9 Year old Moby HELP

[Mel1959]

I haven’t read every word of this thread so I apologize if I’ve missed critical information. I’m wondering why there is a question about starting the antibiotic? That antibiotic is one that some rehabbers use exclusively because it has the least side effects with GI issues. What do you have to lose with trying it? Didn’t StS say it was safe for the kidneys? Something is clearly going on with Moby. In my opinion trying something is better than doing nothing.

[TubeDriver]

I would hold off on bringing Moby to the Wildlife Center. If they are anything like the Wildlife Centers in my area, they are not equipped to handle this type of challenge and the two possible outcomes (euthanasia or hard release) are not what you want for your boy. Sometimes, when there are no easy answers, we have to take a shot in the dark. I would consider an adequate trail of the TMP/SMZ before handing him over to the Wildlife Center. You have had some of TSBs best and brightest helping you here, please exhaust all options before handing him over.

[RamiS]

Hey everyone, we just started the first dose of the AB (septra) which I think is tmp-smz. dose at .25 we will do this every 12 hours for 7 days as stated on the bottle from the vet.

[supersquirrelgirl]

Hey everyone, we just started the first dose of the AB (septra) which I think is tmp-smz. dose at .25 we will do this every 12 hours for 7 days as stated on the bottle from the vet.

Rami, We don't know each other but Thank You for not giving up. Moby is counting on you so this is the right choice.

SSG

[Chirps]

[supersquirrelgirl]

Chirps, Love your praying squirrel!

I would change the text to "GOD, I need a favor!"

SSG

[Chirps]

Chirps, Love your praying squirrel!

I would change the text to "GOD, I need a favor!"

SSG

Thanks. The squirrel is one of the emoticons here. I don't have any text. You mean my sig? That's in all my posts. But what you suggest definitely applies.

[Mel1959]

Hey everyone, we just started the first dose of the AB (septra) which I think is tmp-smz. dose at .25 we will do this every 12 hours for 7 days as stated on the bottle from the vet.

Thank you for taking a chance. Moby is much too old to be released. I know of squirrels that have been released at 4 yrs old, which I thought was pretty old, and was done after a very long soft release process. Nine years old is very old and who knows how a wildlife center would release??!! Personally, there are very few centers I trust to do what I consider the “right” thing.

[RamiS]

Hi everyone -

I just wanted to give an update on Moby. We started the AB on Thursday, and yesterday he started spending more time outside, playing a little, and making up for time lost damaging anything he can get his teeth on
His food intake has improved significantly and his water intake is normal. We are continuing the AB twice day (12 hours apart) at .25/mls. He is by no means back to 100% as he is not yet running around or doing the crazy train pacing, but it seems like a slow process.

I wanted to ask if anyone has any knowledge on Arthritis, since his Xray showed all four legs have it, I am wondering on what is the best way to manage this once he is back to his normal self. The vet did give me Melaxcom but I have not started giving him that yet until we finish the AB course which is 7 days, so we have a few days left. Also, the bump on his anckle is still there, I did warm compressions but its not helping so I am not sure if indeed it is an Abscess or something else, any thoughts of suggestions on this would be great.

Thanks everyone

[supersquirrelgirl]

Hi Rami,

So glad you posted an update. Progress being made in slow positive steps. Moby being more active along with appetite/drinking is a good sign. Is the ankle bump solid or is firm with slight squishy ??

[TubeDriver]

That sounds like Moby is heading in the right directions, I hope this improvement continues! If the ankle bump is an abscess, you should start to see reddish/inflamed looking skin and hair loss pretty quickly. I recall that Moby got X-rayed so we can rule out a fracture? If it is abscess, then at some point, lancing and draining will greatly help the healing process, in addition, AB can be administered to help him deal with this infection.

How to treat arthritis long term is a tricky question. You can certainly treat prn with NSAIDs or pain meds but the effects of long term/chronic use on Moby's system especially at his advanced age could be problematic. I would consider trying Pycogenol (oral, 10-20mg/kg body weight/day) which is a antioxidant with anti-inflammatory effects that may help with bone density as well as arthritis. There is a moderate number of peer reviewed literature supporting pycogenol for an array of health benefits and just as important, it has very few side effects or downsides. I can help with specific dosing if I have Moby's body weight and the strength of the pycogenol tablet. Might be worth a shot to see if it helps. Other TSBers will hopefully have some ideas as well.

Here are some articles:

1) Jessberger, S., Högger, P., Genest, F. et al. Cellular pharmacodynamic effects of Pycnogenol® in patients with severe osteoarthritis: a randomized controlled pilot study. BMC Complement Altern Med 17, 537 (2017). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12906-017-2044-1
https://bmccomplementmedtherapies.bi...906-017-2044-1


2) J Med Food. 2018 Jan 1; 21(1): 1–4.
Review on Sustained Relief of Osteoarthritis Symptoms with a Proprietary Extract from Pine Bark, Pycnogenol
Peter Jörg Rohdewaldcorresponding author
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5775113/

3) Liu X, Machado GC, Eyles JP, Ravi V, Hunter DJ. Dietary supplements for treating osteoarthritis: A systematic review and meta-analysis. Br J Sports Med. 2018;52(3):167-175. doi:10.1136/bjsports-2016-097333

Hi everyone -

I just wanted to give an update on Moby. We started the AB on Thursday, and yesterday he started spending more time outside, playing a little, and making up for time lost damaging anything he can get his teeth on
His food intake has improved significantly and his water intake is normal. We are continuing the AB twice day (12 hours apart) at .25/mls. He is by no means back to 100% as he is not yet running around or doing the crazy train pacing, but it seems like a slow process.

I wanted to ask if anyone has any knowledge on Arthritis, since his Xray showed all four legs have it, I am wondering on what is the best way to manage this once he is back to his normal self. The vet did give me Melaxcom but I have not started giving him that yet until we finish the AB course which is 7 days, so we have a few days left. Also, the bump on his anckle is still there, I did warm compressions but its not helping so I am not sure if indeed it is an Abscess or something else, any thoughts of suggestions on this would be great.

Thanks everyone

[RamiS]

Hi - I am not seeing hair loss in that area, no redness so I am not sure, but I know when I try to rub lightly on that area, he pulls away, so it seems to be bothering him. As for the arthrites. I am just not sure what that means for him, will he always be in pain without meds, will it affect his life span? Should I get him on Melaxcom soon to help with inflammation? do I do that as a 7-10 course or like once a week.

As for him healing, yesterday was the closest to normal he has been in over a week, today he ate normally but spend 90% of the day sleeping so I am hoping someone can tell me if this is normal while on ABs

[CritterMom]

What is the latest regarding glucosamine and chondroitin? I know I had my horse on it for years and could see definite improvement with it vs. without. There is a good article with info on rats here: https://ratguide.com/meds/herbals_he...in_sulfate.php

BTW, this is an excellent site with a ton of medical info.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi - I am not seeing hair loss in that area, no redness so I am not sure, but I know when I try to rub lightly on that area, he pulls away, so it seems to be bothering him. As for the arthrites. I am just not sure what that means for him, will he always be in pain without meds, will it affect his life span? Should I get him on Melaxcom soon to help with inflammation? do I do that as a 7-10 course or like once a week.

As for him healing, yesterday was the closest to normal he has been in over a week, today he ate normally but spend 90% of the day sleeping so I am hoping someone can tell me if this is normal while on ABs

Hello again RamiS:
Thanks for the Moby Update! This is very encouraging!

Sleepiness is not a usual effect of antibiotics but rest can certainly be beneficial during a healing process and if Moby was in the wild, he would not have the luxury of being able to rest unthreatened as he is now so the resting may really be for his advantage, I just cannot say for certain!

How large is this bump? Will Moby let you push on it enough to to help determine if it is soft and "mushy" or relatively hard? Does it move if you put some pressure on the bump from the side or does it seem fixed in place? When you move Moby's foot, does the bump move also or does it remain stationary? I sure wish the Vet had listened to you about this bump as an exam while sedated would have been easy and beneficial and they could have done an ultrasound to see if it was solid or hollow (that would suggest a fluid filled mass such as an abscess) or even aspirated it or opened it if this seemed safe and beneficial---but they didn't!

As far as diagnosing Osteoarthritis (OA) from x-ray films (again, I am not a Vet so these are my personal comments and not meant to be putting you at odds with your Vet); there are certain well recognized signs of OA that can be seen on an x-ray film. One is joint space narrowing which results from degeneration of the cushioning cartilage on the ends of the bones comprising a joint. As an example; this may be easy to see in a human when the subject is standing and a knee (which is obviously a relatively very large joint) is visualized with an x-ray film but it is far more difficult to see Joint Space Narrowing in a tiny Squirrel's x-ray films especially when there is no weight bearing or means to put opposing pressure on the bones in a joint! The other well recognized signs of OA on x-ray films are increases in density of bone that (was) underlying cartilage as the shock absorbing function of the now worn down cartilage is left to the bone and it tends to become more dense (called subchondral sclerosis). In severe cases where bone is rubbing on bone, fluid filled cysts can develop in the bone at the joint and if there is any resultant misalignment of the joint from degeneration there, osteophytes or tiny bony extensions can develop. Again, I am not trying to second guess your Vet or say that Moby does not have OA but it just seems to me to be very difficult to make this diagnosis from the x-ray film you uploaded. That being said, as OA is a degenerative condition and extremely common as an association with age; I do not doubt that Moby has at least some problems associated with OA. In the wild, virtually no Squirrel will survive long enough to develop severe OA but Moby has been provided you loving care for over 9 years and he has probably lived long enough to be affected at least to some degree by OA.

Again, my opinion; but I would NOT recommend giving Moby regular or daily doses of any of the NSAIDs such as Meloxicam or Ibuprofen as these medications have significant risks including bleeding and kidney damage! As an animal or Human ages, kidney function invariably declines or at least becomes more vulnerable and I would not risk using regular NSAIDs (again, my non-professional opinion)!

While I am not convinced about the effectiveness of using Glucosamine & Chondroitin in general, the combination may be at least somewhat beneficial in some cases but there appear to be little risk for the average animal. That being said, even with humans who consume the vast majority of this combination supplement, there are no studies that would suffice to determine an optimal and safe doing and IMHO, there are no studies that are convincing for some sort of across the species benefit! For a Squirrel, the dosing is a "crap-shoot" and even the dosing noted by our wonderful CritterMom, is noted by the Rat Guide to be "empirical!" which in medical talk, means basically the dosage was derived through some related experience, educated guesswork, general knowledge, etc; and NOT from any rigorous experiment or data!

[TubeDriver]

I think using glucosamine and pycogenol is worth a shot. There is some evidence that it can help but YMMV. There are no real downsides to trying it. Hell, I use glucosamine/MSM and pycogenol daily and have for years, I can't say how much it helps but any benefit to my broken, old body is welcome.

I'll just echo SamSquirrel, giving pain meds regularly over sustained is incredibly hard on the stomach and kidneys (same with humans). That will eventually lead to serious issues. We will all experience some loss of function and aches/pains as we age, thats just a fact of life for people, squirrels and well..... pretty much everyone. So treat in the moment for acute issues but try to find some safer alternatives for long term management.

There are a lot of studies that have looked at the effects of drugs on rats so getting a squirrel dose is not too difficult, I would just err on the lower/safer dosage for long term treatment. But glucosamine and pycnogenol are very safe overall.

What is the latest regarding glucosamine and chondroitin? I know I had my horse on it for years and could see definite improvement with it vs. without. There is a good article with info on rats here: https://ratguide.com/meds/herbals_he...in_sulfate.php

BTW, this is an excellent site with a ton of medical info.

[RamiS]

HI all - I need your help. Although Moby seems to be doing better, I am concerned that this bump on his leg to be an abscess, the issue is I dont see a head, I keep doing warm compress, but I think I need a vet to look at this. If it is an abscess, it needs to be opened and drained. Can you guys help me to find a nearby vet in OK? I cant take him to that same vet again.

[TubeDriver]

I don't know of any vets in OK. Can you post up a photo of the bump? Has it changed size at all?

HI all - I need your help. Although Moby seems to be doing better, I am concerned that this bump on his leg to be an abscess, the issue is I dont see a head, I keep doing warm compress, but I think I need a vet to look at this. If it is an abscess, it needs to be opened and drained. Can you guys help me to find a nearby vet in OK? I cant take him to that same vet again.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi RamiS:
How is Moby doing?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[RamiS]

Hi Everyone,

Well, As of 3 days ago he has been waking up and acting totally normal, he has even started to run around again which I was so excited to see. This mornin I gave him what would be the final dose of ABs (total 7 days). My concern with him is the fact that I feel its up and down and I dont know why. for the past 3 days he would wake up, eat all his food, drink his water and run around and play for a couple hours but then for the rest of the day his activity level goes down to either sitting around or laying around in his bunker and I cant seem to understand why so I am hoping someone can shed some light on this question, I was thinking maybe its due to the AB since I give it to him around 10 am after he has had food and water and had time to digest a bit, so could this be due to the AB??? does it cause fatigue?

here is a video of him from this morning:

https://youtu.be/JK4DrrtY3-Q

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Everyone,

Well, As of 3 days ago he has been waking up and acting totally normal, he has even started to run around again which I was so excited to see. This mornin I gave him what would be the final dose of ABs (total 7 days). My concern with him is the fact that I feel its up and down and I dont know why. for the past 3 days he would wake up, eat all his food, drink his water and run around and play for a couple hours but then for the rest of the day his activity level goes down to either sitting around or laying around in his bunker and I cant seem to understand why so I am hoping someone can shed some light on this question, I was thinking maybe its due to the AB since I give it to him around 10 am after he has had food and water and had time to digest a bit, so could this be due to the AB??? does it cause fatigue?

here is a video of him from this morning:

https://youtu.be/JK4DrrtY3-Q

Hi RamiS and thanks for the update on Moby! He looks great in the video! I'll give you a possibly answer to your question about why Moby seems so full of energy and behaves quite normally early on and then seems to become a bit fatigued as the day goes by. First of all, from my post on 4/25, when I suggested using an antibiotic (Please also consider starting the Septra or the Augmentin I sent to you. While there does not seem to be laboratory evidence of a UTI, Moby may still have an infection such as a pneumonia or a skin infection where the bump is (or elsewhere)!, it was just as I stated, there was no definitive evidence of an infection but he was "acting sick" and at that time, you had seemingly made a decision to turn your beloved Moby over to a rehab facility that I felt would have done him no good! I was as desperate as you were for Moby to get some help Moby but we just saw different options. One of the reasons that I was considering was that Moby may have had an infection that was simply not obvious such as an abscess or pneumonia as the examples I gave. I am extremely glad that you opted out of taking Moby to the rehab facility as I truly felt that this would spell his demise and I am also glad that you opted for using the antibiotics! Obviously, Moby is much improved from from how your described things on the 25th and I truly hope that whatever was going on then is truly resolving as it seems to be doing. Antibiotics have many potential "side effects" and lethargy is certainly one of the commonly recognized side effects of Septra (and many other antibiotics) as noted from data gathering from human patients and that may be why Moby's energy level seems to decline as the day goes by but another possibility is that Moby did indeed, have some sort of infection and this too, can put new limitations on available energy as Moby would be utilizing energy stores to fight the infection (should this be the case) or it may be a bit of both! There may of course, be other explanations! Right now, I'm delighted to see how active Moby is today and I interpret this as a very significant improvement!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel