Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

[BigNibbler]

My 12 year old squirrel is improving her strength, weight, balance, and activity, since my diet experiments to feed more calcium that she would eat.

BUT we are having a problem finding and understanding the conflicting info on Ca\Mg ratios and more importantly, if they need to be served together or separately.

Does feeding Calcium ( citrate ) and Magnesium ( citrate ) together prevent the absorption and their needed metabolism to strengthen bones and counteract other MBD issues?

Is it better to feed Magnesium at different times than the calcium rich meal ?

Is Magnesium Citrate at a different time, better and easier on than just serving Almonds which are one of the highest sources of elemental Magnesium ?
And if almonds are better, are we speaking of dry roasted, or raw almonds ( regarding Oxalates )

What about Vitamin K2 ? She is eating plenty of Romaine lettuce. But if she needs K2 to more efficiently process the Calcium - how much and how should it be sourced ?

Here is more of her history that I included in a post a few months ago.


She gets plenty of Sunshine.... and some days can be very active.

Yet I see a definite relationship between her balance, a day after a bit more calcium, and a day after she has had less.

Since my last post on my squirrel.. I have been doing a lot of diet testing, and have documented her response to each.
Yet this magnesium issue, and finding a balance that she feels good about and can continue to improve with, is frustrating.

Adding a bit more magnesium citrate to her food, results in soft poops and I get the impression she doesn't feel as well.

Serving her a few raw almonds separately, along with HHBs, lettuce, mushrooms, and rodent nuggets
(which she was brought up on and actually likes), leads her to consume less of my special calcium rich mix,
and then she is less balanced the next day.

So I am wondering if I should abandon the Magnesium Citrate, totally in the Calcium mix I feed her, and just rely on the almonds.
OR if I should abandon the almonds totally and need to make a separate magnesium mix to be eaten at different times

Generally she eats about 4-5 times a day, in varying amounts, depending on how her day starts.


Here is the background on my squirrel from a link I posted a few months ago.
https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...55#post1366855

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

My 12 year old squirrel is improving her strength, weight, balance, and activity, since my diet experiments to feed more calcium that she would eat.

BUT we are having a problem finding and understanding the conflicting info on Ca\Mg ratios and more importantly, if they need to be served together or separately.

Does feeding Calcium ( citrate ) and Magnesium ( citrate ) together prevent the absorption and their needed metabolism to strengthen bones and counteract other MBD issues?

Is it better to feed Magnesium at different times than the calcium rich meal ?

Is Magnesium Citrate at a different time, better and easier on than just serving Almonds which are one of the highest sources of elemental Magnesium ?
And if almonds are better, are we speaking of dry roasted, or raw almonds ( regarding Oxalates )

What about Vitamin K2 ? She is eating plenty of Romaine lettuce. But if she needs K2 to more efficiently process the Calcium - how much and how should it be sourced ?

Here is more of her history that I included in a post a few months ago.


She gets plenty of Sunshine.... and some days can be very active.

Yet I see a definite relationship between her balance, a day after a bit more calcium, and a day after she has had less.

Since my last post on my squirrel.. I have been doing a lot of diet testing, and have documented her response to each.
Yet this magnesium issue, and finding a balance that she feels good about and can continue to improve with, is frustrating.

Adding a bit more magnesium citrate to her food, results in soft poops and I get the impression she doesn't feel as well.

Serving her a few raw almonds separately, along with HHBs, lettuce, mushrooms, and rodent nuggets
(which she was brought up on and actually likes), leads her to consume less of my special calcium rich mix,
and then she is less balanced the next day.

So I am wondering if I should abandon the Magnesium Citrate, totally in the Calcium mix I feed her, and just rely on the almonds.
OR if I should abandon the almonds totally and need to make a separate magnesium mix to be eaten at different times

Generally she eats about 4-5 times a day, in varying amounts, depending on how her day starts.


Here is the background on my squirrel from a link I posted a few months ago.
https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...55#post1366855

Hi BN:
Thanks for mentioning the concept of Calcium to Magnesium ratio and of course, for your post in general. Nutrition is a particular interest to me and I have some comments and suggestions that I will based upon some of my research and even admittedly; plain old contemplation! I feel I always need to preface my posts with my limited time at work so here that is again; but I will get back here as soon as I am able. Others, of course will be able to make their thoughts and opinions available to you as well! Just two questions; how much Calcium, Phosphorus and Magnesium are you giving in your Squirrel (are you using specific amounts daily or are you figuring a certain percentage of each per unit volume of food that you make and incorporated these constituents within it) and what is your Squirrel's name? I believe I posted some to you on that thread you linked to but I apologized for not recalling your Squirrel's name!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[BigNibbler]

Sam - you probably are working too much! I appreciate any new insights you may have.
MySquirrel has a great name, but I am trying to be discreet - so she doesn't worry that I am unsure over her treatment - you know!


