Amputee with infection

[Shellysfriend]

Hello Irrel! Your leg is looking much better!

Thanks for the update Shellysfriend! Please let us know how it goes with the vet.

Also make sure to talk to him First! Ask important questions: like their policy on pet squirrels, if they have experience treating squirrels or other small rodents, if they will release him back to you etc.

I realize it is considerably expensive to do the surgery, but it will give him the best quality of life long term. StepNStone’s Annie had an amputation of her back leg, to the hip bone, done by laser surgery, and her healing was incredible, and she has lived a VERY LONG, happy, energetic, playful and full life! (You can check out her thread https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...nie-(was)-gone. Scroll to the last 8 pages or so to read about and see the before and after surgery. A VERY inspirational and hopeful story)

The possibility of a successful operation to remove the existing bone to the joint may provide the best outcome for him. Decreasing the need for repeated wound care, infections, discomfort etc. and increasing the likelihood he will adapt and learn to get around comfortably and be active. Although I’m NOT a vet. Just my thoughts.

Keep up the cuteness Irrel! ❤️

Thank you for pointing me to this story. I had to read it all. Forgive me for asking, is she still around?

[Sadachara]

I had drenched it right before the scab came off, I think he actually took the scab off himself but it was ready. Right after I saw it I soaked it again with it. Unfortunately 2 minutes doesn’t happen. Sit still when you want him to is not at all in his plans

Even short term contact will help. I'd spray it on a few times a day perhaps. Also for cleaning cages and things, this is exceedingly good - and safe. Keeping the bacterial load down on the items your little friend touches will help the process as well.

According to this study, even 60 seconds works better than anything else;

https://iovs.arvojournals.org/articl...icleid=2563856

[Tashahaven]

As far as I know…Yes she is!? But SOOOO many others on here have been around every step of the way. And know MUCH better than I do.

Hopefully they will correct me if I’m wrong/mistaken:

Sooooooo SLEEPY! Nighty night! Be back tomorrow

[Shellysfriend]

I’ve been steered away from neutering. Someone told me of a study that when done to juveniles it affects skeletal development and essentially is giving them MBD. It is definitely not worth it to me.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I’ve been steered away from neutering. Someone told me of a study that when done to juveniles it affects skeletal development and essentially is giving them MBD. It is definitely not worth it to me.

Hi Shelysfriend:
Thanks for checking this out! I just saw no definitive reason for neutering other than that Irrel will already be under anesthesia! in this as you found, there are risks; and not the least of which is that it is another surgical procedure!

Again, I would like to encourage you to discuss removal of only the remaining broken portion of the "forearm" and leave the rest of the extremity extending from the elbow upward to the shoulder and make a "stump" at the end of this (around the elbow). IMHO, I would NOT recommend removal of the entire extremity at the shoulder for several reasons; but retaining some functionality is primary and some functionality is usually far better than none at all! Conserving the remaining upper part of the extremity from the elbow to the shoulder will have some potentially very beneficial functional benefits such helping to hold and stabilize food and to assist with balance and these will most likely be of significant benefit to Irrel! In medicine, be it Veterinary or Human; a conservative approach to debridement and/or amputation is always worth seriously and conscientiously considering!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Tashahaven]

Thanks StS! You are totally right. I forgot it was the front leg. I know they often go to the hip on the rear because if not they will still try to use it and drag and injure it repeatedly. 😬🥰

