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Thread: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

  1. #1
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    Default Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Rama Rota has been drinking a lot and for some time plus acting like he does not feel very good and not eating as well as he should. I thought it was just the intense heat causing both the drinking and not eating as much but more and more he is peeing all over and seems very uncomfortable, plus takes a long time to pee.

    He turned 10 yrs the first of Dec.

    I am uncertain exactly what is wrong but thinking possible UTI.

    What would be some of the best ABS to use, IF I have it AND need dosing ?

    May 21st weight - 650 grms

    Please PM me.
    Thanks

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Thanks ! !

    Got the dosing.... starting him tonight and hoping he will be greatly
    improved in a few days.


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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Rama finished his meds a day or two ago..... he is going down hill......

    He SEEMS to pee well.... floods his papers > BUT, continues to try to pump and pump,

    acts distressed. he is active mid day.....

    I am wondering if it could be oxalate crystals....... and although he can pee and has been
    peeing a lot what ever this is it makes him keep FEELING like he still has to....... is this possible? ?

    Oxalates ALWAYS stopped Luna's peeing...... this is or appears differently.

    He is now off his food for the most part.. ONLY wants to eat tomato, which he is now not allowed
    to have due to containing high Oxalates He will eat mushrooms, which all the sites I have checked show this is low..... he had been willing to eat oatmeal but that is HIGH too, and he will eat sharp cheddar cheese which is low but not really good for him, and Boo Ball shakes BUT I feel concern as HHB's are made with wheat flour which is also High Oxalates.

    I have given him some orange winter sqush cooked and homemade apple sauce which he was eating the last day or two but refuses them if I add ANY Calcium and Mag.

    Does any one have any suggestions?

    { for months now he has had a lump between his balls and his thy on one side - as it gets bigger
    could this be causing a problem??? but it is on the side of his groin so I thought it could not press on any organs.}

    sure could use some help.
    Thansk

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Yes it could; yet it could be another form of urinary calculi (crystals stones). Depending on the form some are dissolvable (Calcium phosphate and Struvite) some are not (oxalates). Even vets can't tell save they retrieve the stones. Using cheese cloth if you can catch the urine it will strain them out from the urine. Then the crystals could be tested.

    Wheat varieties range form high moderate to high in oxalate content. The with block diets is a matter of those that aren't supported with soil based organisms Pre probiotic sources, aka (SBO) that contain oxalate degrading bacteria; squirrels have access to these in the wild. The natural chief oxalate degrading found in the gut found in young rodents and all mammals (Oxalobacter formigenes) is destroyed by the use of particular AB, even so not all. I have a study I can share on that with you that shows which AB don't destroy this key oxalate consuming bacteria.
    Soil Based good gut bacteria is needed. Can't say how to get it save it is found surrounding the roots of grasses. Personally I don't know the names of allot of grasses, save for 'Fescue' species (Marathon in the US), which by itself it non toxic. As long as the grass species is non toxic it may be something you want to consider offering to him just the portion of the roots with the grass portion removed; this, if not treated with fertilizers or herbicides, preferably a wild strain of grass.
    Last edited by island rehabber; 06-01-2020 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4235702/

    In this study, scroll down to see a Table of the list of detoxifying gut bacteria for oxalates.

    If you can find a source locally with any of these forms noted to detoxify it may help.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...ort=objectonly

    Enterococcus gallinarum Woodrat feces detoxification [64]
    Enterococcus faecium Canine feces N/A [67]
    Enterococcus faecalis Human stool, canine feces carbon/energy [62,67]
    Provendencia rettgeri Human stool N/A [68]
    Streptococcus thermophilus Probiotic detoxification [63]
    Lactobacillus plantarum Probiotic, canine/feline feces detoxification [69,70]
    Lactobacillus gasseri Probiotic, woodrat gut detoxification [64,70]
    Lactobacillus casei Probiotic detoxification [70,71,72]
    Lactobacillus acidophilus Human stool detoxification [73]
    Lactobacillus rhamnosus Probiotic detoxification [70]
    Lactobacillus salviarius Probiotic detoxification [70]
    Lactobacillus johnsonii Woodrat gut detoxification [64]
    Bifidobacterium infantis Probiotic detoxification [63]
    Bifidobacterium animalis Human stool detoxification [70]
    Clostridium sporogenes Woodrat feces detoxification [64]

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    I don't have any specific advice, just sending hugs and prayers.
    See my wild squirrel adventures in the thread "Squirtle's yard!":
    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...quirtle-s-Yard!

    Loving dad to Sir Max, 2017-2018. There is no foot so small that it cannot leave an imprint on this world.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right."
    -Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Information Overload here.

    I went to the links.... tried to skim through..... TOO MUCH.....

    No such thing as cheese cloth here in CR.... { Can I use ANY KIND OF MATERIAL ? }
    Don't know ANYTHING about any of the grasses here...... never saw squs here eating any of
    the grass so don't have a clue which would be OKAY.... and the local vets wouldn't know either.

    Just need straight forward, do this, not that.......
    I have been too sick to go to school and study to try to decide what to do.

    If any one has suggestions of what this is or could be and what to DO, please just keep it simple.
    I have been very sick and not of a mind to read pages of info and try to figure out WHAT
    I am reading.
    Thanks

    Don't understand any of what is listed below or why I am reading it and because
    I don't understand it it is pointless...... I don't care about human stool or canine feces,
    I just need some simple feedback.

    Enterococcus gallinarum Woodrat feces detoxification [64]
    Enterococcus faecium Canine feces N/A [67]
    Enterococcus faecalis Human stool, canine feces carbon/energy [62,67]
    Provendencia rettgeri Human stool N/A [68]
    Streptococcus thermophilus Probiotic detoxification [63]
    Lactobacillus plantarum Probiotic, canine/feline feces detoxification [69,70]
    Lactobacillus gasseri Probiotic, woodrat gut detoxification [64,70]
    Lactobacillus casei Probiotic detoxification [70,71,72]
    Lactobacillus acidophilus Human stool detoxification [73]
    Lactobacillus rhamnosus Probiotic detoxification [70]
    Lactobacillus salviarius Probiotic detoxification [70]
    Lactobacillus johnsonii Woodrat gut detoxification [64]
    Bifidobacterium infantis Probiotic detoxification [63]
    Bifidobacterium animalis Human stool detoxification [70]
    Clostridium sporogenes Woodrat feces detoxification [64]

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Rosie, can any of the vets who you guys have seen do any x-rays? Rama is an old man now - it is hard to believe, I still remember the day he turned up in our pages, but he is. For all intents and purposes, the care and protection you have provided has left him where he is now about FOUR TIMES the average lifespan of a wild squirrel. And sadly, from what I have seen in the years on here, their little bodies aren't built to last that long, any more than ours are built to bring us to 300 years old. Bad things start to happen that are beyond the ability of medicines to deal with. The lump you have seen could easily be a malignancy and the symptoms he is having the result of that. An x-ray night be able to give you that answer instead of making assumptions about needed diet change which may have nothing to do with what is happening. Are any sort of diagnostics a possibility?

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Quote Originally Posted by CritterMom View Post
    Rosie, can any of the vets who you guys have seen do any x-rays? Rama is an old man now - it is hard to believe, I still remember the day he turned up in our pages, but he is. For all intents and purposes, the care and protection you have provided has left him where he is now about FOUR TIMES the average lifespan of a wild squirrel. And sadly, from what I have seen in the years on here, their little bodies aren't built to last that long, any more than ours are built to bring us to 300 years old. Bad things start to happen that are beyond the ability of medicines to deal with. The lump you have seen could easily be a malignancy and the symptoms he is having the result of that. An x-ray night be able to give you that answer instead of making assumptions about needed diet change which may have nothing to do with what is happening. Are any sort of diagnostics a possibility?
    No vets we know have x-ray.... one we know has ultrasound.... would that work as well or is that different?
    Although you did not mention it, I don't know that they would do a bi-opsy if one was needed or desired. So far the two vets have not wanted to do any real hands on except when Luna got her ultra-sound. Although that vet could "see" the crystals she was uncertain about any thing else she "might" be seeing.

    Stosh equates it to owning a Mercedes and going to a Toyota mechanic, they just don't know what they'er looking at.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Do you have Muslin fabric, like is used in fabric teabags and teas strainers? It works much the same. Sprread out the fabric on the bottom of the cage, or if he goes in one spot then there.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    Do you have Muslin fabric, like is used in fabric teabags and teas strainers? It works much the same. Sprread out the fabric on the bottom of the cage, or if he goes in one spot then there.
    No, mostly cotton and fleece, Old sheets, would a pc of sheet work???

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Fleece no, but cotton fabric might. The question is, is your vet able to test what they may fine?

    UTI produces Struvite crystals that accumulate into larger stones. Though Calcium oxalate crystals may be included in the mix of bladder stones in mammals they are not the main cause, like an infection is for UTI promoted Struvite stones. Your vet should be able to determine if he has a UTI.

    The other forms of urinary calculi produces; highly acidic urine promotes (Calcium oxalate) crystals. Calcium phosphate in rats mice, and tree squirrels. The alkaline promoted form of crystals (stones) is rare in humans is only seen in those with a genetic condition that causes them. This is why raw vegetables aren't an issue to include in the diet of humans, but a plus, yet not in rodents. For more than a small measure promotes alkaline mean urine pH. in rats, mice, and also in tree squirrels.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    Fleece no, but cotton fabric might. The question is, is your vet able to test what they may fine?
    I will speak with the one vet who seems willing to try to help...... will explain what I need and
    ask if she can check the crystals and hope too much will not be lost in translation.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    You need a litmus paper or urine testing strip.

    If the urine is over 7.5 to 8.0 it can be due to a UTI, for the bacteria of the infection raises the urine pH. into the alkaline range.

    If over (7.0) but not close to 8.0, that can be caused by diet being too alkaline, resulting in slightly alkaline mean urine pH. This again not just one test, but determined by a series of tests needed to determine mean urine pH. This can be related to infection from Calcium phosphate crystals abrading the lining of the bladder.

    If the urine is under 6.0, it commonly from a diet that promotes highly acidic urine; that is whe oxalate crystals most common form. Yet this form is most commonly effect the kidneys more than the bladder. As I noted above, Struvite crystals causes by repeated UTI may contain some Calcium oxalate crystals, but are not primarily this form.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    You need a litmus paper or urine testing strip.

    If the urine is over 7.5 to 8.0 it can be due to a UTI, for the bacteria of the infection raises the urine pH. into the alkaline range.

    If over (7.0) but not close to 8.0, that can be caused by diet being too alkaline, resulting in slightly alkaline mean urine pH. This again not just one test, but determined by a series of tests needed to determine mean urine pH. This can be related to infection from Calcium phosphate crystals abrading the lining of the bladder.

    If the urine is under 6.0, it commonly from a diet that promotes highly acidic urine; that is whe oxalate crystals most common form. Yet this form is most commonly effect the kidneys more than the bladder. As I noted above, Struvite crystals causes by repeated UTI may contain some Calcium oxalate crystals, but are not primarily this form.
    No urine test strips here.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    That's sad, as this really leaves the caregiver blind as to what the diet they are feeding is doing. The vet though should have these, as they are standard to determining infection beyond taking the temperature, and discharges.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Each line lists an individual source of good gut bacteria; I specifically highlighted the strains that are noted to support mammals and rodents for to look for in a probiotic product.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Both Rama and Luna have Struvite Crystals "magnesium ammonium phosphate"

    which is "supposedly" caused by UTI... usually Klebsiella, E. coli, and another bacteria which
    I can't recall..... " Luna ALWAYS has both of those in her sinus, mouth, and most likely in her gut.....

    Have to get another urine sample so a bacteria test can be done.... not enough this time.....
    so far all the information points to there being little that can be done as far as diet - as this
    type of crystal is caused by bacteria -
    except I can try to lower their PH both have 8,
    As far as the Struvite crystals the only other recommendations were lemonade, cranberry, and orange juice and treating the bacteria
    Rama's results are much worse than Luna's..... I know he is having a difficult time but still has
    very happy times too. Neither are eating as well as they had been.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    I read in a journal that the best counter to this resistant bacteria is probiotics with prebiotic that support the colony in the gut; for this bacteria doesn't become resistant to the good bacteria.

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    Default Re: Best ABS for Possible UTI { CR Rama Rota}

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    I read in a journal that the best counter to this resistant bacteria is probiotics with prebiotic that support the colony in the gut; for this bacteria doesn't become resistant to the good bacteria.
    What is a prebiotic? Where could I MAYBE get it? Have probiotic and can give them yogurt.
    Went to our GNC in town....... they have almost nothing worth considering. Nothing
    like the GNC's in the US.

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