I am keeping a very detailed digital diary, on my phone, along with photos of her and all foodstuffs, which I will post eventually.

I feed her three types of foods"
Regular foods that would be part of a healthy diet - ie: Lettuce, Mushrooms, HHBs, HT 2018 Rodent Nuggets she has been eating since a babe.
A mix that I make based on weight, to be able to deliver enough EXTRA elemental calcium to total around 200mg for the day - this involves, considering the mix's native CaPh contents, and the number of nibbles she will be taking.
In order that she actually consume enough, I find that when she likes a mix, I need to have about a DOZEN helpings of it, scattered about her varying eating/sleeping/lounging/foraging places in the house. PLUS, I find that by
my frequent physically reminding her - presenting - offering her that mix as much as possible, she simply will choose to eat more of it! You cannot just give her one helping in one place and expect that she will just eat as much as you calculated she needs to - VERY IMPORTANT POINT I think many miss.

A second customized mix, which is meant to look, feel and taste slightly different, both for variety and also so I can vary the Magnesium she consumes. I find that magnesium gives her soft stools. And not sure she feels well at times from magnesium. ALSO I mix in some Pine Bark and some Pre-Pro Biotics.

I had experimented with D-Mannose and with Magnesium L-Threonate but right now, they are on the distant shelf of tried/failed ingredients. Because she didn't like them. The Threonate brings the MG down to such a ridiculously low percentage, it is not a realistic plan.

Today, I started adding to the HHB and Nuggets, a drop of K2 - not sure if that is good hope someone here can give me meaningful references on K2.


The reason for this post as I said, is due to all the confusing and conflicting information on the Magnesium needed for Calcium absorption in rodents and also any need to serve it separately from the calcium a few hours earlier or later.
As well as using Almonds, as an alternate or additional source of Magnesium.

Everyone talks about calcium supplements in MBD cases as if a pinch of it or some sprinkles can make a difference.
That is unrealistic!

Calcium Carbonate is vile. Citrate is only 1/5th calcium, so you need five times as much by weight. That cannot easily be buried. I have come up with a mix recipe that MySquirrel actually loves.
And seeing her thrive on it, is very rewarding and educational. I am trying to refine the process though.. So I need further insights into the above.

BTW, she has always been 570 grams at her heaviest. In November she was down to 470 grams...and was dragging her rear legs and could not sit up. NOW She is 575 grams, and is fully walking and running.
She ran about ten blocks each of several days a few weeks ago. But then came down with her second UTI this year, which I think she may only have once before. She is now fully recovered from that after Antibiotics, and back up to 575.
HOWEVER, I want to be sure that her UTIs are not caused by this calcium / magnesium dosing..

ALTERNATELY, I am considering NOT taking her out walking ( harnessed ) - she is super trained, not to walk on private lawns or to climb trees, or go under hedges. HOWEVER she loves rolling in open patches of soil in parks and playgrounds I take her too, and I am wondering if THAT may be where she is getting the UTIs.

Sorry for this long post.. I hope it will help get some needed missing info...

[Charley Chuckles]

I'm also interested in the K2 as well as the cal/ mag.
I'm never sure 🤷
When you said she ran 10 blocks I'm like 🤔 it's so amazing you walk her on a harness that is so cool 😁

[BigNibbler]

I'm also interested in the K2 as well as the cal/ mag.
I'm never sure 🤷
When you said she ran 10 blocks I'm like 🤔 it's so amazing you walk her on a harness that is so cool 😁

Hello old friend! I remember years ago, I wrote that harnesses were very dangerous... True that! You must repeatedly test and train them.
And train yourself, to NEVER pull on the harness from back to front. Or even sides. You have to do a lot in your home.... Months of training.
So that she is comfortable and forgets about getting out, and also WANTS to be in the harness.
And then take her out a few minutes at a time.

I have a pre-release cage, so she was able to spend a lot of time outdoors hearing cars and wind and noise.
With the right training, and snugging up the harness right, and always checking it, and also training her to instantly stop when she hears "NO"

We been walking for many years now.
And when she gets scared, or just wants to ride, she runs up to my shoulder, or under my shirt, where she can hide for an hour, sometimes peeking out to see where we are.
She always knows when we are getting home.
And she has gotten cool about being in the car. She enjoys sitting on the dash or seat top.

But I don't know what will happen when I run out of harnesses. The company I think is out of business recently or stopped making them.

BACK TO THE VITAMIN AND MINERAL QUESTIONS NOW PLEASE!

[Charley Chuckles]

Gary you really are awesome 😁
Miss you ❤️

[BigNibbler]

SO- IS K2 needed in treating MBD?

Should Magnesium be fed at different times as the bulk of the calcium additive?

Are RAW Almonds a net positive as a Magnesium source - better than Magnesium Citrate?

Should they be served on their own, not with the Calcium Mix?

