Magnesium: Amount and serving times vs Calcium for MBD treatment?

[Diggie's Friend]

Digestion in humans is slower than that of rats and other small rodents. Lab Research has determined that rats absorb nutrients and anti-nutrients like the insoluble form of (Calcium oxalate), into their bloodstream, better than humans.

In support of older squirrels, and all those the age of weaning, that no longer have incisors; combining ground rodent block and nutrient powders with liquid food grade sources added (cold pressed (organic) virgin coconut oil, food grade nutraceutical oils, and purified water) to support a gruel consistency. Mixtures that have a thicker, and/or sticky gooey consistency, have a tendency to stick to the flap on the back of the throat of rodents, where they can continue to build up and lead to gagging while eating. If a mixture is thick, thin it out before feeding; and should it dry out to where it thickens up; then add some drops of water to thin it out. As the saying goes; "Better to be safe than sorry.".

Take care, DF

[BigNibbler]

Hi BN:
... ( PARAPHRASED I have seen NO evidence in regard to Squirrels per se ,,,I really don't believe that there is much going on in the way of determining either Ca;Mg ratios, nor in the efficacy of serving them together, as opposed to discreetly as in separate feedings

... and you could not simple directly measure out corresponding amounts of the Calcium and Magnesium Sources; you would need to first figure out the percentages of Elemental Calcium and Elemental Magnesium present in the particular Ca and Mg salts that you chose!

...the recommendation from NROLA: Ca:Phos Ration of ~1.7:1 and a Ca:Mg Ratio of 10:1 (quite a difference form the commonly cited 2:1 Ratio)!

there is a true paucity of any definitive or convincing evidence available in support of utilizing some variation of the concept of a Ca:Mg Ratio and for that reason, BN, I just don't worry about it BUT I would love to other who may have evidence supporting this concept or particular reasoning that might lead to my reappraising what I just wrote!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

YES - I paraphrased all that you wrote, and THAT is why I am asking ... and will be adding to...

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

YES - I paraphrased all that you wrote, and THAT is why I am asking ... and will be adding to...

????!
StS

[BigNibbler]

????!
StS

Well it sounded like you basically agreed I need to do more research. That there were more unanswered considerations. And that is why I asked and was hoping for answers.

Believe that my condensed version, covered all key points....Please forgive me, if I omitted something. MySquirrel may have distracted me.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Well it sounded like you basically agreed I need to do more research. That there were more unanswered considerations. And that is why I asked and was hoping for answers.

Believe that my condensed version, covered all key points....Please forgive me, if I omitted something. MySquirrel may have distracted me.

Hi BN:
No problem really, I just didn't understand what you meant. I started using the Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals (NROLA),: Fourth Revised Edition, 1995 utilizing the Rat Chapter when I first began making Blocks from scratch! I still use it as a guide even though I now make Blocks usually using Teklad 2018 and I have availed myself of this reference ever since! It is quite thorough, relatively easy to use, and is evidence based. I wish that a new edition would appear but probably that is going to be it. Maybe there is something similar that I have somehow overlooked in my searches.

Another source that I have used, BN, is to "reverse engineer" using the very detailed Data Sheets that are available for all of the Teklad Blocks. I absolutely hate the parent company, Inotive and their subsidiaries Envigo and Teklad (At one time Harlan-Teklad) because of Envigo's animal cruelty case involving many horribly mistreated beagles being removed by authorities and a fine and restrictions ordered as well and for the fact that these companies raise laboratory animals. Somehow I am able to indulge in some mental gymnastics and separate the food the company makes from their less wholesome activities with raising and selling laboratory animals!

There are lots of questions and far les answers in the world of Nutrition and unfortunately, the lack of data doesn't prevent someone from writing what are really their opinions as if it was based upon irrefutable evidence or even some quality evidence! Oh well!

