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Thread: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

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    Exclamation NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    So after much research / reading etc I strongly feel Bunch has an Ondontoma!
    a little background.......
    I have posted in regards to Bunch before he has had an ongoing issue for about a year now with his mouth, I had previously treated with Clindamycin & he seemed to improve , I was unable to bring him to a vet until recently Thanks to SammysMom !!! Bunch's symptoms have been about the same Lethargy,sleeping more weight loss, loss of appetite , runny eye, more just his right eye, licking his ,lips pawing at his mouth , nasal issues
    it would come and go with the help of antibiotics but more or less dormant never gone. i got him to his 1 vet appt nov 3 i thought his tooth had abscessed , ....now bunch has always had perfect teeth never needed trimming nothing a nice orange color.
    Also Bunch has his own room, so he is never caged! So nothing was caused by injury / cage chewing etc
    This vet i dont believe has much experience with squirrels....but i cannot thank enough access to a vet!!! I will post the picture of Bunches mouth for you guys to see.
    so upon seeing inside clearly without bunch protesting , it appears his top tooth has started to grow backwards into the roof of his mouth ` I was blown away , also as you will see there was some black/white stuff on the tooth, the vet didnt know what it was, bunch has a fowl odor in his mouth, to me smelling of infection , the vet said he didnt see infection it was probably dead skin from what was going on with the tooth ....Now i feel after all my research, that is dental disease! and the ondontoma is in his front tooth, possibly caused by dental disease , also we didnt get into his cheek teeth/molars but with my reading it seems they think the dental disease generally starts with the cheek teeth/molars but not discovered until it reaches teeth you can see easily???
    so the vet trimmed his top tooth , i expressed concern about his runny eye nose etc, he put some cream on his eye said any issues bring him back, no antibiotics , which i should have spoken up now that i look back, as i said he isn't a squirrel vet, so i feel maybe he was relying on me, but i was him, so his vet appointment is tomorrow @2 i am getting a head x-ray and going to request bloodwork to see what is going on, i also think he needs antibiotics , which i will post results
    I need help with what steps to take from here, needing advice as i just started learning about all this, best antibiotic, any supplements , food cuz bunch is eating mostly avacado right now and some of his henry block, i think he is feeling the pain. I dont want to lose Bunch , hes fighting ! I want to give him all the tools to recover! I have a strong feeling with his symptoms Ondontoma , to me a perfectly healthy tooth doesnt just start to grow into the roof of a mouth for no reason, I had read this is one of the symptoms , to me that was the nail in the coffin so to speak.
    So please any help, direction , guidance, etc
    Bunch is 7/8 yrs old and was in perfect health, please help me help him!
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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    The tooth growing into the roof of his mouth (I do not see this in the pic so I assume this is after the tooth trimming?) is typically a sign of a malocclusion in which the lower and upper incisors do not come together and grind one another down. Squirrel incisors grow like hairs (continuously) and need to be ground down to prevent them growing into the roofs of their moths etc. The pic does not show the lower incisors either, a pic of that would be most helpful.

    The X-Rays are definitely needed and if your vet is unsure I would get a copy of the images and ask Dr Emerson @ Ravenwood Clinic in FL for a consult. X-Rays are the only way to diagnose odontomas. If that is what it is then surgery is required, and I suggest you seek an experienced vet for the surgery (like Dr E).

    There are times when teeth can be overgrown and trimming can fix things with time, but that is more true with youngsters and not 7/8 year olds.

    What antibiotics were used to treat the oral infections in the past?

    Without more info, I'd suggest using Clindamycin in combination with Augmentin for what seems to be an on-going infection (back to November?). The Clindamycin is effective for bone infection and the Augmentin soft-tissue. I suspect Bunch will need treatment for both soft tissue and possible bone infections. An alternative would be Doxycycline, a more slow acting but very wide spectrum antibiotic that is effective in both soft tissue and bone infections. JMO based on the info in this thread... Those upper incisors do not look healthy to me.



  3. #3
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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    I had never suspected malocclusion, maybe my inexperience in the area but his teeth never looked to be a problem prior to? They were not long and appeared to be normal & I have never heard of it actually pushing a tooth up into the gums before? Yes this was after the trim but there wasnít much more to see truly it hadnít gone into the roof of his mouth it was just before it.
    This helps thank you , so with this being said a trimming and antibiotics? He is congested itís bothering his breathing , Iím very concerned @ his just sleeping , and not eating very much , I have heard about the dr you mentioned, and I want to do everything I can to save him if it is an Ondontoma, Iím in NH & that would be a heck of a drive , I would think it would stress him out quite a bit considering this dr visit will be only the 2 time in his life heíd been confined @ all. Any ideas on the coloring of the top tooth? I will get a bunch of photos tomorrow to post

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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    My neuro girl had both malocclusion issues and an odontoma . Maybe more pics can help for short term advice. But if the problems persist as they did with our girl, the trip is worth it. There is also a vet in Maryland who has some experience with squirrels. We have traveled to both offices.

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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    Squirrel incisor teeth are like hairs, they never stop growing. If they are not worn down, the upper will grow back and then up into the roof of the mouth. They typically will wear down with the uppers grinding on the lower (incisors), they wear down when they are bruxing nuts... my wilds love to use the aluminum deck "end tables" to grind down their teeth. This is why we recommend providing plenty of things for captive squirrels to gnaw on like antlers, black walnuts and hickory nuts, wood and even stones / rocks. How long it takes for the teeth to grow too long depends on how vigorous the squirrel is about grinding their teeth down themselves.

    I'd start by getting your NH vet to take some X-Rays... if they are not certain if odontomas are present, you can can them to Dr E for her opinion. Only if surgery is needed would the trip become necessary. Having made this trip myself (but not from NH) I can tell you that if you leave to head home right after the surgery, she'll be out of it for much of the trip home.

    Best case scenario is the congestion was caused by the overgrown teeth, maybe even opened a would in the top of the mouth that is infected? If there are not odontomas the meds will help clear things up... if it is odontomas, I doubt you'll see much improvement on the meds.

    Keep him in small cage with a blanket draped over it for the vet visit (dark, warm and quiet).

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    Lightbulb Thank you sorry for late reply

    I had been trying & trying to post on the board since his appointment, it wouldnít let me ? I figured I would wait a bit & try again , now itís working. So Bunch update. No sign of Ondontomas! All of his teeth were rotted! To the point he touched 3 of his molers they fell out no root attached ! So this has been his issue I imagine he was in a lot of pain! Now he only has a few teeth left the vet said , I have no idea how this happened, the vet thinks possibly bad genes? Iím enclosing all pics , my concern now is I donít like the way his top and bottom teeth look, he is now on a. Soft serve diet , suggestions?

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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

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    Default Re: Thank you sorry for late reply

    Quote Originally Posted by LilLulu View Post
    I had been trying & trying to post on the board since his appointment, it wouldnít let me ? I figured I would wait a bit & try again , now itís working. So Bunch update. No sign of Ondontomas! All of his teeth were rotted! To the point he touched 3 of his molers they fell out no root attached ! So this has been his issue I imagine he was in a lot of pain! Now he only has a few teeth left the vet said , I have no idea how this happened, the vet thinks possibly bad genes? Iím enclosing all pics , my concern now is I donít like the way his top and bottom teeth look, he is now on a. Soft serve diet , suggestions?
    Hi LilLulu:
    I'm sorry that you have not yet had a response to your update on your original thread about Bunch. It certainly appears that Bunch has very significant dental issues! We all talk about tooth "rot" but what is meant by this has can often be a number of different things. When a tooth itself "rots," it doesn't just start disintegrating or falling out because of genetic makeup! "Rot" is decay and either the tooth or its root or both are decaying. Decay of a tooth itself is classically caused by plaque which which is essentially a thin, invisible film over the teeth containing bacteria. When sugars are broken down in the mouth by these bacteria acids form and can lead to tooth decay. I do not know the actual data but I suspect that decay involving the incisors is relatively rare because these grow continuously and it may be that significant enough decay of the tooth may not develop before it is eventually ground down (or trimmed by your vet). I suspect this but again, it without data and if anyone does have data one way or the other, it would be appreciated. This would not be the case with the molars however and plaque and decay would be more likely there. BUT, regardless of this, decay is not a genetic problem although the genes certainly seem to play a part in an animal's or human's resistance to destructive plaque. With wild animals, a hereditary line of Squirrels with a propensity toward developing significant tooth decay does not make sense because "nature" would most likely have eradicated a line of Squirrels with hereditary that affected the functionality of their teeth!

    For the molars to simply fall out from "rot" seems to imply periodontal disease, not just tooth decay! Periodontal disease (just for the record, I am not a dentist) is infection and swelling in the tissues surrounding the teeth which include the gums, the layer that actually holds the root of the tooth in the bone and the bone itself. I suspect that Bunch have dental abscesses that may have drained now but remaining portions may still be active or even intact and may continue to cause problems. Dental abscesses are localized infections around the tooth. These can spread further into the surrounding tissues and even into the bone.

    How was it determined that there was no Odontoma? Were x-ray studies performed? Odontomas are quite common and often, x-ray films are diagnostic of this condition! Has Bunch been prescribe antibiotics with the suspicion that there may very well be infection still present in the periodontal regions (again, that includes the bone)?

    A suggestion I have is to request a consultation (can be by email and/or phone with you having forwarded photos, x-ray studies, lab and whatever else has gone on to her first) with Dr. Alicia Emerson from the Ravenwood Verterinary Clinic. She is a Squirrel specialist even more pertinent, she is a Squirrel dental specialist as well! She is highly experienced with Squirrel dental issues and has performed countless dental procedures on Squirrels including complex Odontoma surgery! The contact link for the Revenwood Clinic and Dr. Emerson is: https://ravenwoodvet.net

    The soft diet certainly sounds like the way to proceed now. Can you provide information on what has been Bunch's diet up to now. Dietary issues, especially maintaining daily calcium, Vitamin D, and the balance between calcium and phosphorus (which should always favor the calcium!) can have a bearing on dental health!

    Regards,
    SamtheSquirrel

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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    I just went through this scenario with one of my released squirrels. In her case she developed an abscess on her jaw that required me to have her evaluated by a vet. The abscess was a result of decayed teeth. At that time the vet told me the cause of teeth decay can be from an injury to a tooth that can come from opening a nut or even a fall. Once the bacteria is in there it can continue to spread through multiple teeth if it isn’t treated. The vet pulled two affected teeth and my squirrel took the prescribed antibiotics for 10 days, after which I re-released her.

    Fast forward about a month and I noticed the same jaw had developed another abscess on it. I took her back to the vet and three more teeth had to be removed, one being a lower incisor. This time the vet was more aggressive with the antibiotics. My squirrel was given a Baytril injection as well as an injection of Convenia, which is a slow release drug that remains in the squirrels system for 2 weeks. I gave Clavamox at home for 2 weeks. Issues in the mouth are quite painful. My squirrel was treated with Buprenorphine (a controlled substance) as well as Metacam.

    I was advised to keep her inside for a month to monitor her upper teeth for overgrowth, of which there was none. She has been re-released and is back in the trees and all seems fine as of now.

    My point with this story is that because of the proximity to the brain, the infection needs to be treated very aggressively. And if the infection has penetrated the bone the antibiotic treatment needs to be extra aggressive and probably treated for a much longer period of time than the standard 10-14 days. What antibiotics is (was) your squirrel on?

    Does your squirrel eat a rodent block? Because of the lack of teeth now you may need to make boo balls from ground rodent block, baby food and coconut or avocado oil. These boo balls are much softer and easier for the squirrel to eat. There’s boo ball in the Squirrel Nutrition section.

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    Default Photo of bunch teeth

    These are the teeth he said just fell out
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    Default thank you

    I apologize for lack of info like i said i wasn't able to get my phone to post so i wanted to get something up, I actually wrote back another 2 times and it did the same thing so i'm sticking to my computer to reply
    I requested an x-ray to check for Ondontomas , i'll post the xray later
    Bunch has always been a VERY picky eater, I have been making him boo balls now, mixing in different things ....he wont eat any boiled sweet pot.
    Before he would eat his block with snap peas sweet pot, grapes, apple, broccoli , carrots,pecans,avacado,califlower, cherries, orange, not the same each day i would vary , i could never get him to eat any leafy greens. He had his antlers and branches to chew , he never got sick or injured himself
    I had previously given him clindamycin
    he was sent home with ZydaClin this time and some Metacam .

    I couldnt get answers from the vet with the next step, basically he said your boy has rotten teeth he will need a soft diet now.....
    I never had his teeth trimmed but they never seemed to be an issue ...But what about hit top tooth? it is pushed back to the roof of his mouth will it need to get clipped regularly ?and it looks to be rotting also?
    I asked for blood work but they said they couldnt hit a vein, i asked for his sugar to be checked because there has to be a reason this happened, i agree teeth dont just rot for no reason and fall out, will the few teeth he has left, will they rot?as you stated peridontal disease
    After the reading ive done dr emerson sounds like a good starting place
    I have so many questions ...i'm going to get a nap before my 4 yr old wakes and i will post some more pics and reply with more info

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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    Iíd start with a phone call to Ravenwood Veterinary Clinic and make an appointment with Dr. Emerson (386) 788-1550. It doesnít sound like youíre getting much info from your current vet and you need to have some answers IMO. If a top tooth is pushed back and touching the roof of the mouth then Iím sure it will need to be trimmedÖ.even more reason to see Dr. Emerson.

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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    Good morning, I don't have any answers for you. However, one of our girls is having similar issues. I am trying to get an appointment to get her checked. Mine definitely needs her lower teeth trimmed. I will be watching for your updates to see how this goes. I hope yor baby feels better soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilLulu View Post
    I apologize for lack of info like i said i wasn't able to get my phone to post so i wanted to get something up, I actually wrote back another 2 times and it did the same thing so i'm sticking to my computer to reply
    I requested an x-ray to check for Ondontomas , i'll post the xray later
    Bunch has always been a VERY picky eater, I have been making him boo balls now, mixing in different things ....he wont eat any boiled sweet pot.
    Before he would eat his block with snap peas sweet pot, grapes, apple, broccoli , carrots,pecans,avacado,califlower, cherries, orange, not the same each day i would vary , i could never get him to eat any leafy greens. He had his antlers and branches to chew , he never got sick or injured himself
    I had previously given him clindamycin
    he was sent home with ZydaClin this time and some Metacam .

    I couldnt get answers from the vet with the next step, basically he said your boy has rotten teeth he will need a soft diet now.....
    I never had his teeth trimmed but they never seemed to be an issue ...But what about hit top tooth? it is pushed back to the roof of his mouth will it need to get clipped regularly ?and it looks to be rotting also?
    I asked for blood work but they said they couldnt hit a vein, i asked for his sugar to be checked because there has to be a reason this happened, i agree teeth dont just rot for no reason and fall out, will the few teeth he has left, will they rot?as you stated peridontal disease
    After the reading ive done dr emerson sounds like a good starting place
    I have so many questions ...i'm going to get a nap before my 4 yr old wakes and i will post some more pics and reply with more info
    Thanks for the update, LilLulu! Yes, please contact Dr. Emerson today! Zydaclin (Clindamycin) is a good antibiotic choice! If there is any evidence of the onset of diarrhea, stop the Zydaclin immediately as this medicine, while most likely being a great choice for a likely dental infection; can cause a potentially severe colon problem called colitis. If diarrhea should occur, this may be a sign of colitis and the medication should be stopped and the Vet contacted immediately. Hopefully, you can get Dr. Emerson involved in Bunch's case and she may have another preference in antibiotics. I would trust her completely! We will be awaiting your posting of the x-ray films. Hope you have a great nap a awaken refreshed!
    Regards,
    SamtheSquirrel

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    Default Bunch x rays what do you guys think

    Also I feel like I should go ahead and do a second round of antibiotics, I feel like he seems a bit off he didnít have any side effects from it. I wasnít able to get to reach out to Dr Emerson earlier but I believe an email was posted I am going to get it sent tonight so itís there for the am
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    Default Bunch xray 2

    Sorry Iím doing it this way but the photos on are my phone and so I donít have to re do it
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    Default Xray 3

    Bunch xray 3
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    Default Xray 4

    Bunch xray 4 final shot
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    Default Re: NEED HELP/ ADVICE ONDONTOMA SUSPECTED

    Dr. Emersonís email is frontdesk@ravenwoodvet.net. Donít just rely on the email, please call them and have them check their emails so Dr. E can get it. She usually will do a consult and evaluate X-ray films.

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