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  1. #1
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    Default sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Hello all, I'm still relatively new to all this, I just received my apprenticeship license about 7 weeks ago. I am torn because I have 2 orphaned squirrels that are 14 weeks old, I got them when they were 7 weeks old and malnourished. The female (Rozey)was 115 grams, the male (Lemmy) was 136 grams. They both thrived with me. Please bear with me, I want to give you a back story in case it matters. Three days ago Rozey started going back and forth from one side of the cage to another (cage is 32" tall, 22" wide and 16" deep). She wasn't as interested in food but did stop for a few nibbles once in a while and go right back to the side to side thing. She also stopped playing with her brother and he tried really hard to wrestle and play with her. My husband had ordered a larger cage but it wasn't due here until the weekend and her behavior concerned me. I had the rehabber come and observe and she thought they should both go to a larger cage asap at her house. The next day I took them over there in a carrier. Her room had 3 other very large cages with 2 to 4 squirrels in each, it was very noisy. She thought we should put them in one of the cages with another male and female, I was concerned she told me it would be alright... my male innocently went into the cage, was chased and attacked, he flew back into the carrier which I had open by the cage door. Rozey was still in there and did not venture out. We then took them to a slightly smaller cage (it had one squirrel in there but we took her out and put her in another one) and Rozey went in no problem. Lemmy took a while. Anyway once Lemmy got in there Rozey (the back and forth girl) clung to the very top corner in the back of the cage with her nose to the corner, she didn't blink or move for the 45 minutes I was there...she was frozen! I petted her (which she always backed away from, just not very affectionate like Lemmy was) and she let me which was highly unusual, she wanted none of her favorite foods. The rehabber told me "she feels your stress" so I went home. When I got home she texted me and said she gently pulled Rozey off the cage and put her in her hammock (which I brought from home). She also later sent me a video of Rozey walking around the cage. This morning around 11:30 she told me that Rozey had not come down from her hammock. I decided to go over there and I was able to coax her out and get her to eat some. My rehabber said she feels like Rozey may have some neurological issues and may be unreleasable. She is very timid. I did notice that it was loud over there and every time a door opened or closed it would sound a voice alarm and scare her, the scraping of a chair on the floor scared her, as did other squirrel noises. I think she is extremely noise sensitive. My husband and I are very quiet people so it wasn't loud when she was with us. Lemmy doesn't seem to mind and is doing well. My questions are: if Rozey can't be released and has to come back home with me (to a larger cage of course) without Lemmy will she die of loneliness? Won't Lemmy be lonely without her in his cage when that happens? Will he be ok out in the wild not have his sister to be with? I have to go out of town for a week this coming weekend so I wasn't able to bring Rozey home with me. I'm afraid she will die of stress before I come back and am able to pick her up and bring her back with me...is that a possibility? I don't know how susceptible squirrels are to their emotions. Thank you so much for anyone's help and suggestions....I am sotorn up over this.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Hello seahorse and welcome to TSB.

    Thank you for helping these little ones.

    I don't have a lot of experience but a lot of folks on here do and they will be checking in from time to time.

    So check back here often.

    Meanwhile, current weights, diet, and pics if you have them will help.

    Diet is very important with these babies.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    If Hey Seahorse,

    So sorry you had this experience. Sounds like your babies were thrown in the middle of the maelstrom. Most often you can’t safely put squirrels together after 7 weeks old. It depends on the squirrel. But putting 2 sets of 14 weekers in a cage is a certain recipe for disaster. If you could, it would be good to get both kids back, but most likely you won’t be able to. Get the female back if you can. Both babies will do fine separated. It would be nice if your babies could be released together, but often you have a situation where they can’t.

    Why does the rehabber think the girl is neurologic? Is it because of the pacing? The pacing could mean that she is ready to go. Could you take a picture or video of the movement? Do you think she is neuro?
    redwuff
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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by redwuff View Post
    If Hey Seahorse,

    So sorry you had this experience. Sounds like your babies were thrown in the middle of the maelstrom. Most often you can’t safely put squirrels together after 7 weeks old. It depends on the squirrel. But putting 2 sets of 14 weekers in a cage is a certain recipe for disaster. If you could, it would be good to get both kids back, but most likely you won’t be able to. Get the female back if you can. Both babies will do fine separated. It would be nice if your babies could be released together, but often you have a situation where they can’t.