If you find some answer, BN, please bring them back to TSB! Certainly all of your question and ours as well, are worthy of answers!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Diggie's Friend]

Though not a given, considering your squirrel's age, his kidneys may not be able to handle as much magnesium as could if he were younger.
You may want to try reducing the amount of the Magnesium L. threonate capsule by "Double Wood" by half, to give a quarter of the total with each meal, instead of adding half the capsule contents with each meal.

[BigNibbler]

Though not a given, considering your squirrel's age, his kidneys may not be able to handle as much magnesium as could if he were younger.
You may want to try reducing the amount of the Magnesium L. threonate capsule by "Double Wood" by half, to give a quarter of the total with each meal, instead of adding half the capsule contents with each meal.

Thank you, but as I said not only is the amount of elemental Magnesium so insignificant in that mix - but MySquirrel did not like it!

[BigNibbler]

Just an update: MySquirrel is continuing to get older, so I guess that is as good as I can hope for. But her weight gain is sporadic. She gained a nice amount but then gets finicky and loses weight.
With more weight she seems more perky and more athletic and toned and active. But then she gets finicky and regresses.

Still varying her mixes and trying to get her to consume more calcium but its a lot more of a challenge than most posts I have read here seem to suggest.

Her low weight was about 470 and her high was about 585 . Now she is 535.

[Charley Chuckles]

Gary her weight sounds good, I know my Conker was a big boy and I never liked when he lost with even though by a chart that looked good but by my eyes I didn't like it as he wasn't the same boy.
I use to sprinkle a little calcium carbonate I'd get from Healthy Henry's Pets. Not a lot and not all the time. It's a balancing act.
Wishing your baby health and many more years with you, your a good papa 🤗

[BigNibbler]

Thanks Charley, but a dusting, isn't really going to do much... unless it is very heavy and caked on, as is possible with deeply soaked, moistened HHB and that makes the eating of it less pleasant and leads to more "peeling" of the HHB and more waste. Dusting is good for possible routine preventive maintenance, but I imagine can also become a breathing irritant. For SERIOUS MBD REVERSAL - basically a net positive of 100-200mg of elemental calcium is needed.
That requires a half gram PER MEAL of Calcium Citrate. Considering a whole meal is at most about 10 grams ( based on serving three HHB at 5grams each, and shredding of 30%) . So one needs to find a delivery food that is LOVED, CONSISTENTLY, not only occasionally and where the portion eaten can be embellished with at least half a gram of powder, without discouraging consumption any.

I have found that the food most consistently enjoyed and actually eaten is coarsely ground filberts - which is a high phosphorous food, requiring MORE CALCIUM to offset that larger amount of phosphorus.
Yet for MySquirel that is what works best.

So far my most eaten recipe is simply 500 grams of filberts ground for 45 seconds in a salad chopper - with 70 grams of Calcium Citrate. I then use a dough mixer to mix it for five minutes more ( not grinding so as to keep the coarse texture ), and ADD 180 grams of water with a 5% good grade protein based gelatin and one half gram of Calcium Propionate premixed into that water.

I have experimented with variations that include 2-4 grams of Pine Bark, 2-15 grams Magnesium Citrate or Magnesium L-Threonate, Some Pre/Pro Biotics, Varying amounts of Gelatin and sometimes not using any preservative.
I had also tried using up to 20% of Almonds, instead of filberts, and INSTEAD of magnesium.


HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE: None of the variations is consumed consistently and with the enjoyment or in the amounts that the first recipe above ( actually my last recipe, but with repeated attempts at the others and more! )

In weeks where MySquirrel is eating the filbert mix, she gains weight, is MORE ACTIVE, more curious, more into running and awake much more.
Those days I also give her TWO almonds a day and three HHB, and she always has lettuce and 2018 rodent nuggets.

Whenever I try to get her to eat what is supposed to be "better" IE: more magnesium, or pine bark etc, she will eat with substantial enthusiasm the FIRST MEAL. Period. Then for the next 3 to five days, she will reject completely any of that mix, as if she has gotten a tummy ache or has learned that the mix is bad. Generally it takes a week to get her to trust the mix again, and during the week she is self fasting, she both loses weight, poise, and interest.

So it seems that the less healthy food, but the simplest is also the mix that works best.

IF you have CONSTRUCTIVE PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE in a particular food stuff, that I could use INSTEAD of the filberts, so high in phosphorus... .I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THAT?

I had also tried a variety of greens, squash, HHB, Korean Yam, Mushrooms, and more as a food base to deliver the Calcium, and NONE were met with any interest!
Surprisingly, Almonds, which she loves, once ground and mixed with the powder and gelatin were not of much interest to her.

As a second best approach, I did try grinding up HHB blocks along with a proportionate amount of Calcium Citrate. What I found is that any block I try to re-make with liquid ( either gel water or coconut oil or a mix ), or that is finely ground she has no interest in. If I only do a course grinding of the HHB blocks with the calcium powder, she will eat it but I am not confident that she is consuming a large enough amount of the calcium. The calcium powder that does not stick to the HHB ground bits, I would think settles down and is lost to her. ALSO her interest it eating that ground HHB mix waned pretty quickly.

FINALLY ONE IMPORTANT POINT: You MUST use a coffee grinder to regrind the Calcium Citrate powder. Any brand I have tried, the powder is of some granularity. Grinding it about 60 seconds in an $18 coffee grinder makes a HUGE difference and results in a silky smooth soft powder, that has to be much more palatable in any recipe. And certainly for any dusting application.

[Charley Chuckles]

Hummm even Dr Emerson told me it's fine to sprinkle the calcium on food. If your concerned about it you could always mush it up in avocado or other veggies fruits she will eat.

[BigNibbler]

Abby -

1] MySquirrel will only eat avocado when for a few weeks when it is in season. The small ones, not the big ones. THEN she will eat it for a few days and tire of it. She does not like it all mushed up, but fresh and crisply cut.

2] AS I HAD SAID ABBY - Dusting presents insufficient calcium powder to be at all effective in REVERSING MBD !

3] I am not going to debate whether dusting with my finely ground calcium might be a breathing irritant. Sprinkle some down on a relatively dry non moistened foodstuff, and take a deep breath through your nose.
Then you can let me know if it is perfectly pleasurable? I treat MySquirrel, the way I would want to be treated.

[Charley Chuckles]

Understood.
Only Way I believe you could give extra calcium if that's what your asking would be to add it to water bowl I've know of others to do that.

[BigNibbler]

Calcium does NOT dissolve in water. IT can mix and remain suspended in water FOR A SHORT WHILE, but most will immediately sink.
The result is she will reject the water because it is different and cloudy looking, but won't have any appreciable amount of calcium at the top, where she skims the water.

IT is generally considered dangerous to add anything to water when dealing with such a finicky patient. She will stop drinking. And that is exactly what she does!

She has five cups of water in her room. Originally she only had one. When she got sick over a year ago, I added more water to make it easier so she always had water near her.
I could not get her to drink any water from those new cups! it took about three months. Now she does drink from all of them.

Years ago, I designed a hidden magnetic stirrer on a timer, that activated every twenty minutes. I had an injured squirrel on medicines and I used frequently stirring ( automatically every twenty minutes for ten seconds ) as a way of keeping all the meds suspended. This required measuring how much water he would drink at each visit, and then dosing the water so he would have the correct amounts.

The idea was that the stirrer was quiet housed below in wood... and he quickly got used to the stirring sound. And most likely drinking would not coincide with a stirring moment.

It worked quite well and he had a full recovery.

I had thought of it with MySquirrel, but since she drinks now from multiple sources, including from two bottles downstairs, it is not applicable.

BTW - squirrels definitely smell water and if it smells different ...

[Charley Chuckles]

magnetic stirrer , cool idea 👍

[BigNibbler]

I am excited to say that MySquirrel is doing MUCH better than I could have hoped for last year, when I first began the journey of MBD treatment. Today she is just over 580 grams, which is about 110 grams more than she was at her low point, when she just felt like a bag of bones and had no muscle tone - then she was unable to eat sitting up, to walk without dragging a collapsed leg, and running or jumping were long impossible.

Today she is alert, perky and very active, she climbs and jumps when she feels it is safe, within a two foot range, and her legs never collapse!
I don't know how much longer she will continue to improve, or to even be around but I feel good in being able to learn more about her needs and hope to continue to learn.

During my treatment plan, I made sure to include exercise sessions daily, or on alternate days... just as we humans would need recovery.
While harnessed, there were days that she ran over five blocks, at what seemed to be about 80% - a bit over three quarters her maximum normal run speed.
Those outings are paused now, due to the cold... I think.

The elaborate ramp and accessible accommodations I had made for her to get about in her room, as well as accompanied visits outside of it have played a big role in her being able to recover without injury but while still being able take an interest in her environment.

She is Thirteen !

All this time I have been experimenting with diet and trying to find a way to get the much needed calcium into her despite her brave objections and resistance to eating most anything I continued to come up with. But gradually, and finally I have narrowed down what seems like a practical and effective recipe. It is very pleasing to see that finally she is enjoying my mix enough to value it, and want to safe guard extra pieces. I still have questions and continue to make tweaks - but very soon will be ready to report the winning mix in case it can be of help to anyone else.

My goal is to taper down the increase in calcium I have been feeding, but still serve enough to encourage a continuing trajectory of improvement ( if possible ) while reducing predictable kidney damage that minerals can cause.

More to follow....

[Charley Chuckles]

Gary I'm so HAPPY to hear this
Great job 👏👏👏
13 just WOW 😃

[BigNibbler]

Hmmm - thought there would be more interest in this.... but I guess no rush in updating with photos, recipes and best steps.

[BigNibbler]

MySquirrel continues to age. She got over two UTI's over two years, which I believe is due to her insisting on rolling and digging in soil as we go for harnessed walks over many years. I kind have phased out her freedom to decide where we actually walk. She knows not to go on people's lawns, and will stop immediately if I say "NO!" She knows I won't let her climb more than a few feet up trees but since i have stopped letting her roll about in parks and only let her roll about in my property or "no dogs allowed spaces" she has not had any UTI. She is slowly getting stronger. Last year she gained full strength and weight. But now - round two she is slower in recovery.

Anyway I will be posting separately a MySquirrel recipe and mixing guide for two mixes that I found work to slowly overcome MBD.
But for now, here is the main mix - instructions details and ingredients.
And a few photos.

My Custom Squirrel Mix is more detailed than many recipes, even though it has few ingredients, and no baking or cooking. The mixing speeds, and the order affects the texture, the aroma, and the eating experience,
Main ingredients by volume or weight are blanched filberts and Teklad 2014 Rodent Nuggets. Their purpose is to deliver the all important ingredient Calcium Citrate and and some Magnesium Citrate
Pine Bark Extract is an optional ingredient which is supposed to be healthy and natural for squirrels. It has awful taste and texture. But they seem to like it in very small quantities.
Liquids are water and coconut oil.
The purpose is to provide an appetizing mix that is eaten due to the nuts, while delivering all the nutrients of the Rodent Nuggets. To counterbalance the high phosphorus of the nuts, and also to serve up the MBD needed calcium and magnesium, those two mineral are added.

Magnesium is limited to avoid stool softening and because along with this diet, some raw unsalted almonds are served as treats and/OR serve my other recommended mix of ground almonds and calcium citrate powder. Almonds high level of natural occurring magnesium is more easily absorbed.
This recipe is designed to provide two different nut textures. A finely ground meal, to mix with the nugget dust and minerals, and a more coarse larger nut fragment to provide appeal to some that would not eat just a fine blend. Larger fragments have a stronger aroma.
These mixing instructions have been repeatedly tested and repeatedly tweaked to ensure that the fine mineral powders are thoroughly mixed, along with the two main ingredients, and that the nuts are not over ground to become buttery. The amount of water, affects both the consistency and the aroma as well as the volume, so the more water, the more diluted the mix, but the less water, the less fragrant and appetizing.
With more water, the volume increases, so the potency of the minerals is reduced, and animals can fail to ingest sufficient amount of minerals. More water also can lead to a non-hardening or putty soft result. Less water on the other hand leads to a harder cake, more solid but also with loss of aroma that the animal finds enticing. Coconut oil works as a mild preservative, which means that hidden treasures still smell and taste safe to eat when the squirrel remembers it. But too much oil makes the food greasy, which is off-putting, and discourages their desire to handle it.
You can experiment with less water, but then, some of your friends will insist that you use a spray bottle and spray the dried cake a bit before serving, after two or three days in the fridge.
Success of this recipe requires careful attention to the set up and mixing of the parts, and use of specific home appliances.
Calcium Citrate, regardless of the brand, will need to be additionally finely ground in a coffee or other mineral grinder, that has NOT been used for coffee or any other fragrant food.
You will need a blender to grind the rodent nuggets into a fine dust, and a food processor to chop the nuts and preliminarily mix them with the rodent nugget dust and the minerals. Also you will need a Kitchen Aid style mixer, to better blend the dry ingredients first, then fold them in with the liquid ingredients. If that mixing bowl, does not have a heating feature, then you may want to use a hot air blower.
I use a SEEKONE Mini Heat Gun, 350 W it is just the right power, narrow angle, and simple operation. You will need some way to mount or fix it’s safe aim towards the bowl. I improvised this with an old tabletop vise. But some combination of metallic parts could be used.
You will need a reliable and accurate gram scale that can measure a few kilograms at least and be at least accurate to a single gram.
You will need a 1-1.5 liter coffee pot type container that can be fit in and be microwaved, but that you can also safely hold boiling water, while drill mixing it, and pouring it!
Before I got this, my heavy old Pyrex dribbled, spilled splashed, etc. This is an amazing coffee pot ultra lightweight, huge capacity and built to withstand temperature extremes.
12 Cup Coffee Pot Replacement for KEURIG K-DUO 5100 Glass Coffee Carafe
You will need a hand drill for mixing and a silicone mixing padel, so there is no danger that you might crack the glass coffee pot! I love these
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BWPXVZ3Z...n_title_1&th=1

You will need a bakers’s pan and a spatula to flatten and spread out the mix, for it to set over night in the fridge.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D1FZ9VG5...asin_title_1_0

Preparing the Ingredients
Measure the water by weight into the coffee pot. Include 10-20 grams (cc) more water to allow for evaporation and adherence.
I use 650 grams of water. So I measure about 665-670 to allow for evaporation etc.
Heat the water for about six minutes in the microwave.
Warm the coconut oil if not melted and pour 100grams of it into a container.
Then add it to the hot water. I pour some hot water back and forth between the two containers to get as much of the oil into the water as possible.
Over the fifteen minutes or so that it takes to do the steps below, I repeatedly whip the water/oil solution. Be careful that the water does not actually start to boil. That will create a dangerous splatter when you stir it up with the drill stirrer.

Pre-grind Teklad 2014 Rodent nuggets in a high speed blender on maximum speed, by filling the blender with about 1-1.5KG of nuggets and grinding for THREE 60 second sessions. Don’t run all three sessions back to back… give the machine a moment to cool.
Pre-Grind Calcium Citrate in a mineral or coffee grinder. This is vital, so that the powder is silky smooth. Remember that these minerals do not dissolve. They become suspended and their texture can be rejected, making the whole mix useless. Grind!
Makes sure you have some finely ground Magnesium Citrate - Most purchased products are quite soft powders that don’t need additional grinding, unlike the Calcium Citrate.
Measure out two portions of each 350 grams of nugget dust.
Measure out two portions each of 350 grams of roasted blanched filberts
Measure out two portions each of 15 grams of Calcium Citrate and two portions of 6 grams each of magnesium citrate.
IF you want to use Pine Bark extract – for this 1400 gram Nugget/Nut mix, I use at most 3 grams. But it is an option that I would not use at all to start. And then, I would begin by 1 to 2 grams. You mix it into the hot water stirring it in good, BEFORE adding the oil.



Mixing the Ingredients
Pour one portion of nugget dust into the food processor of your blending machine.
Atop that nugget dust, pour in one of each of the calcium, and the magnesium measured.
ADD on top of that, the blanched filbets.
So you have half the contents, of all four ingredients, with the minerals, BETWEEN the layers of the nugget dust and the as yet unchopped nuts.
Run the machine on medium for ten to 18 seconds so that the four components are quite mixed, but the nuts are not churned, just gross chopped. Chunky nuts are the goal here.
Empty that into the mixing bowl of your kitchen aid type mixer.
Assemble the second set of those four ingredients into the now empty food processor, in exactly the same way with the minerals above the rodent nugget dust and below the nuts. Run the chopper this time for a bit more, – try forty seconds – also on Medium speed. Add that second result into the mixing bowl.
Start the Mixing bowl and your stopwatch, or look at the clock.
ALSO at this time START THE HOT AIR BLOWER if using one.
Run the mixer on medium speed, for about five minutes.
Smack the sides of the bowl frequently to keep food from sticking and being stationary at the top.
While the bowl is mixing, give the oil and water some more stirrings, and make sure it is nearly boiling, but not boiling. Generally my 670 grams of water, in a small microwave are heated about ten or so minutes, some of that time after the oil has been added.
Once the Mixing bowl has been running for at least 5-8 minutes, (more is better to ensure even mix of the minerals among the foodstuffs)

Immediately after aggressively whipping the oil/water mix, and while continuing a controlled stirring I CAREFULLY start pouring it into the mixing bowl.
Do it slowly over about 30 seconds or so. The mixing bowl should be quite hot now, with your added liquid, and the hot air gun/blower all that time.
I like to try to keep the mixer going a few minutes. It might mean pausing it to sweep the mix off the bowl’s wall or to vary the speed.
And that is it! Shut everything down. Press the hot mix into a 1-inch-deep cake tray, spread it all even and about ¾ inch thick. Leave it uncovered in the fridge for about 8 hours.

Attachment 329447

[BigNibbler]

+++IMPORTANT: I should have included two important ideas.

Some squirrels may approve of this mix more readily than others.
To help the less enthusiastic, you could do what I originally did with MySquirrel.
You could gradually creep up on the Rodent Nugget dust, favoring the nuts to begin with.
So for example, instead of equal amounts, (700/700 or 7/7) you could do 700 grams of nuts and 400 grams of nuggets. Each mix, you increase the nugget amount.
This will greatly affect the amount of water that the mix would require. As a rule of thumb, you would start reducing the water, proportionally to the reduction nugget dust.

But you should quickly ramp up to the equal parts recipe.

ALSO, I like making large portions. I freeze them, and give them away.
BUT you may want to make a lot smaller an amount, especially if you are ramping up the nuts.

Mixers and blenders do not work the same with smaller quantities and in fact my 700+700 is due to the fact that my blender and mixer handle those volumes well.

But you can proportionally divide everything by 7, or by 3.5 and then you would be making a 100+100 or 200+200 mix.

>>>If you are doing small amounts, you will probably not be able to make two textures, because each part will then be too small to effectively be worked by the blade or the mixing paddle. In that case just make it in one part, with the food processor used for a middle amount of time.

Hamilton Beach Electric Vegetable Chopper & Mini Food Processor, 3-Cup, 350 Watts, for Dicing, Mincing, and Puree, Black (72850) is a $21 solution from Amazon, if you need something for small quantities. You could probably just fit 200+200 in that, and the 400 mix would be a minimum that would handle well in the later stage of the mixing bowl.