MySquirrel wishes I would know already! ( You can tell by seeing how she is looking at me!!! )

Sam - you probably are working too much! I appreciate any new insights you may have.
MySquirrel has a great name, but I am trying to be discreet - so she doesn't worry that I am unsure over her treatment - you know!


I am keeping a very detailed digital diary, on my phone, along with photos of her and all foodstuffs, which I will post eventually.

I feed her three types of foods"
Regular foods that would be part of a healthy diet - ie: Lettuce, Mushrooms, HHBs, HT 2018 Rodent Nuggets she has been eating since a babe.
A mix that I make based on weight, to be able to deliver enough EXTRA elemental calcium to total around 200mg for the day - this involves, considering the mix's native CaPh contents, and the number of nibbles she will be taking.
In order that she actually consume enough, I find that when she likes a mix, I need to have about a DOZEN helpings of it, scattered about her varying eating/sleeping/lounging/foraging places in the house. PLUS, I find that by
my frequent physically reminding her - presenting - offering her that mix as much as possible, she simply will choose to eat more of it! You cannot just give her one helping in one place and expect that she will just eat as much as you calculated she needs to - VERY IMPORTANT POINT I think many miss.

A second customized mix, which is meant to look, feel and taste slightly different, both for variety and also so I can vary the Magnesium she consumes. I find that magnesium gives her soft stools. And not sure she feels well at times from magnesium. ALSO I mix in some Pine Bark and some Pre-Pro Biotics.

I had experimented with D-Mannose and with Magnesium L-Threonate but right now, they are on the distant shelf of tried/failed ingredients. Because she didn't like them. The Threonate brings the MG down to such a ridiculously low percentage, it is not a realistic plan.

Today, I started adding to the HHB and Nuggets, a drop of K2 - not sure if that is good hope someone here can give me meaningful references on K2.


The reason for this post as I said, is due to all the confusing and conflicting information on the Magnesium needed for Calcium absorption in rodents and also any need to serve it separately from the calcium a few hours earlier or later.
As well as using Almonds, as an alternate or additional source of Magnesium.

Everyone talks about calcium supplements in MBD cases as if a pinch of it or some sprinkles can make a difference.
That is unrealistic!

Calcium Carbonate is vile. Citrate is only 1/5th calcium, so you need five times as much by weight. That cannot easily be buried. I have come up with a mix recipe that MySquirrel actually loves.
And seeing her thrive on it, is very rewarding and educational. I am trying to refine the process though.. So I need further insights into the above.

BTW, she has always been 570 grams at her heaviest. In November she was down to 470 grams...and was dragging her rear legs and could not sit up. NOW She is 575 grams, and is fully walking and running.
She ran about ten blocks each of several days a few weeks ago. But then came down with her second UTI this year, which I think she may only have once before. She is now fully recovered from that after Antibiotics, and back up to 575.
HOWEVER, I want to be sure that her UTIs are not caused by this calcium / magnesium dosing..

ALTERNATELY, I am considering NOT taking her out walking ( harnessed ) - she is super trained, not to walk on private lawns or to climb trees, or go under hedges. HOWEVER she loves rolling in open patches of soil in parks and playgrounds I take her too, and I am wondering if THAT may be where she is getting the UTIs.

Sorry for this long post.. I hope it will help get some needed missing info...

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

SO- IS K2 needed in treating MBD?

Should Magnesium be fed at different times as the bulk of the calcium additive?

Are RAW Almonds a net positive as a Magnesium source - better than Magnesium Citrate?

Should they be served on their own, not with the Calcium Mix?

MySquirrel wishes I would know already! ( You can tell by seeing how she is looking at me!!! )

Hi BN:
I just have one of my short moments while working and just to provide a quick answer to the Vitamin K2 question just in case you have a glob of K2 poised above your Squirrel; NO it is NOT required for ensuring resolution of MBD. It MAY be of some benefit but it is NOT essential by any stretch of the imagination! Some studies suggest that Vitamin K2 may ad benefit to treatment of Osteoporosis in humans (bone loss of a certain degree that meets diagnostic criteria usually with bone density testing). Calcium and adequate (but not excessive) Vitamin D should be the mainstay! Interestingly, HHB contain K1 but Teklad and Mazuri and other extruded blocks contain K3 which is banned for human use but has been shown to be "safe" for certain animal feeds.
More later, when I return home. I have Friday free!!!!!!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[BigNibbler]

Sam, Hearing that - MySquirrel is so excited about Friday!

Meanwhile, I am more confused on three fronts - you wrote: NO it is NOT required for ensuring resolution of MBD. It MAY be of some benefit but it is NOT essential by any stretch of the imagination! Some studies suggest that Vitamin K2 may add benefit to treatment of Osteoporosis in humans (bone loss of a certain degree that meets diagnostic criteria usually with bone density testing). Calcium and adequate (but not excessive) Vitamin D should be the mainstay!

