weight, to be able to deliver enough EXTRA elemental calcium to total around 200mg for the day - this involves, considering the mix's native CaPh contents, and the number of nibbles she will be taking.
    In order that she actually consume enough, I find that when she likes a mix, I need to have about a DOZEN helpings of it, scattered about her varying eating/sleeping/lounging/foraging places in the house. PLUS, I find that by
    my frequent physically reminding her - presenting - offering her that mix as much as possible, she simply will choose to eat more of it! You cannot just give her one helping in one place and expect that she will just eat as much as you calculated she needs to - VERY IMPORTANT POINT I think many miss.

    A second customized mix, which is meant to look, feel and taste slightly different, both for variety and also so I can vary the Magnesium she consumes. I find that magnesium gives her soft stools. And not sure she feels well at times from magnesium. ALSO I mix in some Pine Bark and some Pre-Pro Biotics.

    I had experimented with D-Mannose and with Magnesium L-Threonate but right now, they are on the distant shelf of tried/failed ingredients. Because she didn't like them. The Threonate brings the MG down to such a ridiculously low percentage, it is not a realistic plan.

    Today, I started adding to the HHB and Nuggets, a drop of K2 - not sure if that is good hope someone here can give me meaningful references on K2.


    The reason for this post as I said, is due to all the confusing and conflicting information on the Magnesium needed for Calcium absorption in rodents and also any need to serve it separately from the calcium a few hours earlier or later.
    As well as using Almonds, as an alternate or additional source of Magnesium.

    Everyone talks about calcium supplements in MBD cases as if a pinch of it or some sprinkles can make a difference.
    That is unrealistic!

    Calcium Carbonate is vile. Citrate is only 1/5th calcium, so you need five times as much by weight. That cannot easily be buried. I have come up with a mix recipe that MySquirrel actually loves.
    And seeing her thrive on it, is very rewarding and educational. I am trying to refine the process though.. So I need further insights into the above.

    BTW, she has always been 570 grams at her heaviest. In November she was down to 470 grams...and was dragging her rear legs and could not sit up. NOW She is 575 grams, and is fully walking and running.
    She ran about ten blocks each of several days a few weeks ago. But then came down with her second UTI this year, which I think she may only have once before. She is now fully recovered from that after Antibiotics, and back up to 575.
    HOWEVER, I want to be sure that her UTIs are not caused by this calcium / magnesium dosing..

    ALTERNATELY, I am considering NOT taking her out walking ( harnessed ) - she is super trained, not to walk on private lawns or to climb trees, or go under hedges. HOWEVER she loves rolling in open patches of soil in parks and playgrounds I take her too, and I am wondering if THAT may be where she is getting the UTIs.

    Sorry for this long post.. I hope it will help get some needed missing info...

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    I'm also interested in the K2 as well as the cal/ mag.
    I'm never sure 🤷
    When you said she ran 10 blocks I'm like 🤔 it's so amazing you walk her on a harness that is so cool 😁
    Charley Chuckles gone from my arms FOREVER in my heart 8/14/04-3/7/13
    Simon, our time was too short together, but you gave us so much love, be with CC now 3/7/14


    The "CHARLEY CHUCKLES MEMORIAL RAIL TOUR" leaves the station choo chooo
    *Deland,FL. *Washington DC *Boston (Back Bay) *Boston (North Station) *Wells,Maine *Albany,NY *New York (Penn Station) *Back to Deland FL. "July 1- July 22" 2013

    http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...RIAL-RAIL-TOUR Check it out here
    http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...OW-A-NEW-MOMMY!!!!!
    http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...RAINBOW-BRIDGE
    http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...e-called-Simon
    charleychuckles1@gmail.com

    I'm not poof reading any of this

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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charley Chuckles View Post
    I'm also interested in the K2 as well as the cal/ mag.
    I'm never sure 🤷
    When you said she ran 10 blocks I'm like 🤔 it's so amazing you walk her on a harness that is so cool 😁

    Hello old friend! I remember years ago, I wrote that harnesses were very dangerous... True that! You must repeatedly test and train them.
    And train yourself, to NEVER pull on the harness from back to front. Or even sides. You have to do a lot in your home.... Months of training.
    So that she is comfortable and forgets about getting out, and also WANTS to be in the harness.
    And then take her out a few minutes at a time.

    I have a pre-release cage, so she was able to spend a lot of time outdoors hearing cars and wind and noise.
    With the right training, and snugging up the harness right, and always checking it, and also training her to instantly stop when she hears "NO"

    We been walking for many years now.
    And when she gets scared, or just wants to ride, she runs up to my shoulder, or under my shirt, where she can hide for an hour, sometimes peeking out to see where we are.
    She always knows when we are getting home.
    And she has gotten cool about being in the car. She enjoys sitting on the dash or seat top.

    But I don't know what will happen when I run out of harnesses. The company I think is out of business recently or stopped making them.

    BACK TO THE VITAMIN AND MINERAL QUESTIONS NOW PLEASE!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    Gary you really are awesome 😁
    Miss you ❤️
    Charley Chuckles gone from my arms FOREVER in my heart 8/14/04-3/7/13
    Simon, our time was too short together, but you gave us so much love, be with CC now 3/7/14


    The "CHARLEY CHUCKLES MEMORIAL RAIL TOUR" leaves the station choo chooo
    *Deland,FL. *Washington DC *Boston (Back Bay) *Boston (North Station) *Wells,Maine *Albany,NY *New York (Penn Station) *Back to Deland FL. "July 1- July 22" 2013

    http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...RIAL-RAIL-TOUR Check it out here
    http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...OW-A-NEW-MOMMY!!!!!
    http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...RAINBOW-BRIDGE
    http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...e-called-Simon
    charleychuckles1@gmail.com

    I'm not poof reading any of this

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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    SO- IS K2 needed in treating MBD?

    Should Magnesium be fed at different times as the bulk of the calcium additive?

    Are RAW Almonds a net positive as a Magnesium source - better than Magnesium Citrate?

    Should they be served on their own, not with the Calcium Mix?

    MySquirrel wishes I would know already! ( You can tell by seeing how she is looking at me!!! )



    Quote Originally Posted by BigNibbler View Post
    Sam - you probably are working too much! I appreciate any new insights you may have.
    MySquirrel has a great name, but I am trying to be discreet - so she doesn't worry that I am unsure over her treatment - you know!


    I am keeping a very detailed digital diary, on my phone, along with photos of her and all foodstuffs, which I will post eventually.

    I feed her three types of foods"
    Regular foods that would be part of a healthy diet - ie: Lettuce, Mushrooms, HHBs, HT 2018 Rodent Nuggets she has been eating since a babe.
    A mix that I make based on weight, to be able to deliver enough EXTRA elemental calcium to total around 200mg for the day - this involves, considering the mix's native CaPh contents, and the number of nibbles she will be taking.
    In order that she actually consume enough, I find that when she likes a mix, I need to have about a DOZEN helpings of it, scattered about her varying eating/sleeping/lounging/foraging places in the house. PLUS, I find that by
    my frequent physically reminding her - presenting - offering her that mix as much as possible, she simply will choose to eat more of it! You cannot just give her one helping in one place and expect that she will just eat as much as you calculated she needs to - VERY IMPORTANT POINT I think many miss.

    A second customized mix, which is meant to look, feel and taste slightly different, both for variety and also so I can vary the Magnesium she consumes. I find that magnesium gives her soft stools. And not sure she feels well at times from magnesium. ALSO I mix in some Pine Bark and some Pre-Pro Biotics.

    I had experimented with D-Mannose and with Magnesium L-Threonate but right now, they are on the distant shelf of tried/failed ingredients. Because she didn't like them. The Threonate brings the MG down to such a ridiculously low percentage, it is not a realistic plan.

    Today, I started adding to the HHB and Nuggets, a drop of K2 - not sure if that is good hope someone here can give me meaningful references on K2.


    The reason for this post as I said, is due to all the confusing and conflicting information on the Magnesium needed for Calcium absorption in rodents and also any need to serve it separately from the calcium a few hours earlier or later.
    As well as using Almonds, as an alternate or additional source of Magnesium.

    Everyone talks about calcium supplements in MBD cases as if a pinch of it or some sprinkles can make a difference.
    That is unrealistic!

    Calcium Carbonate is vile. Citrate is only 1/5th calcium, so you need five times as much by weight. That cannot easily be buried. I have come up with a mix recipe that MySquirrel actually loves.
    And seeing her thrive on it, is very rewarding and educational. I am trying to refine the process though.. So I need further insights into the above.

    BTW, she has always been 570 grams at her heaviest. In November she was down to 470 grams...and was dragging her rear legs and could not sit up. NOW She is 575 grams, and is fully walking and running.
    She ran about ten blocks each of several days a few weeks ago. But then came down with her second UTI this year, which I think she may only have once before. She is now fully recovered from that after Antibiotics, and back up to 575.
    HOWEVER, I want to be sure that her UTIs are not caused by this calcium / magnesium dosing..

    ALTERNATELY, I am considering NOT taking her out walking ( harnessed ) - she is super trained, not to walk on private lawns or to climb trees, or go under hedges. HOWEVER she loves rolling in open patches of soil in parks and playgrounds I take her too, and I am wondering if THAT may be where she is getting the UTIs.

    Sorry for this long post.. I hope it will help get some needed missing info...

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigNibbler View Post
    SO- IS K2 needed in treating MBD?

    Should Magnesium be fed at different times as the bulk of the calcium additive?

    Are RAW Almonds a net positive as a Magnesium source - better than Magnesium Citrate?

    Should they be served on their own, not with the Calcium Mix?

    MySquirrel wishes I would know already! ( You can tell by seeing how she is looking at me!!! )
    Hi BN:
    I just have one of my short moments while working and just to provide a quick answer to the Vitamin K2 question just in case you have a glob of K2 poised above your Squirrel; NO it is NOT required for ensuring resolution of MBD. It MAY be of some benefit but it is NOT essential by any stretch of the imagination! Some studies suggest that Vitamin K2 may ad benefit to treatment of Osteoporosis in humans (bone loss of a certain degree that meets diagnostic criteria usually with bone density testing). Calcium and adequate (but not excessive) Vitamin D should be the mainstay! Interestingly, HHB contain K1 but Teklad and Mazuri and other extruded blocks contain K3 which is banned for human use but has been shown to be "safe" for certain animal feeds.
    More later, when I return home. I have Friday free!!!!!!
    Regards,
    SamtheSquirrel

  9. Serious fuzzy thank you's to SamtheSquirrel2018 from:

    Charley Chuckles (06-27-2024)

  10. #9
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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    Sam, Hearing that - MySquirrel is so excited about Friday!

    Meanwhile, I am more confused on three fronts - you wrote: NO it is NOT required for ensuring resolution of MBD. It MAY be of some benefit but it is NOT essential by any stretch of the imagination! Some studies suggest that Vitamin K2 may add benefit to treatment of Osteoporosis in humans (bone loss of a certain degree that meets diagnostic criteria usually with bone density testing). Calcium and adequate (but not excessive) Vitamin D should be the mainstay!

    1]If it is of SOME benefit - wouldn't that mean that I should ATTEMPT to include it?

    2]Vitamin D, not D3 : But how much MORE - as it is in HHB - What is ADEQUATE supplement of Vit D ?

    3]Would that amount of Vit D vary from summer to winter and based on how much natural sunlight she gets being outdoors, looking out open window (hardware cloth not glass), out in release cage, Outside with me?

