Continued transition issues with FV 20/50

[Tango]

Has anyone else had issues with transitioning from Esbilac to FV 20/50 with a 6wk old grey (Lola)? Everytime I move up from a 50/50 mix to 3cc FV with 2cc Esbilac, Lola gets extremely constipated. Suggestion on what to do? The 50/50 mix causes very loose stools, any more Esbilac than that and she has full blown diarrhea. I have worked my way up to 3cc FV/2cc Esbilac twice now, but she gets so constipated I have to move back down to the 50/50 mix. I am hydrating between feedings with the sugar/salt mixture. Should I dilute this? She really does not appear to be dehydrated, but she refuses to drink plain water. Thanks for your help!

[Spanky]

Has anyone else had issues with transitioning from Esbilac to FV 20/50 with a 6wk old grey (Lola)? Everytime I move up from a 50/50 mix to 3cc FV with 2cc Esbilac, Lola gets extremely constipated. Suggestion on what to do? The 50/50 mix causes very loose stools, any more Esbilac than that and she has full blown diarrhea. I have worked my way up to 3cc FV/2cc Esbilac twice now, but she gets so constipated I have to move back down to the 50/50 mix. I am hydrating between feedings with the sugar/salt mixture. Should I dilute this? She really does not appear to be dehydrated, but she refuses to drink plain water. Thanks for your help!

I am a little confused that she is transitioning from Esbilac to FV 20/50 but gets diarrhea by a mixture with more Esbilac than FV: Was she previously on just Esbilac?

It would be helpful to elaborate on how long it took (takes?) for her to go from diarrhea to constipation. What color is the diarrhea?

I use Esbilac up until about 3.5 weeks then use the half Esbilac and half FV 20/50 form then until wean with no issues.

Please share her weight, how much does she eat each feeding and how frequently does she get formula?

Has she started eating rodent block (or other solids) yet?

Formula hygiene reminders: The powder should be stored in the freezer (fridge minimally) after opening or it can go rancid quickly. Mix the formula up several hours before using it, stirring/mixing/shaking to allow it to more fully dissolve and be more digestible (especially important with pinkies). Never use pedialyte to mix formula (or mix pedialyte into the formula)... use only plain water (tap or bottled, never distilled) to make up the formula. Discard any formula that was warmed up for feeding and not used... this can cause everything form bloat to diarrhea to constipation. Mixed formula should be stored in the fridge and discarded after about 3 days.

I would remove the salt from the hydration fluid and use just enough sugar or honey so she'll take the hydration. Salt formulation hydration should not be used continuously for more than about 24 hours.

[Mel1959]

So let me see if I understand what you’re saying. If you feed her a 50/50 mix of Esbilac and Fox Valley she has full blown diarrhea? But if you increase the ratio to a 2ml/3ml mixture of Esbilac to Fox Valley she’s constipated? I have never heard of this happening. I hope others will respond with their thoughts. It shouldn’t make any difference but when I’m transitioning from one formula to another I load each syringe with the appropriate amount of each formula…..so the squirrel gets both formulas mixed together. FV formula is richer than Esbilac so try diluting the FV with a little extra water. You are mixing each formula separately and then using the appropriate amounts, right? Both cans of powdered formula have been stored in the freezer or refrigerator, right?

[Tango]

To elaborate...I've had Lola for 12 days. Initially I rehydrated with Pedialyte and slowly started her on Esbilac. She had loose stools from the start with the Esbilac, which turned in to outright diarrhea, yellow in color. When she was on only the Esbilac, I started slowly and was diluting it. Before, the FV arrived on day 6, she had only been on full strength Esbilac for a couple of feedings because of the diarrhea. I was having to hydrate her with water between feedings. I started the transition slowly as recommended. The diarrhea improved after the first feeding with the FV/Esbilac mix (25/75). I then moved her to a 50/50 mix, and she was still having loose stools. By the third day from starting the FV/Esbilac mix, she was taking 75%FV/25%Esbilac. She became severely constipated after 3 feedings at that strength. I resolved the problem by hydrating with Pedialyte and stopping formula for approx. 5-8 hrs. Her bowels moved after that and I thought everything was fine. I started her back on 50/50 mix of the two formulas and her stools became more loose. I went ahead and increased to 3cc's FV and 2ccs Esb Wednesday evening (5/3/23) and as of Thursday afternoon, no stool again. I kept feeding her and hydrating with the homemade rehydration formula, and even gave her fluids in the middle of the night. No results. I fed her this morning with a 50/50 mix of formula, and just now gave her sugar water (without the salt). She has been eating about 1/4 of a Zupreem block per day. She has the Mazuri rodent block also available, but she won't eat it. Upon arrival she weighed 87g. This morning she weighed 111. She eats 5cc every 4.5 -5 hrs. She refuses plain water. I keep my formula in the refrigerator, I can move both to the freezer if that is advised. I mix up a new batch of both, every 24 hours. I also do usually mix it up a few hours before feeding. She hasn't been on the 50/50 mix very long since the last constipation issue was resolved. But if once her bowels start moving again, what should I do if the 50/50 mix causes loose stools again? How much sugar water should I give her at a time if her belly seems full? Her belly is still semi "full" but soft. What about switching to GMF? I could get the pasteurized goat milk. Would that provide the necessary nutrients she needs? Thanks

[Spanky]

At 6 weeks old she should be defecating on her own... can you be more specific about what severely constipated means exactly: How long did she go without pooping and are you certain she did not poop in her cage on her own?

Also in the mix is her eating the Zupreem block if she started eating that around the same time as the transitioning.

If she has been getting Pedialyte (hydration with salt) all this time, that may well be the problem as well. It is easy to over-load them with salt and throw off their systems, especially the Pedialyte for humans which has a lot of salt when dealing with baby squirrels. Salts in hydration solution should be stopped after about 24 hours (this is just a reminder to all reading). If hydration is needed, continue with plain water or sugar water (just enough so they will take it... too much sugar can cause diarrhea).

Just to confirm you are using the Esbilac powder and not the liquid. The liquid in the can version is not the same and almost always causes diarrhea.

I'd use the mixture of formula you have the best success with currently over the next day or day and a half, using unsalted hydration solution if hydration is needed, to let her body eliminate the extra salts IF (in case?) salts have built up in her system Then try to progress the transition after that period of time.

[Mel1959]

And to reiterate what Spanky said….too much sugar in the water can cause diarrhea.

[Tango]

My definition of severely constipated is that she had not had a stool for almost 24 hours, her belly was full, and she appeared uncomfortable. She had been having some sort of stool after every feeding prior to this occurrence. I am positive she did not have a stool in her cage. I purposefully use white flannel bedding and change it everyday.

As far as the Zupreem, can the introduction of solids cause constipation? Is this not a good source of food for her? Do you have recommendations for the best block type foods to start them on? I want her to get used to this type of food before I introduce anything else.

The Pedialyte has never been given more than 24 hours at a time. She initially would take water, but she refuses now. That is why I went to the rehydration formula, not knowing the small amount of salt in it could cause a problem. It was my understanding from everything I've read, that you weren't supposed to give the Pedialyte over 24 hours but the homemade recipe with water, sugar and salt was okay because the salt content was so much less than the Pedialyte.

In regards to the formula, I am using the powdered form of the Esbilac with the white puppy on the label. If I can't find a happy medium with the two formulas, (possibly because I just happen that have that one in a million squirrel that can't tolerate either due to diarrhea from one and constipation from the other), what about the goat's milk formula? Does it not provide enough of the essential nutrients to sustain her through weaning? Is it only good to use short term?

Have you heard of anyone else complaining about the FV 20/50 formula causing constipation, or is there always an underlying cause not related to the formula itself?

How long do you think it should take to clear salt out of such a tiny body?

Lastly, do you have any recommendations for a transitional cage besides the Critter Nation? Lola is getting bigger and likes to play. I think she would enjoy climbing on things, but I don't want to put her in too big of an enclosure until she is older. I was thinking maybe a medium sized bird cage or something like that. She also is still using the heating pad, although she does seem to be beginning to not need it as much, ie: sometimes sleeping on top of her blankets instead of under them. I didn't know if a wire type cage would be to "open" for a baby this size.

Thank you so much for your expertise!

[Spanky]

As far as the Zupreem, can the introduction of solids cause constipation? Is this not a good source of food for her? Do you have recommendations for the best block type foods to start them on? I want her to get used to this type of food before I introduce anything else.

The Zupreem and the Mazuri are both good block for squirrels, but it needs to be 80% of the solid foods diet as they get more solids. What I meant was the introduction of solid food, just like any changes in diet, can cause changes in their systems including diarrhea, constipation and the like. And part of the reason I mentioned it was because it may represent an additional variable to the formula transition.

Zupreem and Mazuri are both good, high quality blocks; these are staple blocks and need to be the lion share of what they eat after weaning. I prefer Henry's Healthy Block (HHB), which is a supplement block and they need only eat 2 - 3 blocks a day wand the rest is healthy veggies and fruits, with maybe a less healthy snack here and there. Both options are good.

In regards to the formula, I am using the powdered form of the Esbilac with the white puppy on the label. If I can't find a happy medium with the two formulas, (possibly because I just happen that have that one in a million squirrel that can't tolerate either due to diarrhea from one and constipation from the other), what about the goat's milk formula? Does it not provide enough of the essential nutrients to sustain her through weaning? Is it only good to use short term?

Have you heard of anyone else complaining about the FV 20/50 formula causing constipation, or is there always an underlying cause not related to the formula itself?

Thanks for confirming the Esbilac is the powdered. The manufacturer has switched the label from the all white puppy to a brown & white puppy (image below) so if the can you have has an all white puppy I would check to make sure it is not expired / old. There have been problems with the Fox Valley 32/40 and constipation, especially in pinkies which is why many of us will not use it at all. But constipation and Fox Valley 20/50 is not a thing. I have not raised a million squirrels, but many hundreds and I have not had any that did not tolerate the Esbilac or FV 20/50.

How long do you think it should take to clear salt out of such a tiny body?

After a day or so it should not be a factor.

Lastly, do you have any recommendations for a transitional cage besides the Critter Nation? Lola is getting bigger and likes to play. I think she would enjoy climbing on things, but I don't want to put her in too big of an enclosure until she is older. I was thinking maybe a medium sized bird cage or something like that. She also is still using the heating pad, although she does seem to be beginning to not need it as much, ie: sometimes sleeping on top of her blankets instead of under them. I didn't know if a wire type cage would be to "open" for a baby this size.

Thank you so much for your expertise!

If you have a Critter Nation, you can place the lower level pan in the top level to close off the lower level and let her have the one level. That should be good for a 6 week old. A juvenile cage (in between a bin and a Critter Nation type cage) is a "luxury IMO because they are in there a short time. These ware cages I like and they used to be economical but I see they are nearly double what I paid the last time I bought one!
https://www.chewy.com/ware-chew-proo...kaAmjvEALw_wcB

The Pedialyte has never been given more than 24 hours at a time. She initially would take water, but she refuses now. That is why I went to the rehydration formula, not knowing the small amount of salt in it could cause a problem. It was my understanding from everything I've read, that you weren't supposed to give the Pedialyte over 24 hours but the homemade recipe with water, sugar and salt was okay because the salt content was so much less than the Pedialyte.

Using the salt and sugar hydration... whether the homemade or store Pedialyte.. is used initially on intake, and in cases of sever hydration, to get them "over the hump"... and once the hump (or first day) has passed. Salts in the tissue help the body retain fluids in the tissue but is not necessary after the initial replenishment of salts. Plain water should suffice for hydration after that initial period. Adding a bit of sugar (or molasses or honey) may be needed to get those that are unwilling to take plain water interested in drinking the water.

My definition of severely constipated is that she had not had a stool for almost 24 hours, her belly was full, and she appeared uncomfortable. She had been having some sort of stool after every feeding prior to this occurrence. I am positive she did not have a stool in her cage. I purposefully use white flannel bedding and change it everyday.

I left for last since this is the crux of the problem at hand.. getting her eating formula and not having diarrhea or constipation.

I'd personally not be too concerned about a 24 hour period of not pooping, but the part of about being uncomfortable is worrisome. We don't want her to be in distress for sure. I have to say, I have seen too often that we people sometimes are quick to make changes at the slightest hint of an issue.. then make another change if we perceive the possibility of another issue popping up. These too quick of changes sometimes can have adverse affects on these little ones and get them stuck in diarrhea to constipation and back and forth again cycle. In my experience, if I am not consistent it throws them off and I have to spend lots of extra time and energy restoring the consistency and getting them back on track... it happens to most if not all of us at some time.

Reading back over the thread, it seems she was never really on "full strength" formula at all other than a couple feedings before the transition started. And it seems the transition was with full strength formula, even though it was half Esbilac and half Fox Valley. If it has been nearly 2 weeks and she's only ever had diluted formula with the exception of a couple feedings her system probably has never adjusted to full strength formula but perhaps has adjusted to watered down / diluted formula. Her weight gain has not been very good over that period either and that may be explained by the diluted formula... depending on how diluted the formula was (diluted formula = diluted nutrition).
Many of of use Fox Valley Ultraboost added to the formula to increase weight gain (some use it with all their babies). A 6 week old this weight I would be feedings at least 1 time overnight (getting in 5 feedings a day).

I have posted often that sometimes less is more... less changes can be more beneficial.

Here is my suggestion... I would stick with the half Esbilac and half Fox Valley combo, but start with 1 part Esbilac, 1 Part FV and 1 part water to dilute. Feed that every ~5 hours for 3 feedings. Then use 1 part Esbilac, 1 part FV and 1/2 part water for 3 - 4 feedings. Then move to 1 part Esbilac, 1 part FV and stay the course for 4 - 5 feedings. I would include a night feeding for a while and offer 1 - 3ml of water (or sugar water) 2 - 3 hours after each feeding. Stick with this for 3 days and see how it goes.

[Mel1959]

So, after Spanky’ detailed plan of action, how’s this baby doing? Are the bowels stabilized, with neither diarrhea or constipation?

[Tashahaven]

I TOO am curious about this?!?

Bow has your squirrel been doing??

[Creatureluvr]

I am curious about the question "does homemade goat milk formula provide enough nutrition for a squirrel until being weaned?" I ordered FV 32/40 & 20/50 which should arrive in 3 days. I estimate my guy is 8 days old and should received the FV formula on his 11th day. He has been thriving on the GMF and now I'm nervous about changing to one of the FV powders after reading many threads about issues these babies are having. I only have one little guy and want to do everything right for him.

So, "is the GMF nutritionally complete enough to keep him on it until weaning? If not, can I mix in 50/50 FV formulas into my GMF?

Thank you all for providing this amazing board.

[Mel1959]

The answer to your question about the GMF providing enough nutrition is a big “NO”. GMF is a temporary formula for that very reason. With that said it is not recommended to use the FV 32/40. There have been multiple incidents where it turns to sludge in their intestines….and then there are others that have zero issues with it. I have never used it. The safe alternative is to get the powdered Esbilac formula. The can you want has either a white puppy on it or a Burnese mountain dog puppy. This formula is widely used for baby squirrels under 4 weeks old. You can order it online (cheapest) or purchase at some big box pet stores, feed stores or Tractor Supply stores.

Anytime you’re introducing a new formula you want to do it slowly to avoid any intestinal upset. Begin by mixing each formula (GMF and Esbilac) up separately according to directions. Then when feeding begin with 75% of the syringe filled with GMF and 25% with Esbilac. Feed like this for several feedings. Then load the syringe with a 50/50 mix for several feedings and finally 100% Esbilac. Many folks use Esbilac till weaning or what I prefer is a 50/50 combo of Esbilac and FV 20/50. Again, when introducing the FV do it slowly following the same procedure.

Best of luck. Any other questions or concerns, please ask.

[Creatureluvr]

The answer to your question about the GMF providing enough nutrition is a big “NO”. GMF is a temporary formula for that very reason. With that said it is not recommended to use the FV 32/40. There have been multiple incidents where it turns to sludge in their intestines….and then there are others that have zero issues with it. I have never used it. The safe alternative is to get the powdered Esbilac formula. The can you want has either a white puppy on it or a Burnese mountain dog puppy. This formula is widely used for baby squirrels under 4 weeks old. You can order it online (cheapest) or purchase at some big box pet stores, feed stores or Tractor Supply stores.

Anytime you’re introducing a new formula you want to do it slowly to avoid any intestinal upset. Begin by mixing each formula (GMF and Esbilac) up separately according to directions. Then when feeding begin with 75% of the syringe filled with GMF and 25% with Esbilac. Feed like this for several feedings. Then load the syringe with a 50/50 mix for several feedings and finally 100% Esbilac. Many folks use Esbilac till weaning or what I prefer is a 50/50 combo of Esbilac and FV 20/50. Again, when introducing the FV do it slowly following the same procedure.

Best of luck. Any other questions or concerns, please ask.

Not sure if this is posting right, but THANK YOU so much. I already have the Esbilac and will start the slow transition tomorrow since he is 10 days old +/- 1 day. So glad I found this board and the many threads about the issues with FV 32/40. I will be returning it for sure.

[Creatureluvr]

The answer to your question about the GMF providing enough nutrition is a big “NO”. GMF is a temporary formula for that very reason. With that said it is not recommended to use the FV 32/40. There have been multiple incidents where it turns to sludge in their intestines….and then there are others that have zero issues with it. I have never used it. The safe alternative is to get the powdered Esbilac formula. The can you want has either a white puppy on it or a Burnese mountain dog puppy. This formula is widely used for baby squirrels under 4 weeks old. You can order it online (cheapest) or purchase at some big box pet stores, feed stores or Tractor Supply stores.

Anytime you’re introducing a new formula you want to do it slowly to avoid any intestinal upset. Begin by mixing each formula (GMF and Esbilac) up separately according to directions. Then when feeding begin with 75% of the syringe filled with GMF and 25% with Esbilac. Feed like this for several feedings. Then load the syringe with a 50/50 mix for several feedings and finally 100% Esbilac. Many folks use Esbilac till weaning or what I prefer is a 50/50 combo of Esbilac and FV 20/50. Again, when introducing the FV do it slowly following the same procedure.

Best of luck. Any other questions or concerns, please ask.

He has transitioned to the Esbilac Puppy formula perfectly so far. I never even opened the bag of FV 32/50 when it arrived right on time. I did add one tablespoon of heavy whipping cream to the puppy formula. I read somewhere on this board it was fine to do this. I am waiting on my FV 20/50, but have plenty of time since he's estimated to be 13 days old. He seems to be thriving well. Thank you for your advice! Any other advice is always welcome.