1]If it is of SOME benefit - wouldn't that mean that I should ATTEMPT to include it?

2]Vitamin D, not D3 : But how much MORE - as it is in HHB - What is ADEQUATE supplement of Vit D ?

3]Would that amount of Vit D vary from summer to winter and based on how much natural sunlight she gets being outdoors, looking out open window (hardware cloth not glass), out in release cage, Outside with me?

I always check the UV strength, and try to find the right balance of some measurable UV (2-3 generally), vs strong heating sun.


BTW - I certainly know that MySquirrel won't be around that much longer.... I mean she is a senior. I am NOT obsessed at all with keeping her alive.
One of the first things I did years ago, was build a euthanasia chamber so that if anything happened, they would not suffer.

HOWEVER, I think that this is an opportunity to practice and perfect MBD treatment so that any future victims of this condition - anywhere - could benefit from MySquirrel's experience.

IT is an opportunity!

[Diggie's Friend]

Suggest exchanging the Magnesium Citrate with Magnesium L threonate; it is a highly absorbable form that is easier on the bowel. "Double Wood" brand capsules contain 36 mg. elemental magnesium each. Split feed adding half of a capsule powder each to the AM and PM meals respectively. Be aware that when adding magnesium to the diet that it may take a few days for the bowel to adjust. If then loose stool persists, then lower the amount of the supplement by a fraction that is about 1/64 Tsp. lower to see if the stool firms up in a couple of days. Adding the powder to a wet food source will be needed. Organic low fat unsweetened yogurt to which organic food grade Chia oil can be added to it to improve the aroma and taste appeal. If your squirrel is underweight then go with the full fat.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Thr...9509430&sr=8-1


Also, probiotics with prebiotics, (Pet Flora by Vitality Science. Both sources are available on Amazon.com.

https://www.amazon.com/Vitality-Scie...s%2C143&sr=8-1

This is an article on elderly rats. Though the diet differs from that of an arboreal rodent vs. a ground rodent; there is much that is the same in regards to preserving both kidney and bone health that are directly related. (See my thread on Kidney Disease in the Specific Ailments Forum under sub heading, " Other" for more on what can be done to support an older squirrel to extend the function of the kidneys, IF the squirrel hasn't yet reached End Stage Kidney Disease.

Below are some quotes on key issues in regard to the diet of elderly rats, that are the same for tree squirrels. These same protocols were used to support another's member Southern ssp. of E. Gray squirrel over a number of years. The squirrel lived to reach 11 years of age. Northern Gray squirrels and Fox Squirrels have been found to have reached a considerable higher age of longevity, even so not many have been known to do so. In the West there have been reported at least three squirrels. Again, this isn't to say that most squirrels will reach this age.

AA the below article relates that to extend the lifespan, a lowering of protein needs to be started prior to nearing old age. Even so, there have been members that have put into place these same protocols, that have lived to reach 15 of age and older, one of which care by Duckman a male E. gray that reached 18. was told by a person at Home Depot of a first time caregiver whose albino E. gray (northern ssp.) lived to 17 of age. A Belong the basic diet, the common aspect that these squirrels that had a greater longevity had in common was that all of their diets included wild harvested foods which their species are known to consume in their wild habitats.

http://www.isamurats.co.uk/feeding-f...t%20rat%20diet.

Protein should be around the 12%, this is at the low end of the typical range of protein (12-14%) content for an adult rat diet. Low protein helps reduce the amount of work the kidneys have to do and so keeps them going for longer.

Supplement with Omega oils regularly

Be careful with the amount of dark green leafy veg you offer. Whilst it is very good for rats, in older age it can add extra load onto the kidneys. It is still worth feeding some, but keep this to less than you would give an adult.

Don’t feed too much, one of the single biggest things you can do for an older rat to help protect it is to keep it from becoming overweight. A little extra weight is a good thing in old age (as it can act as a buffer for illnesses that come up), however your rats shouldn’t be massively pear shaped or spread into an omelette when lying down. Aim for a rat with a nice covering of muscle and some fat but still a nice tubular shape. Weight impacts on most old age conditions, it puts extra strain on the heart, the kidneys, the physical structure and joints and increases likelihood of tumors and other lumps and even cysts and abscesses.

[BigNibbler]

Diggie, I tried that. At 7% elemental Magnesium, the sheer mass required is ridiculous. I can try it again, but at that time, she refuse to eat anything with it.

Does it need to be served separately from the Calcium ?

[Diggie's Friend]

I didn't advise to add 7 percent magnesium, but to include 36 mg. of elemental magnesium to a current rodent block diet. Also, to reduce the block diet by a portion of one quarter to a third in volume, and adding Calcium citrate powder in a minimum of the same amount the calcium is lowered by the block reduction. This is what takes pressure off old kidneys. (36 mg.) elemental calcium in one capsule of Double Wood Magnesium L. threonate, split fed daily with meals; not fed separately from the block, which that contains most of the calcium and protein in the diet.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Sam, Hearing that - MySquirrel is so excited about Friday!

Meanwhile, I am more confused on three fronts - you wrote: NO it is NOT required for ensuring resolution of MBD. It MAY be of some benefit but it is NOT essential by any stretch of the imagination! Some studies suggest that Vitamin K2 may add benefit to treatment of Osteoporosis in humans (bone loss of a certain degree that meets diagnostic criteria usually with bone density testing). Calcium and adequate (but not excessive) Vitamin D should be the mainstay!

Hi BN:
It's my rare free day! I'll provide my commentary after each of your questions. As I always try to do, here is my disclaimer for my posts today on MySquirrel's thread; I am no a Veterinarian nor am I a nutritionist but I am a scientist (of sorts).

1]If it is of SOME benefit - wouldn't that mean that I should ATTEMPT to include it?

Answer: First of all, BN, you left out an important word from my statement and that is "may" ("It MAY be of some benefit")! But as a realist and a scientist, if we have a very effective treatment for a condition as we do for MBD, my question back to you would be just because something MIGHT offer some benefit, is this potential benefit something that is likely to actually occur AND be of significant observable or measurable positive impact the outcome or condition along the way OR this usage just an attempt to obtain some general all-out maximal benefit from therapy which if this is the case, you might as well throw in everything that "may" be of benefit as well! One of the common statements to illustrate caution in tweaking things is "don't try to fix something that isn't broken!"

From a scientific standpoint, doing true research on MBD therapies in Squirrels is going to be very difficult for many reasons but one in particular is that a study would be necessary where the methodology and goals would be defined and that there would be enough Squirrels with similar degrees of MBD; some to be given the "old" therapy and some to be given the "new" therapy (with the added ingredients, lets say) and then some accurate way to objectively measure any differences and then determine if these are statistically significant if they exist at all! One guiding principle I follow when "concocting remedies" is that IF there is no statistically significant benefit to a constituent's use, then there are only potential risks to its use. Also, some things are safe or even beneficial when utilized alone but when used with other substances, there can be interactions or even changes in the expected benefits of the original medication by the presence of the new substance!

2]Vitamin D, not D3 : But how much MORE - as it is in HHB - What is ADEQUATE supplement of Vit D ?

Answer: Henry's utilizes the only detailed Nutritional guide that is available to form the basis for much of their HHB recipe and the constituents of their vitamin mixture. This is the; Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals (NROLA),: Fourth Revised Edition, 1995; and there is no Squirrel chapter; the closest information for Squirrels is their close relative, the Rat! Henry's provides 54 IU of Vitamin D3 in two Blocks. This is ALL the Vitamin D an average Squirrel would need in one day and really is a little more (again based upon the NROLA). MySquirrel or any captive Squirrel who is consuming two or three HHB or an 80% quality Block diet does NOT require any direct sunlight or special artificial lighting and will derive all necessary Vitamin D from their Blocks! I'm not suggesting this for our Squirrels but to illustrate this principle is that many laboratory animals never see the light of day or special lighting and have no vitamin D deficiency because of their diet which contains adequate Vitamin D

3]Would that amount of Vit D vary from summer to winter and based on how much natural sunlight she gets being outdoors, looking out open window (hardware cloth not glass), out in release cage, Outside with me?

Answer: See #2.

I always check the UV strength, and try to find the right balance of some measurable UV (2-3 generally), vs strong heating sun.
Comment as in #2. Just a suggestion, being outside may have some advantages but there are risks as well such as possible escape (this would obviously be a Hard Release), exposure to excessive sun and heat and developing heat exhaustion or heat stroke, dehydration, potential anxiety and fear and other. Risks of artificial lighting also exist and again, if MySquirrel is eating two HHBs daily, even if there MAY be potential benefits for direct sunlight or certain artificial lighting, this isn't necessary so there really are only the risks left in the "equation!"


BTW - I certainly know that MySquirrel won't be around that much longer.... I mean she is a senior. I am NOT obsessed at all with keeping her alive.
One of the first things I did years ago, was build a euthanasia chamber so that if anything happened, they would not suffer.

HOWEVER, I think that this is an opportunity to practice and perfect MBD treatment so that any future victims of this condition - anywhere - could benefit from MySquirrel's experience.

Answer: I know BN, that this was not a question but please forgive me for posting an answer anyway. I know that you love your little Squirrel and I would encourage you to do just what I assume that you are doing and that is giving MySquirrel all the love, care and comfort that you can and if you need to treat her for MBD, just utilize the Henry's Treatment Plan. It works, is simple to use and is quite safe! My kind suggestion for most of us, me included (I have first hand experience with using the Henry's protocol with Squirrels who have MBD); at least in the case of MBD would be to not improvise and follow Henry's Treatment Program!