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Shellysfriend:
While here at work and having a few free moments, I just thought of another possibility that could, if certain structures at the elbow region are still intact; provide even more functionality to Irrel's injured forelimb! IF it appears that the region very close to the elbow where the biceps tendon attaches to the radius (the radius is one of the forearm bones) is still intact, it may be a great option to try also to conserve whatever might be possible to conserve of the remaining forearm also as then (assuming this could be done, of course) Irrel would be able to also flex the remainder of the forearm which would further enhance functionality beyond just conserving the upper portion of the forelimb between the elbow and the shoulder! I would respectfully like to suggest that your surgeon checks out this possibility when Irrel has his appointment!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hi Shellysfriend:
While here at work and having a few free moments, I just thought of another possibility that could, if certain structures at the elbow region are still intact; provide even more functionality to Irrel's injured forelimb! IF it appears that the region very close to the elbow where the biceps tendon attaches to the radius (the radius is one of the forearm bones) is still intact, it may be a great option to try also to conserve whatever might be possible to conserve of the remaining forearm also as then (assuming this could be done, of course) Irrel would be able to also flex the remainder of the forearm which would further enhance functionality beyond just conserving the upper portion of the forelimb between the elbow and the shoulder! I would respectfully like to suggest that your surgeon checks out this possibility when Irrel has his appointment!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Hi Sam the Squirrel, tomorrow is when our appointment is. But beforehand I want to speak with the actual vet themselves to make sure we are on the same page, think we are but… We’ll have to start with seeing if the bone is healthy and what is left that is good and can be worked with. They made it sound like surgery could happen pretty fast, but I want to meet them, have them examine him, and feel out the situation before I commit to anything. I kind of want to hear their unguided opinion before I make too many suggestions or ask too many questions. But then I will certainly ask away! This has been quite the ordeal, I hope for Irrel’s sake that this works out and gets resolved soon and that this hasn’t drawn on to long. Before the infection things looked so good, and it’s not terrible now but I just hope that I didn’t cause any extra by waiting too long. Irrel and I would like to thank everyone that has contributed here and ALL suggestions, popular or not! He’s my not as little as he was trooper!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Sam the Squirrel, tomorrow is when our appointment is. But beforehand I want to speak with the actual vet themselves to make sure we are on the same page, think we are but… We’ll have to start with seeing if the bone is healthy and what is left that is good and can be worked with. They made it sound like surgery could happen pretty fast, but I want to meet them, have them examine him, and feel out the situation before I commit to anything. I kind of want to hear their unguided opinion before I make too many suggestions or ask too many questions. But then I will certainly ask away! This has been quite the ordeal, I hope for Irrel’s sake that this works out and gets resolved soon and that this hasn’t drawn on to long. Before the infection things looked so good, and it’s not terrible now but I just hope that I didn’t cause any extra by waiting too long. Irrel and I would like to thank everyone that has contributed here and ALL suggestions, popular or not! He’s my not as little as he was trooper!

Hi Shellysfriend and thanks for posting the great news! Imho, you have the right strategy in talking with the actual Vet and getting his suggestions and recommendations and please also thoroughly interview him as well! You do have the right and physicians, both for humans and animals expect that the patient/client will be an partner in formulating a treatment plan based upon as clear and definitive a diagnosis as is possible!

Thanks also for the photo of handsome little Irrel. He looks great! Please let us know what transpired tomorrow and please keep on updating Irrel's thread!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Irrel says hi everyone! Things went pretty good at the doctors today. They tried to get some X-rays but Irrel didn’t want his picture taken. We are scheduled for a closer exam next week as they want to put him under so they can get the X-rays and manipulate the area and see what they’re working with. If needed at that time while he’s under we can go deeper. Our discussion ranged from doing nothing to removing the forearm at the elbow and anything in between. X-rays should answer quite a bit but unfortunately if surgery is required the whole answer might not be available until you’re there. Part of the delay is to put him under they weren’t exactly sure on best practices for squirrels. They want to do some checking/ asking. One of the people I believe they were going to ask happens to be who sent me there! At least visually they thought the infection is at bay for now but obviously we don’t know if it’s in the bone or the full extent either. We have discontinued the antibiotics but are continuing the probiotics for another week. They said to continue treatment topically as we are.
The subject of neutering was brought up and when I explained a few reasons why I didn’t want to they were very open and agreeable. They did say that premature spaying and neutering even in cats and dogs leads to a lot of problems later, and it’s still done regularly almost industry wide!
After about 15 minutes of being home he was still glued to the back corner of his carrier. I pried him out and put him on his jungle gym tree and he went back to his old self pretty quickly. I kind of figured he’d be trying harder than usual to put squirrel droppings in dads coffee for a while!
I’m watching his weight also. The last 3 days he’s been stuck at 606~605 grams. He’s never gone more than a day without gaining which I could never say wasn’t possibly a weighing error or just a downer day. His formula feedings are a little up and down lately but he is eating homemade HHB and some veggies. Hes still super active so I think he’s alright though.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Irrel says hi everyone! Things went pretty good at the doctors today. They tried to get some X-rays but Irrel didn’t want his picture taken. We are scheduled for a closer exam next week as they want to put him under so they can get the X-rays and manipulate the area and see what they’re working with. If needed at that time while he’s under we can go deeper. Our discussion ranged from doing nothing to removing the forearm at the elbow and anything in between. X-rays should answer quite a bit but unfortunately if surgery is required the whole answer might not be available until you’re there. Part of the delay is to put him under they weren’t exactly sure on best practices for squirrels. They want to do some checking/ asking. One of the people I believe they were going to ask happens to be who sent me there! At least visually they thought the infection is at bay for now but obviously we don’t know if it’s in the bone or the full extent either. We have discontinued the antibiotics but are continuing the probiotics for another week. They said to continue treatment topically as we are.
The subject of neutering was brought up and when I explained a few reasons why I didn’t want to they were very open and agreeable. They did say that premature spaying and neutering even in cats and dogs leads to a lot of problems later, and it’s still done regularly almost industry wide!
After about 15 minutes of being home he was still glued to the back corner of his carrier. I pried him out and put him on his jungle gym tree and he went back to his old self pretty quickly. I kind of figured he’d be trying harder than usual to put squirrel droppings in dads coffee for a while!
I’m watching his weight also. The last 3 days he’s been stuck at 606~605 grams. He’s never gone more than a day without gaining which I could never say wasn’t possibly a weighing error or just a downer day. His formula feedings are a little up and down lately but he is eating homemade HHB and some veggies. Hes still super active so I think he’s alright though.

Hello to you, Irrel! You are a loved little Squirrel! And hello again to you, Shellysfriend! Your comments regarding Irrel's Vet sound very encouraging. I'm glad the neutering issue has been put to rest! An inhaled anesthetic agent such as isoflurane is commonly used to sedate Squirrels (and many other species) so that a more complex or potentially uncomfortable exam can be facilitated. Most likely your Vet uses a digital x-ray machine and if so, would you please post Irrel's x-ray films on this thread. The digital films can be uploaded very easily. They would be very interesting! I'm sure that the visit was stressful for Irrel and I'm glad he returned to his "old self" shortly after arriving home! You mentioned "homemade" HHB. What are those or are you using the recipe that Henry's provides for making blocks?

Thanks again for your love and conscientious care of little Irrel!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hello to you, Irrel! You are a loved little Squirrel! And hello again to you, Shellysfriend! Your comments regarding Irrel's Vet sound very encouraging. I'm glad the neutering issue has been put to rest! An inhaled anesthetic agent such as isoflurane is commonly used to sedate Squirrels (and many other species) so that a more complex or potentially uncomfortable exam can be facilitated. Most likely your Vet uses a digital x-ray machine and if so, would you please post Irrel's x-ray films on this thread. The digital films can be uploaded very easily. They would be very interesting! I'm sure that the visit was stressful for Irrel and I'm glad he returned to his "old self" shortly after arriving home! You mentioned "homemade" HHB. What are those or are you using the recipe that Henry's provides for making blocks?

Thanks again for your love and conscientious care of little Irrel!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I certainly will post the X-ray if I can. The best I can tell it’s the Henry’s recipe, however I don’t believe they post it anymore. I will type that up later today when I have more time.
Right now I do have a question/ problem. I’m going to have a couple days where I will be out of 20/50. He’s on 50/50 Esbilac dry(not goat) and 20/50. I’ve seen about using heavy whipping cream( not the ice cream topping) and or yogurt. Or I’ve got 32/40 from some rehab bunnies that I’m aware is not the proper formulation however I do have whey protein from Henry’s. Could the 32/40 be supplemented with the whey protein for temporary use? Just trying to keep him as close to possible diet wise as where he’s been. He did have weight gain again this morning.

[CritterMom]

It isn't so much the formulation with the fat/protein ratio; it is that the protein source they chose to use in the 32/40 (casein) is very difficult for the little babies, for which is is supposedly formulated (supposed to be newborn through 4 weeks) to digest. I have horrible memories of the board being flooded with people from all over watching their little babies die from terrible bloat from the stuff. It got to the point where we actually, with the help from one of the rehabbers on the board, developed a protocol to try to save the ones whose finders came here soon enough.

I don't think that older babies would not be affected this way, and I can also tell you that there are rehabbers out there who use the 32/40 for their pinkies and swear they have never seen a problem. In my book, I am not capable of holding the hand of dozens and dozens of people watching their little scrap of life die from the food they gave them and then brush it off. I will feed 32/40 to a pinkie when h*ll freezes over.

But Irrel is not a baby - he is a big chunk of a boy and my first suggestion would be to change the formula to where instead of 50/50, it is about 75% Esbilac and 25% a mixture of the 20/50 you have left and the 32/40. He will then be getting very little of the 32/40, and as I said, the babies having issues with it were TEENY.

And yes, you can boost the formula with EITHER Fox Valley Ultraboost, or the addition of heavy cream and whole milk (full fat) yogurt. Like any other dietary change, you want to make the additions slowly. So you are currently mixing 2 parts water and 1 part powder to make the formula. The maximum of add ins would be 1 part heavy cream and 1/2 part yogurt - but that is something you would work up to SLOWLY. If you do this, by all means, get a flavored yogurt! I always used Stoneyfield Yobaby. It is made for infants, has no fruit lumps (don't go through syringe), is full fat, and tastes good. Vanilla was popular, as was blueberry but I never found a flavor the baby didn't like. And once you get your shipment of 20/50, you can continue to boost it if you like.

[Shellysfriend]

It isn't so much the formulation with the fat/protein ratio; it is that the protein source they chose to use in the 32/40 (casein) is very difficult for the little babies, for which is is supposedly formulated (supposed to be newborn through 4 weeks) to digest. I have horrible memories of the board being flooded with people from all over watching their little babies die from terrible bloat from the stuff. It got to the point where we actually, with the help from one of the rehabbers on the board, developed a protocol to try to save the ones whose finders came here soon enough.

I don't think that older babies would not be affected this way, and I can also tell you that there are rehabbers out there who use the 32/40 for their pinkies and swear they have never seen a problem. In my book, I am not capable of holding the hand of dozens and dozens of people watching their little scrap of life die from the food they gave them and then brush it off. I will feed 32/40 to a pinkie when h*ll freezes over.

But Irrel is not a baby - he is a big chunk of a boy and my first suggestion would be to change the formula to where instead of 50/50, it is about 75% Esbilac and 25% a mixture of the 20/50 you have left and the 32/40. He will then be getting very little of the 32/40, and as I said, the babies having issues with it were TEENY.

And yes, you can boost the formula with EITHER Fox Valley Ultraboost, or the addition of heavy cream and whole milk (full fat) yogurt. Like any other dietary change, you want to make the additions slowly. So you are currently mixing 2 parts water and 1 part powder to make the formula. The maximum of add ins would be 1 part heavy cream and 1/2 part yogurt - but that is something you would work up to SLOWLY. If you do this, by all means, get a flavored yogurt! I always used Stoneyfield Yobaby. It is made for infants, has no fruit lumps (don't go through syringe), is full fat, and tastes good. Vanilla was popular, as was blueberry but I never found a flavor the baby didn't like. And once you get your shipment of 20/50, you can continue to boost it if you like.

Thank you Crittermom! Will do. Thank you for the explanation on 32/40 also. Apparently my brain wasn’t functioning anyway as I think I had the protein/fat ratio backwards as the 20/50 would be less protein more fat anyway.

[Shellysfriend]

The recipe that I’ve been using is:
3 cups nuts
150 grams whey protein isolate(from Henry’s)
3 eggs
2/3 cup ground rodent block(I’ve been using Mazuri)
2 tsp vanilla
2 tsp aluminum free baking powder
33 grams of Henry’s Healthy Vitamins
It calls for 1-2 tablespoons of water however I usually grind up a cup or so of vegetables and maybe a little apple or banana and use that as the liquid. In the event I get it too wet I just add a little more ground rodent block or wheat flour.
For the wilds I usually add some sunflower kernels, coconut, they love cherries too but for Irrel I haven’t really been modifying much though.
I bake at 205 for 90 minutes and then drizzle and spread some melted coconut oil over it.
Cool, use a pizza cutter to slice and then freeze.

[Shellysfriend]

These are this morning. I’m not sure but the area is almost looking more filled out. Hopefully it isn’t more infection. When I apply light pressure he doesn’t complain so I think it’s ok yet. He’s gaining weight and is himself. I’m still keeping up with the topical hypochlorous. The 20/50 did show up and if things were normal I’m not sure I’d need to continue boosting his formula with yogurt and heavy whipping cream, however I plan on continuing at a low rate just to make sure he’s in prime shape for his exam and possible surgery next week.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

These are this morning. I’m not sure but the area is almost looking more filled out. Hopefully it isn’t more infection. When I apply light pressure he doesn’t complain so I think it’s ok yet. He’s gaining weight and is himself. I’m still keeping up with the topical hypochlorous. The 20/50 did show up and if things were normal I’m not sure I’d need to continue boosting his formula with yogurt and heavy whipping cream, however I plan on continuing at a low rate just to make sure he’s in prime shape for his exam and possible surgery next week.

Thanks for the update on Irrel! The injury site looks very good! Great job! Please keep on with the updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Well, I guess not so good. It is still infected. I just held it drain again. I’m pretty mad at myself because I didn’t think to take a sample until it was too late. I only got a tiny amount when I tried again to possibly get a sample. I’ll call the vet tomorrow. I have an appointment next Wednesday but suddenly that feels an awful long ways away.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Well, I guess not so good. It is still infected. I just held it drain again. I’m pretty mad at myself because I didn’t think to take a sample until it was too late. I only got a tiny amount when I tried again to possibly get a sample. I’ll call the vet tomorrow. I have an appointment next Wednesday but suddenly that feels an awful long ways away.

Hi Shellysfriend:
I believe that your plan for notifying the Vet tomorrow is the best way to initially address this issue! Just to mention this however; not all drainage has the same implications and more to the point, not all drainage is a sign of infection. Pus, which is classically whitish (can also be more yellow or even brownish), cloudy, usually somewhat thick and often has a "bad" odor and is typical of an infection. There can be other types of drainage including Sanguinous drainage which is bloody or blood tinged drainage and Serous Drainage which is clear and is often somewhat faintly yellowish. Serous drainage is usually associated with the healing process and in itself, is not a sign of infection! Serous drainage can also be found mixed with blood which is call serosanguinous drainage. The presence of blood or blood mixed with serous fluid from a wound site is commonly found in relatively acute wounds or may be found anew if there is further injury to a once healing and stable injury.

What was the appearance of the drainage you noticed at Irrels wound site? Was it clear, cloudy, bloody or whatever? Did it have an odor? Ordinarily we would be asking if you had any other antibiotics beside the SMZ-TMP that was being given to Irrel but you have the rare advantage of having a Vet for your Squirrel and your Vet will hopefully be able to provide antibiotics for you IF the drainage suggests infection! Also, if antibiotics are warranted, the antibiotics will still need to be diluted and prepared in an appropriate concentration for a relatively tiny Squirrel and most Vets don't do this "in-house" and it would be up to a pharmacy to prepare this and not all pharmacies are able to so. If your Vet is experienced in the dilution and dosing of medication for Squirrels or pet rats, he may simply give you a prescription for one or two antibiotic tablets (I would recommend at least two or three tablets or capsules so you will have a "backup") with mixing and dosing instructions. Also, our Admins here on TSB are very familiar with mixing and dosing many common antibiotics and most likely they could be of great help you with this if needed!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hi Shellysfriend:
I believe that your plan for notifying the Vet tomorrow is the best way to initially address this issue! Just to mention this however; not all drainage has the same implications and more to the point, not all drainage is a sign of infection. Pus, which is classically whitish (can also be more yellow or even brownish), cloudy, usually somewhat thick and often has a "bad" odor and is typical of an infection. There can be other types of drainage including Sanguinous drainage which is bloody or blood tinged drainage and Serous Drainage which is clear and is often somewhat faintly yellowish. Serous drainage is usually associated with the healing process and in itself, is not a sign of infection! Serous drainage can also be found mixed with blood which is call serosanguinous drainage. The presence of blood or blood mixed with serous fluid from a wound site is commonly found in relatively acute wounds or may be found anew if there is further injury to a once healing and stable injury.

What was the appearance of the drainage you noticed at Irrels wound site? Was it clear, cloudy, bloody or whatever? Did it have an odor? Ordinarily we would be asking if you had any other antibiotics beside the SMZ-TMP that was being given to Irrel but you have the rare advantage of having a Vet for your Squirrel and your Vet will hopefully be able to provide antibiotics for you IF the drainage suggests infection! Also, if antibiotics are warranted, the antibiotics will still need to be diluted and prepared in an appropriate concentration for a relatively tiny Squirrel and most Vets don't do this "in-house" and it would be up to a pharmacy to prepare this and not all pharmacies are able to so. If your Vet is experienced in the dilution and dosing of medication for Squirrels or pet rats, he may simply give you a prescription for one or two antibiotic tablets (I would recommend at least two or three tablets or capsules so you will have a "backup") with mixing and dosing instructions. Also, our Admins here on TSB are very familiar with mixing and dosing many common antibiotics and most likely they could be of great help you with this if needed!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Hi Sam the Squirrel, it was unfortunately thick white puss, just like the last time. I got quite a bit out, not as much as a couple weeks ago but still quite a bit. I thought of it too late but with a sample they can do a test to determine which antibiotic is most effective. I got a tiny amount after I thought of it but I’m not sure it is enough.