    Why does the rehabber think the girl is neurologic? Is it because of the pacing? The pacing could mean that she is ready to go. Could you take a picture or video of the movement? Do you think she is neuro?
    Thank you. The rehabber thinks she's neurologic because of the pacing, the "frozen" clinging to the cage and her timidness. I do not think she is neuro, she acted normal up until 3 days ago when she started the pacing....she ate well, she played, she explored...she was fine. The rehabber actually said I could take Rozey back when I get back from my trip but she want's Lemmy to stay. I'm not sure how to upload videos. I'll see if I can figure it out tomorrow. I have to go to bed now, I have an early morning. Thank you so much redwuff for taking the time to write with your advice.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by seahorse View Post
    Thank you. The rehabber thinks she's neurologic because of the pacing, the "frozen" clinging to the cage and her timidness. I do not think she is neuro, she acted normal up until 3 days ago when she started the pacing....she ate well, she played, she explored...she was fine. The rehabber actually said I could take Rozey back when I get back from my trip but she want's Lemmy to stay. I'm not sure how to upload videos. I'll see if I can figure it out tomorrow. I have to go to bed now, I have an early morning. Thank you so much redwuff for taking the time to write with your advice.
    I promise that everything she has done is perfectly normal and wise. When scared a squirrels response is either flight or freeze. Learn what you can from your mentor, get your license, and move on. You will find a lot of knowledge here. Any questions you have, bring them here and we will gladly help you.
    redwuff
    State Licensed
    Master Wildlife Rehabilitator

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by redwuff View Post
    I promise that everything she has done is perfectly normal and wise. When scared a squirrels response is either flight or freeze. Learn what you can from your mentor, get your license, and move on. You will find a lot of knowledge here. Any questions you have, bring them here and we will gladly help you.
    .I got them both back home into the small cage, I just had to have them in a quieter environment. All she did over there was stay in her hammock or cling to the back of the cage. As soon as I got her here she started the pacing, here is a link to the video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep8-BoGpsJw let me know what you think, there's nothing I can do until I get the cage on Friday.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by RockyPops View Post
    Hello seahorse and welcome to TSB.

    Thank you for helping these little ones.

    I don't have a lot of experience but a lot of folks on here do and they will be checking in from time to time.

    So check back here often.

    Meanwhile, current weights, diet, and pics if you have them will help.

    Diet is very important with these babies.
    Thank you Rocky, I appreciate your input. I don't have current weights, they were both over 250 grams when I quit weighing them about 3, 3 1/2 weeks ago. Not sure how to load pics up here.... Their diet consisted of baked squirrel crackers (they both got tired of boo balls), veggies like lettuce, squash, mushrooms, sweet potato, parsley, ss peas, corn, carrots, pomegranate, dried coconut, I also gave them a hazelnut after cleaning their cage and a pecan or walnut at the end of the day. I gave them applewood sticks to chew on....

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Wow... what a bad situation. The pacing back and forth isn’t necessarily a sign of neurological compromise. I’m sure the small cage was a contributing factor. That is a very small cage for two 14 week olds. When squirrels get bored, stressed or anxious some will pace back and forth. When they are nearing release in the release cage some will start pacing. That’s an indicator for me to open the release portal... in the appropriate season of course.

    I can’t imagine a rehabber that combines older squirrels in cages. I know that some can be combined in very large, open areas. They have enough space that territorial disputes are minimal. I know of a place in FL that has huge outside enclosures that combines them successfully. I think it’s a unique situation and not typical.

    Lemme won’t die without his sister and Rozey won’t die without Lemme but personally I prefer to keep them together. They have lost everything when they come into rehab and I just won’t take the last thing they have from them. Of course, a non-release situation changes things. I wouldn’t deem her a non-release at this point. It would be a shame to sentence her to a lifetime in a cage when all she wanted was freedom. Your description of the ‘new’ place sounds stressful to me also. My house is very quiet also so noise and chaos stresses me. Squirrels react to noise and strange things. She wasn’t reacting to YOUR anxiety, she was reacting to the chaos she was dropped into. She was scared to death.

    Is there any way you can walk this back? After your trip could Rozey come back home to the larger cage? I would tell the rehabber you want to start handling her in case she can’t be released. The last thing you want is a wild non-release. I would also want Lemme to come with her so that she wouldn’t be alone for the winter. A singleton can be overwintered but it is SO much easier with a friend, especially a sibling.

    Is there any way you can arrange to have ‘out of cage’ time in a controlled area? I know some ‘real’ rehabbers don’t believe in that and frankly they do reach a point where out of cage time is impractical.
    A little out of cage time might help with the pacing but hopefully the larger cage will help.
    Squirrels need to be given enrichment when they are overwintered. It helps with the boredom.
    Things like a roll of toilet paper will occupy them for a while. A paper towel roll with a nut inside with the ends rolled shut will give them a short project. Tree limbs and ropes also help. There are many ideas on this board.

    I guess that this rehabber is your mentor. ? If so you need to find out the rules in your state about non-releases. Most states make no provision for non-releases. Many rehabbers euthanize non-releases. If so, does your mentor follow the book? I would want to know that now rather than later when it is too late. If that’s the case, walking this back might be even more important. I would hate to see her deemed a NR because she paces and gets stressed in this hell hole. You made the investment in the cage.... I would bring them home. I know for a fact many of us have walked out, changed our minds or whatever when the situation didn’t pass the gut test. It just didn’t feel right so for better or worse, we left with our babies in tow.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by HRT4SQRLS View Post
    Wow... what a bad situation. The pacing back and forth isnít necessarily a sign of neurological compromise. Iím sure the small cage was a contributing factor. That is a very small cage for two 14 week olds. When squirrels get bored, stressed or anxious some will pace back and forth. When they are nearing release in the release cage some will start pacing. Thatís an indicator for me to open the release portal... in the appropriate season of course.