IT is an opportunity!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I forgot about your original post and I'll get back with you today with my comments (for what they may be worth) on the magnesium issues.
Regards,
StS

[BigNibbler]

I didn't advise to add 7 percent magnesium, but to include 36 mg. of elemental magnesium to a current rodent block diet. Also, to reduce the block diet by a portion of one quarter to a third in volume, and adding Calcium citrate powder in a minimum of the same amount the calcium is lowered by the block reduction. This is what takes pressure off old kidneys. (36 mg.) elemental calcium in one capsule of Double Wood Magnesium L. threonate, split fed daily with meals; not fed separately from the block, which that contains most of the calcium and protein in the diet.

Diggie, 36mg of elemental magnesium sourced from Magnesium L-Threonate, REQUIRES HALF A GRAM (500mg of Magnesium L-Threonate).
THAT combined with 96mg of additional calcium to treat MBD from Calcium Citrate (20% Elemental Calcium) requires 480mg of Calcium Citrate.
The total of those two powders is a whole gram in weight.


Which is about ten percent (10%) of the mass of Two HHBs at 5grams each.

It is not possible to bury that much dry powder, or moisten it and work it back into the HHBs. MySquirrel knows it is different right away. I tried a bunch of ways - soaking, grinding, remixing, adding flavors, etc. REJECTED!
AND she did not want ANY Threonate. PERIOD.


With Magnesium L Threonate, containing about a third of the elemental magnesium that Magnesium Citrate has, it just means SOOO MUCH POWDER !

[BigNibbler]

I forgot about your original post and I'll get back with you today with my comments (for what they may be worth) on the magnesium issues.
Regards,
StS

THANK YOU SAM! My main question is magnesium WITH or in separated servings as calcium ?

[BigNibbler]

Sam, I don't disagree with your academic perspective on research, practical/theoretical. But, if I have some K2 that I can easily apply occasionally, I might do so.... not to regret failing to do it.
As I described, MySquirrel enjoys her time on my shoulder and our long walks, so she is out in the sun. I am very sensitive to heat stroke. Having no hair on my head myself (!). We generally modulate the time in the sun vs the shade. She knows to hide under my shirt, and sometimes she enjoys my moist cloth on her head.


The established MBD protocol you mention does not seem to be as easy, nor foolproof as you make it sound.
I have read of here, and have met persons, who lost their squirrels in spite of attempting the MBD protocol.

THIS IS THE HENRY'S POSTED MBD PROTOCOL and my inline comments in trying it.


Begin with 500 mg elemental calcium per day divided into 5 doses.

Do you realize how much powder that is, when sourced from Calcium Citrate ?!? That is TWO AND A HALF GRAMS
Which is HALF the size of an HHB block.
And if applying the suggested 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio, means more than ANOTHER 3/4 of a gram of powdery white stuff that is not pleasant to consume!


Eating five meals is rare. Eating the same foods for all those is even more unlikely. Practically she might eat two large meals, in a day. Again she is a senior. So she eats less.


I have measured and compared the shredded HHBs remaining, after she eats HHB served, and generally I must serve twice as much for her to consume the desired portion.
Yes, when I keep prodding her, she will eat a bit more... not all. I calculated 55 -80% at best. Not average.




Give enough calcium to eliminate all symptoms, but not so much that your squirrel is excreting extra calcium in his urine or feces.
Her poops are not dusty white. I know exactly that look, and have had squirrels with that.. But this is not the case here, so I am not over mineralizing her.


IF your squirrel eats HHBs cut calcium dosage in half because the blocks also contain calcium.
She is not eating five meals of HHBs a day.
She is eating one or two - and exhibits much better activity, when she eats more of my mix, then when she eats more HHBs.


REDUCE BAD HIGH PHOSPHOROUS FOODS AND INVERTED CA/PH ratio food stuffs.
ABSOLUTELY! BUT nuts are the best delivery of the extra calcium. Which in turn requires more calcium.


Gradually Reduce the Dosage Over Time; Once in stable condition for 2 weeks, reduce daily calcium by 50 mg.
Reduce further every 2 weeks until the squirrel is only getting 50 mg of extra calcium per day.
She is so very much better, stronger, more active, and went from 470 to 575 grams.
HOWEVER She still is not jumping. Climbing fine, and Running, yes, but not jumping.
And her balance is not perfect, especially when she is scratching with a rear leg.


After 2 months, try eliminating the extra calcium supplements altogether.

If symptoms return at any point, give an emergency 100 mg dose, then go back to a higher dosage for 2 weeks. Be careful with dosage reductions; always carefully watch for any return of symptoms. MBD relapses are very serious and often fatal.

Note: This MBD treatment is a "standardized" treatment that will get most cases on the road to recovery. However, the treatment for each squirrel may be slightly different, depending on the age of the squirrel, severity of disease, and other factors.
EXACTLY: she is 12 years old. She had two broken legs as a juvenile and delivered 8 babies years ago!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Sam, I don't disagree with your academic perspective on research, practical/theoretical. But, if I have some K2 that I can easily apply occasionally, I might do so.... not to regret failing to do it.
As I described, MySquirrel enjoys her time on my shoulder and our long walks, so she is out in the sun. I am very sensitive to heat stroke. Having no hair on my head myself (!). We generally modulate the time in the sun vs the shade. She knows to hide under my shirt, and sometimes she enjoys my moist cloth on her head.


The established MBD protocol you mention does not seem to be as easy, nor foolproof as you make it sound.
I have read of here, and have met persons, who lost their squirrels in spite of attempting the MBD protocol.

THIS IS THE HENRY'S POSTED MBD PROTOCOL and my inline comments in trying it.


Begin with 500 mg elemental calcium per day divided into 5 doses.

Do you realize how much powder that is, when sourced from Calcium Citrate ?!? That is TWO AND A HALF GRAMS
Which is HALF the size of an HHB block.
And if applying the suggested 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio, means more than ANOTHER 3/4 of a gram of powdery white stuff that is not pleasant to consume!


Eating five meals is rare. Eating the same foods for all those is even more unlikely. Practically she might eat two large meals, in a day. Again she is a senior. So she eats less.


I have measured and compared the shredded HHBs remaining, after she eats HHB served, and generally I must serve twice as much for her to consume the desired portion.
Yes, when I keep prodding her, she will eat a bit more... not all. I calculated 55 -80% at best. Not average.




Give enough calcium to eliminate all symptoms, but not so much that your squirrel is excreting extra calcium in his urine or feces.
Her poops are not dusty white. I know exactly that look, and have had squirrels with that.. But this is not the case here, so I am not over mineralizing her.


IF your squirrel eats HHBs cut calcium dosage in half because the blocks also contain calcium.
She is not eating five meals of HHBs a day.
She is eating one or two - and exhibits much better activity, when she eats more of my mix, then when she eats more HHBs.


REDUCE BAD HIGH PHOSPHOROUS FOODS AND INVERTED CA/PH ratio food stuffs.
ABSOLUTELY! BUT nuts are the best delivery of the extra calcium. Which in turn requires more calcium.


Gradually Reduce the Dosage Over Time; Once in stable condition for 2 weeks, reduce daily calcium by 50 mg.
Reduce further every 2 weeks until the squirrel is only getting 50 mg of extra calcium per day.
She is so very much better, stronger, more active, and went from 470 to 575 grams.
HOWEVER She still is not jumping. Climbing fine, and Running, yes, but not jumping.
And her balance is not perfect, especially when she is scratching with a rear leg.


After 2 months, try eliminating the extra calcium supplements altogether.

If symptoms return at any point, give an emergency 100 mg dose, then go back to a higher dosage for 2 weeks. Be careful with dosage reductions; always carefully watch for any return of symptoms. MBD relapses are very serious and often fatal.

Note: This MBD treatment is a "standardized" treatment that will get most cases on the road to recovery. However, the treatment for each squirrel may be slightly different, depending on the age of the squirrel, severity of disease, and other factors.
EXACTLY: she is 12 years old. She had two broken legs as a juvenile and delivered 8 babies years ago!

Hi BN:
Just for history that I have posted before, I do NOT work for Henry's and I have NOT many Squirrels to care for with MBD BUT I have had three advance cases of Squirrels with MBD in my care at different times.

I know that the Henry's Protocol is NOT foolproof BUT no protocol of treatment is foolproof! One big advantage of using a proven to be beneficial (again, not perfect or covering every possibly variation, just proven effective) Protocol or let's say a definitive Treatment Plan is far better than trial and error and its big advantages are consistency through the period of its usage a form of recipe to get the job done!

With a protocol, we do not need to be constantly in constant state of trial and error! Invariably, a protocol that is even marginally effective is far better than none at all or trial and error! I have posted in some of the threads I have discussed treatment for MBD utilizing the Henry's Protocol; I have mentioned that I am a bit more conservative do vary the withdrawal of the Calcium over a long interval and do not consider discontinuing the Supplemental Calcium until quite a while later than Henry's recommends. I also have pointed out a number of times that I do not take lightly to Henry's statement; "If symptoms return at any point, give an emergency 100 mg dose, then go back to a higher dosage for 2 weeks. Be careful with dosage reductions; always carefully watch for any return of symptoms. MBD relapses are very serious and often fatal." I have pointed that MBD treatment will require months of supplementation which can often approach 1 year or even more! Further, there are NO such things as "relapses" of MBD. If a recurrence of signs of MBD occurs during treatment or in the immediate post-treatment period; this means that the condition was NEVER adequately or fully addressed and treated! So-called relapses should NEVER occur as the treatment is predicated upon consistent and adequate maintenance and supplemental Elemental Calcium to result in hopefully not just resolution of any signs of the disease but fully replenish the calcium that has been depleted from the bones!

I do not use Calcium citrate although I recognize some potential advantages to its use. Calcium carbonate has the most Elemental Calcium per unit weight compared with Calcium citrate and the other Calcium salts! You can be creative with giving the daily doses of Calcium and using a nuts may be an ok tradeoff. I have used Nut Butters such a pecan butter. Another option is to use powdered formula and make thick dough with it and some Calcium carbonate powder.

There are options but yes, it's not perfect and it may not really be easy but it is helpful and it can be done!

More to come!

Regards,
StS

[BigNibbler]

I hear what you are saying StS - Yet, if there is a strong relationship between Calcium and Magnesium in the successful metabolism to build bone growth, and we are adding a lot of calcium, for this purpose, are we not also required to add Magnesium ? I believe we are. Yet recently I came across some online information that while Magnesium is in fact essential, it is counterproductive if eaten WITH the calcium and is best served at different times. THAT is what I am trying to clarify here, because I don't recall ever reading about this here. And if so, it is a big issue... to now serve them in isolation from each other.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I hear what you are saying StS - Yet, if there is a strong relationship between Calcium and Magnesium in the successful metabolism to build bone growth, and we are adding a lot of calcium, for this purpose, are we not also required to add Magnesium ? I believe we are. Yet recently I came across some online information that while Magnesium is in fact essential, it is counterproductive if eaten WITH the calcium and is best served at different times. THAT is what I am trying to clarify here, because I don't recall ever reading about this here. And if so, it is a big issue... to now serve them in isolation from each other.

Hi BN:
I'm not a nutritionist but I did make Squirrel Blocks from scratch at one time and back then and continuing to this day, I have been interested in Squirrel nutrition. I have seen NO evidence in regard to Squirrels per se and minimal other "evidence" about an optimal Calcium:Magnesium Ratio or even if this is truly something that needs to be considered or optimized! I have collected some of the so-called evidence available, others recommendations and the like. A common figure I have found in the literature is 2:1. Some folks seem concerned about a potential inhibition of the absorption of Calcium of these with excessive presence Magnesium or vice versa! The answer to this and the answer to your question would be to give these two minerals at different times. Others seem to feel that this is also less than ideal because they cite some evidence in the literature that seems to show that everything seems better with optimizing the Ca:MG ratio while providing Vitamin D as these three seem to also have some ability to work together for the best of all three constituents. IMHO, I feel that if there was more interest and/or concern about this in the animal feed world, there may be some consensus as to at least two pertinent questions that I already alluded to and those are; a) does the Ca:Mg ratio really have any true clinical impact beyond some theoretical benefits or risks (in other words, even if there is an optimal Ca:Mg Ratio, does it make any definitive CLINICAL difference and; b) If (a) can be demonstrated, what then is the optimal Ca:Mg Ratio? I really don't believe that there is much going on in the way of determining either of these!

Also, to complicate matters, Some say that the Ca:Mg Ratio is an principle that is represents the cumulative ingestion of Calcium and Magnesium throughout the day regardless of whether or not they were administered together! Further complicating all of this BN is that even if one would like to define an optimal Ca:Mg Ratio or find out what one might be, any definitive research would be daunting! One last thing to add; is that even if you want to use a 2:1 Ca:Mg Ratio (or any other specific ratio) you could not simple directly measure out corresponding amounts of the Calcium and Magnesium Sources; you would need to first figure out the percentages of Elemental Calcium and Elemental Magnesium present in the particular Ca and Mg salts that you chose!

When making Squirrel Blocks either from scratch or from a base of one or more of the quality Blocks; I use the suggestions and recommendations present within the Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals (NROLA),: Fourth Revised Edition, 1995 using the Rat Chapter as Squirrels thankfully are not tortured in the laboratory like their cousins are and as such, there is no Squirrel chapter! Incidentally, Henry's states on their packages of food that this is their reference also. I have found that even though they don't specifically state this to be the case; both Teklad and Mazuri also utilize this source. In summary, the recommendation from NROLA in regard to the inclusion of Ca, Phosphorus and Mg in the animal food is (expressed in grams of nutrient per Kg of food) Ca 5g/Kg of food, Phos 3g/Kg of food and Mg 0.5g/Kg of food. This would translate to a Ca:Phos Ration of ~1.7:1 and a Ca:Mg Ratio of 10:1 (quite a difference form the commonly cited 2:1 Ratio)!

What little my opinion may be worth; my perceptions are that there is a true paucity of any definitive or convincing evidence available in support of utilizing some variation of the concept of a Ca:Mg Ratio and for that reason, BN, I just don't worry about it BUT I would love to other who may have evidence supporting this concept or particular reasoning that might lead to my reappraising what I just wrote!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel