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Thread: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

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    Default Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Hey all and thanks for looking! So my guy won't eat anything leafy. He loved broccoli but getting tired of that. He adores cauliflower, but I feel bad only giving him that. He worships fruit and nuts but I know I can't make meals of it. And he likes carrots and sweet potato but I know it also has to be minimal. He of course eats three daily Henry's blocks. Somewhere on here (I can add pics if needed) the Henry's people put a useful food pyramid. It said that collard greens for example were a big no no...so I took it as gospel. Then, I saw on here a chart listing high to low calcified foods and also showed their phos counterpart. That chart ranked collard greens as literally the healthiest food for them out there....if you go by the numbers. My question is....excluding leafy goods....what healthy foods fo your lil ones go for? Which is healthy or not? This cauliflower is gonna get worn out real soon here I'm afraid. Or should I just stick with that if he allows it. He loves brussle sprouts and squash, too.....but stinky pee city AND te one chart now says squash is bad. Halp! Lol...

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    While collard greens have a great Ca:P ratio, I believe they are high in oxalates... potatoes (white) are on the avoid list because of starch. So, everything in balance... and everything in moderation as grandpa used to say.

    The pyramid also says somewhere that variety is the key.

    Have you tried wild things like dandelion greens or apple twigs with the leaves?

    Another option might be commercial rodent block (in addition to the Henry's)... the Teklad or Mazuri. He might prefer those over the veggies you've tried.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Thanks! he eats 3 blocks per day. Won;t eat anything leafy though.






    Quote Originally Posted by Spanky View Post
    While collard greens have a great Ca:P ratio, I believe they are high in oxalates... potatoes (white) are on the avoid list because of starch. So, everything in balance... and everything in moderation as grandpa used to say.

    The pyramid also says somewhere that variety is the key.

    Have you tried wild things like dandelion greens or apple twigs with the leaves?

    Another option might be commercial rodent block (in addition to the Henry's)... the Teklad or Mazuri. He might prefer those over the veggies you've tried.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    When you say he doesn’t like leafy greens have you tried baby kale, chicory, radicchio, escarole, store bought dandelion leaves, endive?

    In the vegetable section there are packaged shredded salad kits that contain a mixture of assorted vegetables and a package of dressing and some type of salad topper, like sunflower seeds or pumpkin seeds. I buy these sometimes, particularly the Asian Kale. I give my guy some of the conveniently already prepared veggies, I use the dressing and I share the toppers with him....in moderation. There are a wide variety of veggies in these and it helps with the veggie boredom, I think.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Immature small organic leaves are naturally low in oxalic acid, compared to mature leaves that are high. Arugula, chicory leaves, radicchio, escarole are among the leafy greens that are nil in oxalates. Kale is low to moderate, as is Bok choy. A source known as Japanese spinach mustard is highest in calcium content.

    Even so, blanching (short term boiling) these greens for 90 sec. reduces the bitter taste and deactivates the Goitrogens contained in brassica and other leafy greens also. oxalic acid the calcium lowering anti nutrient found in higher levels in most leafy greens. Just don't boil them to where they begin to disintegrate.

    With stalked green vegetables boiling about 15 min. Cauliflower is a favorite. Skinned and cut up boiled root vegetables like Parsnips, rutabagas, and carrots are also a good choice, the thinner you cut them the quicker they cook.

    Sweet potato is high in oxalic acid, save it is boiled it would result in more calcium loss to the meal.

    Baked butternut and acorn squashes are low in oxalates; these are very good sources as they are positive to near equal in Calcium to Phosphorus, and lower in sugars than sweet potatoes and yams are also. Storing squash portions in vacuum sealed for best preservation in the freezer. The fun part for these is you can use baby food silicone trays to fill them by measure so that they pop right out when you are ready to thaw them overnight in a covered plastic container. Then in the morning you can take out the container and let it warm up to room temperature before feeding the portion.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Thanks so much on this wealth of information! Any thoughts on soft foods for variety? What about scrambled eggs, cheese, or baby foods? All a bad idea, huh? Thanks!!

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    You can try any of those items. You never know what they might like. Flying squirrels eat protein like eggs, cheese and chicken. My dwarf squirrel ate chicken and I always mixed his block with baby food and formula.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Good to know not dangerous, thanks! I am going to post a pic soon of what he eats at breakfast , lunch and dinner to show my portions. Hoping not too much or little. They say that humans shouldn't eat any one meal larger than the size of their hand. An old military thing. Any fast rules of thumb like this for squirrels....for example a 1/2 cup of food for breakfast or carrot pieces no bigger than my finger? I'm unsure of his weight, but he may have gained a lil' since I first got him a few months back. Still pretty sleek looking, but the belly looks a bit puffy when he sits and I want to make sure not bloat. Keep in mind he jumps in cage throughout day and comes out for a few hours daily to play in his room. But no real long running to burn calories. Once hot weather hit, he began to shed hairs mostly belly...near bald. He also got really bitey since we started giving him antler to keep his teeth worn down. Again, hoping we're not under feeding a hungry squirrel but online info as to portion size is scant....

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Eggs are best poached or soft boiled to where the yolk begins to congeal, but has not turned color or become hard, with the white fully cooked which soft boiling and poaching supports. There are plastic cooking dishes for eggs that can be used to poach eggs in the microwave that makes is real simple to do; just let it cool longer than poaching egg in boiling water.

    Egg white is the gold standard of protein. It is an excellent source to include every other day. Feed about 1/2 Tsp. total daily. When you put out the egg always include the egg white and yolk in a (2:1) proportion, as there is a natural negative compound in the white that is countered by another in the yolk.


    Applesauce organic naturally sweetened (no sugars or artificial sugars added). 1/4 Tsp. daily into the yogurt may help overcome the aversion to this healthy food.
    Last edited by TubeDriver; 06-24-2020 at 01:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Wow...you are really shooting pearls of wisdom here...and I thank-you! The last comment about applesauce into yogurt....do I mix the two you're saying? or did you not mean yogurt and meant yolk? I'm confused on that part....I'm sorry. So more egg white than yolk...2:1. Too much yolk is bad, but not enough yolk is bad too. Cause it helps the negative of the white. Got it!!!














    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post

    Eggs are best poached or soft boiled to where the yolk begins to congeal, but has not turned color or become hard, with the white fully cooked which soft boiling and poaching supports. There are plastic cooking dishes for eggs that can be used to poach eggs in the microwave that makes is real simple to do; just let it cool longer than poaching egg in boiling water.

    Egg white is the gold standard of protein. It is an excellent source to include every other day. Feed about 1 to 1/2 Tsp. total daily. When you put out the egg always include the egg white and yolk in a (2:1) proportion, as there is a natural negative compound in the white that is countered by another in the yolk.


    Applesauce organic naturally sweetened (no sugars or artificial sugars added). 1/4 Tsp. daily into the yogurt may help overcome the aversion to this healthy food.
    Last edited by TubeDriver; 06-24-2020 at 08:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    I meant the organic applesauce. Beyond making the yogurt more appealing taste wise, organic applesauce contains pectin that has been found in rats to lend greater support to the absorption of calcium into the bloodstream. Excess sugar though should be avoided in their diet, for too much causes calcium loss into the urine. Rodent block for rat and mice studies is not just for convenience, but for the continuity of results to support the greater body of studies towards using rodent models to mirror the diets of humans, in support of gaining knowledge as to how to improve and maintain human health. These diets used to support the need for convenient nutritional support of short term rehabilitation of tree squirrels back to the wild, when used as many rehabbers do, are sufficient.

    To support these animals in captivity long term passed the age of release, Nutraceuticals (Pycnogenol, Organic Pumpkin Seed oil, Organic food grade Chia oil), concentrated nutrient sources akin to those in the wild, not included in rodent block diets, can help to fill in the gaps in their nutrition with sources that contain nutrients sources that are like that which their diet in the wild could otherwise provide.

    Pycnogenol, (PYC) for example, is an extract of the cambium layer of the Maritime Pine from France; it has been studied over 50 years in over 100 studies. This source is particularly very high in polyphenols, having anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti viral, anti-inflammatory, anti-diabetic, and anti-aging properties which support the longevity of vital organs. It is also analgesic, found to work better than synthetic aspirin without the negative side effects that synthetic has. Rats were confirmed to have a high tolerance for this source, yet a minimum dose of 1 to 2 mg. daily. The longer a squirrel is on these sources the greater the potential for it's compounds to support the properties it has been found to promote in rodents.

    https://www.amazon.com/Healthy-Orgin...3&s=hpc&sr=1-4

    These oils from Foods Alive organic Chia oil (food grade, for not all are) https://foodsalive.com/products/orga...il-foods-alive

    and

    Seed oil Company of Oregon (organic pumpkin seed oil)
    https://www.seedoilcompany.com/pumpkin-seed-oil

    sales@seedoilcompany.com Ask for 8 oz. small bottle, I did and they sent me one not shown on their webpage. Family run company.

    Though even laboratory research journals have stated that there is no perfect diet for rats and mice (ground rodents; the closer a diet is to supply the nutrients that the natural wild diets supply for tree squirrels, the better!

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    I too have had ongoing issues with squirrels eating their leafy greens. I find rotating a mix helps, it is like shopping full time for a squirrel. Somewhere I read that once you offer a food to not offer that for three days to help keep it interesting. But even doing that, does not guarantee they'll eat it. So I too will offer the things it likes daily just to keep it eating. I have found fresh tree twigs to be good, they like to pick off the fresh little buds and eat them. And mine like dandelion from the garden and lambs quarters weed, he loves that, but I think it's high in oxalates so I limit it. Make sure no chemicals have been used on the yard if giving yard greens.

    Mine too worships nuts and fruit. And both of them have to be given in small amounts.

    Note, I had heard somewhere that Henry's Healthy Blocks are essential, but only 1-2 a day, because they are packed with vitamins and minerals to keep MBD away, they are not meant to be a staple. I'm not saying 3 is bad, I don't know.

    When I understood that common rat block is a staple food, I got Envigo/Teklad 2018 to supplement my guys 2 HHB's a day. I'll say this, he wouldn't eat them. So this was my food adventure with Corwynn. He would take the Teklad blocks and stash them or bury them in the RC dirt, but not eat them. So after a week of this, I put almond butter on the outside. He licked it all off, leaving the block. So next I crushed the block into a powder/crumble mix and then mixed in just enough almond butter to make it appealing I didn't over do it because it is a nut. This mix comes out like a dry cereal crumble. There is much more of the Teklad block than there is almond butter. My method has been that I give one HHB first thing in the morning and then some fruit and veggies. Mid to late morning I bring him a small dish of the crumbled Teklad block. He loves it, and eats it all. He then gets yard twigs to forage and chew, and near end of day another HHB which he always wants, maybe more fruit and veggies and then some nuts, not many. I give him a little less nuts because of getting the almond butter to make the Teklad go down.

    I welcome anyones thoughts as to if my making Teklad blocks palatable for a squirrel with some almond butter is acceptable. I've dubbed these things "Corwynn Crumbles".

    They have helped me feel that he is getting a measure of food to sustain him until he's out in the wild, when I struggled to get him to eat lots of veggies. Note also that though he refused formula and weaned himself weeks ago, if I offer formula for a few days and then not for a few days, he loves it. So that is one more thing he eats. Hope that helps, I do understand the issues of getting squirrels to eat what they should.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Thanks for all of this info! Ok...so here are three pics of what my guy eats per day. Three blocks at sunrise, second pic is lunch, third pic dinner, PLUS he gets one or two nuts/treats/fruit pieces per day. Over feeding? Not enough? Please be gentle on me...I'm trying my best and want what's right for him. Thanks!!

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Wow lots of good information shared here. Helpful to me as well. Thanks for the information on eggs and chicken. I have a 14/16 week female gray. She seems to like dandelion, plantain weed, apple leaves, redbud and rain tree leaves and maple. I try to pick tiny tender buds and leaves off the trees. She also loves dogwood middles. Like not the petals but the middle part. Greens are tricky for her but she does best with wild stuff I forage for her. I keel mixed greens in the fridge for days I can’t forage. She likes clover blooms, dandelion flowers and petals off my impatience. Also she’ll eat snap peas, asparagus, avocado, butternut, broccoli, sweet potatoes, radishes, and most any fruit. Greens are the hardest but I kinda just take comfort in feeding her two HHB per day, organic yogurt in the morning and a variety of fresh produce every day. I have to dice it to get her to eat veg so maybe try that. She like to be able to hold it.
    It sounds like you’re taking great care and if you have a happy healthy active squirrel then I’d say good job!

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    The supplements you recommend below in links....how do I administer them in proper dosages for a squirrel? Thanks!!!




    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    I meant the organic applesauce. Beyond making the yogurt more appealing taste wise, organic applesauce contains pectin that has been found in rats to lend greater support to the absorption of calcium into the bloodstream. Excess sugar though should be avoided in their diet, for too much causes calcium loss into the urine. Rodent block for rat and mice studies is not just for convenience, but for the continuity of results to support the greater body of studies towards using rodent models to mirror the diets of humans, in support of gaining knowledge as to how to improve and maintain human health. These diets used to support the need for convenient nutritional support of short term rehabilitation of tree squirrels back to the wild, when used as many rehabbers do, are sufficient.

    To support these animals in captivity long term passed the age of release, Nutraceuticals (Pycnogenol, Organic Pumpkin Seed oil, Organic food grade Chia oil), concentrated nutrient sources akin to those in the wild, not included in rodent block diets, can help to fill in the gaps in their nutrition with sources that contain nutrients sources that are like that which their diet in the wild could otherwise provide.

    Pycnogenol, (PYC) for example, is an extract of the cambium layer of the Maritime Pine from France; it has been studied over 50 years in over 100 studies. This source is particularly very high in polyphenols, having anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti viral, anti-inflammatory, anti-diabetic, and anti-aging properties which support the longevity of vital organs. It is also analgesic, found to work better than synthetic aspirin without the negative side effects that synthetic has. Rats were confirmed to have a high tolerance for this source, yet a minimum dose of 1 to 2 mg. daily. The longer a squirrel is on these sources the greater the potential for it's compounds to support the properties it has been found to promote in rodents.

    https://www.amazon.com/Healthy-Orgin...3&s=hpc&sr=1-4

    These oils from Foods Alive organic Chia oil (food grade, for not all are) https://foodsalive.com/products/orga...il-foods-alive

    and

    Seed oil Company of Oregon (organic pumpkin seed oil)
    https://www.seedoilcompany.com/pumpkin-seed-oil

    sales@seedoilcompany.com Ask for 8 oz. small bottle, I did and they sent me one not shown on their webpage. Family run company.

    Though even laboratory research journals have stated that there is no perfect diet for rats and mice (ground rodents; the closer a diet is to supply the nutrients that the natural wild diets supply for tree squirrels, the better!

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Sure enough.

    Pycnogenol from 30 mg. capsule include 1/16 of a capsule in the food daily.

    Chia Oil include 1/32 Tsp. split to 1/64 tsp. in both the AM and PM meal. Because this is cold pressed straining out the residue from the seed left in the product is needful.

    From Seed oil Co of Oregon, not a carrier oil, include the same measures daily as noted for the Chia oil.
    Should you find your squirrel prefers one oil over the other then add the split portion of both to the AM and PM meals.

    If you squirrel really loves the oil taste of one of this, try putting it on a food they have begun to refuse.

    As for variety as far as the Brassica veggies, that is an allusion, for they have been found to be bred from the same source, the Mustard Plant. The variety they have is just from what part of the plant and what particular genetics that part has. Interestingly, cauliflower and broccoli forests are the flower part of this plant. Squirrels in the wild consume the flowers and bud portions mostly, with very little of the leaves save during the juvenile stage of life. Adults in the wild have learned which foods are best by the time they reach adulthood. All the same these aren the plants that tree squirrels consume in the wild according to mammalogy research as they ignore the mustard plant as it is bitter.

    All the tree squirrels species have been observed licking tree sap. They actually ae able to get some calcium from this source in the spring, which is higher in calcium than phosphorus. The only drawback is that since it is very high in potassium,only about 1/4 Tsp. can be added to the diet daily, otherwise the stool may loosen. Such sources are available on Amazon.com, not all are good, or taste good; much depends on the processing.

    https://www.sciencealert.com/these-6...-plant-species


    Here is one source of the mini measuring Teaspoons you will need to measure the oils. This brand has the Tsp. amounts noted, most do not.

    https://www.amazon.com/Morgenhaan-St...itchen&sr=1-63

    Also wire tea strainer to use to boil and blanch leafy greens and vegetables, makes the task a zip. This isn't the only source for wire tea strainers just the cheapest one it appears.

    https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Inf...46884&sr=8-143

    This file is the one I forgot to include in my previous post. It shows how much calcium in boiled broccoli.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    What about feeding them tofu? I've read mixed feelings on that. Also, can you give me a rough idea of how many cups of food per day in total one should eat between three meals daily? Thanks!!!!!







    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    Sure enough.

    Pycnogenol from 30 mg. capsule include 1/16 of a capsule in the food daily.

    Chia Oil include 1/32 Tsp. split to 1/64 tsp. in both the AM and PM meal. Because this is cold pressed straining out the residue from the seed left in the product is needful.

    From Seed oil Co of Oregon, not a carrier oil, include the same measures daily as noted for the Chia oil.
    Should you find your squirrel prefers one oil over the other then add the split portion of both to the AM and PM meals.

    If you squirrel really loves the oil taste of one of this, try putting it on a food they have begun to refuse.

    As for variety as far as the Brassica veggies, that is an allusion, for they have been found to be bred from the same source, the Mustard Plant. The variety they have is just from what part of the plant and what particular genetics that part has. Interestingly, cauliflower and broccoli forests are the flower part of this plant. Squirrels in the wild consume the flowers and bud portions mostly, with very little of the leaves save during the juvenile stage of life. Adults in the wild have learned which foods are best by the time they reach adulthood. All the same these aren the plants that tree squirrels consume in the wild according to mammalogy research as they ignore the mustard plant as it is bitter.

    All the tree squirrels species have been observed licking tree sap. They actually ae able to get some calcium from this source in the spring, which is higher in calcium than phosphorus. The only drawback is that since it is very high in potassium,only about 1/4 Tsp. can be added to the diet daily, otherwise the stool may loosen. Such sources are available on Amazon.com, not all are good, or taste good; much depends on the processing.

    https://www.sciencealert.com/these-6...-plant-species


    Here is one source of the mini measuring Teaspoons you will need to measure the oils. This brand has the Tsp. amounts noted, most do not.

    https://www.amazon.com/Morgenhaan-St...itchen&sr=1-63

    Also wire tea strainer to use to boil and blanch leafy greens and vegetables, makes the task a zip. This isn't the only source for wire tea strainers just the cheapest one it appears.

    https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Inf...46884&sr=8-143

    This file is the one I forgot to include in my previous post. It shows how much calcium in boiled broccoli.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    I've wondered about tofu myself -- as well as soy, coconut, or almond yogurt. Anything but dairy.

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    There are rodent block-pellet diets that contain soy which have been found to be useful in rehabbing and long term care. Yet though soy has some healthy properties, it also has some negative ones; kind of a double edged sword health wise. There is also HHB block diet that doesn't contain corn or soy; they offer various options.

    Most squirrels will consume rodent block, the most convenient source of protein, macro-minerals and other nutrients needed to support the nutritional needs of tree squirrels cared for in captivity; yet they aren't a fermented soy source it as tofu is. I'm no expert on tofu that has many versions, some noted to be fortified with minerals and some that are not; yet tofu by itself isn't sufficient to support the nutritional requirements of tree squirrels cared for in captivity.
    .

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    Default Re: Conflicting diet data here on the board...questions....

    Quote Originally Posted by strdsk View Post
    What about feeding them tofu? I've read mixed feelings on that. Also, can you give me a rough idea of how many cups of food per day in total one should eat between three meals daily? Thanks!!!!!
    I personally don't think anything soy-related is good for squirrels. As far as volume, I typically give two 1" x 1" squares of whatever vegetable per squirrel, per feeding. Rodent block, however, can be left in the bowl at all times the way you leave dry food out for cats. In the case of Henry's Healthy blocks, which are more a supplement than a staple food, you need to limit them to two per day for grey squirrels, 3 per day for fox squirrels.
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