    I always check the UV strength, and try to find the right balance of some measurable UV (2-3 generally), vs strong heating sun.


    BTW - I certainly know that MySquirrel won't be around that much longer.... I mean she is a senior. I am NOT obsessed at all with keeping her alive.
    One of the first things I did years ago, was build a euthanasia chamber so that if anything happened, they would not suffer.

    HOWEVER, I think that this is an opportunity to practice and perfect MBD treatment so that any future victims of this condition - anywhere - could benefit from MySquirrel's experience.

    IT is an opportunity!

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    Default Re: Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

    Suggest exchanging the Magnesium Citrate with Magnesium L threonate; it is a highly absorbable form that is easier on the bowel. "Double Wood" brand capsules contain 36 mg. elemental magnesium each. Split feed adding half of a capsule powder each to the AM and PM meals respectively. Be aware that when adding magnesium to the diet that it may take a few days for the bowel to adjust. If then loose stool persists, then lower the amount of the supplement by a fraction that is about 1/64 Tsp. lower to see if the stool firms up in a couple of days. Adding the powder to a wet food source will be needed. Organic low fat unsweetened yogurt to which organic food grade Chia oil can be added to it to improve the aroma and taste appeal. If your squirrel is underweight then go with the full fat.

    https://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Thr...9509430&sr=8-1


    Also, probiotics with prebiotics, (Pet Flora by Vitality Science. Both sources are available on Amazon.com.

    https://www.amazon.com/Vitality-Scie...s%2C143&sr=8-1

    This is an article on elderly rats. Though the diet differs from that of an arboreal rodent vs. a ground rodent; there is much that is the same in regards to preserving both kidney and bone health that are directly related. (See my thread on Kidney Disease in the Specific Ailments Forum under sub heading, " Other" for more on what can be done to support an older squirrel to extend the function of the kidneys, IF the squirrel hasn't yet reached End Stage Kidney Disease.

    Below are some quotes on key issues in regard to the diet of elderly rats, that are the same for tree squirrels. These same protocols were used to support another's member Southern ssp. of E. Gray squirrel over a number of years. The squirrel lived to reach 11 years of age. Northern Gray squirrels and Fox Squirrels have been found to have reached a considerable higher age of longevity, even so not many have been known to do so. In the West there have been reported at least three squirrels. Again, this isn't to say that most squirrels will reach this age.

    AA the below article relates that to extend the lifespan, a lowering of protein needs to be started prior to nearing old age. Even so, there have been members that have put into place these same protocols, that have lived to reach 15 of age and older, one of which care by Duckman a male E. gray that reached 18. was told by a person at Home Depot of a first time caregiver whose albino E. gray (northern ssp.) lived to 17 of age. A Belong the basic diet, the common aspect that these squirrels that had a greater longevity had in common was that all of their diets included wild harvested foods which their species are known to consume in their wild habitats.

    http://www.isamurats.co.uk/feeding-f...t%20rat%20diet.

    Protein should be around the 12%, this is at the low end of the typical range of protein (12-14%) content for an adult rat diet. Low protein helps reduce the amount of work the kidneys have to do and so keeps them going for longer.
    Supplement with Omega oils regularly
    Be careful with the amount of dark green leafy veg you offer. Whilst it is very good for rats, in older age it can add extra load onto the kidneys. It is still worth feeding some, but keep this to less than you would give an adult.
    Don’t feed too much, one of the single biggest things you can do for an older rat to help protect it is to keep it from becoming overweight. A little extra weight is a good thing in old age (as it can act as a buffer for illnesses that come up), however your rats shouldn’t be massively pear shaped or spread into an omelette when lying down. Aim for a rat with a nice covering of muscle and some fat but still a nice tubular shape. Weight impacts on most old age conditions, it puts extra strain on the heart, the kidneys, the physical structure and joints and increases likelihood of tumors and other lumps and even cysts and abscesses.

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