    I canít imagine a rehabber that combines older squirrels in cages. I know that some can be combined in very large, open areas. They have enough space that territorial disputes are minimal. I know of a place in FL that has huge outside enclosures that combines them successfully. I think itís a unique situation and not typical.

    Lemme wonít die without his sister and Rozey wonít die without Lemme but personally I prefer to keep them together. They have lost everything when they come into rehab and I just wonít take the last thing they have from them. Of course, a non-release situation changes things. I wouldnít deem her a non-release at this point. It would be a shame to sentence her to a lifetime in a cage when all she wanted was freedom. Your description of the Ďnewí place sounds stressful to me also. My house is very quiet also so noise and chaos stresses me. Squirrels react to noise and strange things. She wasnít reacting to YOUR anxiety, she was reacting to the chaos she was dropped into. She was scared to death.

    Is there any way you can walk this back? After your trip could Rozey come back home to the larger cage? I would tell the rehabber you want to start handling her in case she canít be released. The last thing you want is a wild non-release. I would also want Lemme to come with her so that she wouldnít be alone for the winter. A singleton can be overwintered but it is SO much easier with a friend, especially a sibling.

    Is there any way you can arrange to have Ďout of cageí time in a controlled area? I know some Ďrealí rehabbers donít believe in that and frankly they do reach a point where out of cage time is impractical.
    A little out of cage time might help with the pacing but hopefully the larger cage will help.
    Squirrels need to be given enrichment when they are overwintered. It helps with the boredom.
    Things like a roll of toilet paper will occupy them for a while. A paper towel roll with a nut inside with the ends rolled shut will give them a short project. Tree limbs and ropes also help. There are many ideas on this board.

    I guess that this rehabber is your mentor. ? If so you need to find out the rules in your state about non-releases. Most states make no provision for non-releases. Many rehabbers euthanize non-releases. If so, does your mentor follow the book? I would want to know that now rather than later when it is too late. If thatís the case, walking this back might be even more important. I would hate to see her deemed a NR because she paces and gets stressed in this hell hole. You made the investment in the cage.... I would bring them home. I know for a fact many of us have walked out, changed our minds or whatever when the situation didnít pass the gut test. It just didnít feel right so for better or worse, we left with our babies in tow.
    Thank you for taking the time to write....I don't think she has neurological issues either, she acted normal until the pacing started 3 days ago. I truly believe it was the noisy location. Yes the rehabber is my mentor. She suggested that when I get back I should take Rozey with me but without Lemmy. I just hope Rozey will be ok until then (that is 2 weeks away). I have given her toys, paper towel rolls, etc. and she played with everything up until three days ago. Even though I'm new at this my instincts have always been spot on and I feel like Rozey is ok and just needs a quiet place. Rozey was happy to see me when I went over there this afternoon. My mentor is against euthanization unless the squirrel is physically suffering. I will have to look up what the rules are in this state, I just moved here from California. I will not give up on Rozey! I will do what I have to to help her thrive. Thank you again for your advice HRT4SQRLS!

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by seahorse View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to write....I don't think she has neurological issues either, she acted normal until the pacing started 3 days ago. I truly believe it was the noisy location. Yes the rehabber is my mentor. She suggested that when I get back I should take Rozey with me but without Lemmy. I just hope Rozey will be ok until then (that is 2 weeks away). I have given her toys, paper towel rolls, etc. and she played with everything up until three days ago. Even though I'm new at this my instincts have always been spot on and I feel like Rozey is ok and just needs a quiet place. Rozey was happy to see me when I went over there this afternoon. My mentor is against euthanization unless the squirrel is physically suffering. I will have to look up what the rules are in this state, I just moved here from California. I will not give up on Rozey! I will do what I have to to help her thrive. Thank you again for your advice HRT4SQRLS!
    .I got them both back home into the small cage, I just had to have them in a quieter environment. All she did over there was stay in her hammock or cling to the back of the cage. As soon as I got her here she started the pacing, here is a link to the video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep8-BoGpsJw let me know what you think, there's nothing I can do until I get the cage on Friday.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Looks like to me that the bigger cage may help. That baby needs running room. LOL.

    Any way you could let them into a spare room, squirrel proofed of course, under supervision to run some energy off?

    I don't know if that's the problem but couldn't hurt..

    And thank you sooo much for bringing them back home together. I think sibling bonding is so important for their mental development.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by RockyPops View Post
    Looks like to me that the bigger cage may help. That baby needs running room. LOL.

    Any way you could let them into a spare room, squirrel proofed of course, under supervision to run some energy off?

    I don't know if that's the problem but couldn't hurt..

    And thank you sooo much for bringing them back home together. I think sibling bonding is so important for their mental development.
    We do have a back porch that's screened in but I did that once and they were impossible to get back in the cage! Lemmy actually bit me when I transferred him into the carrier today....not extremely hard but hard enough to draw blood. I doubt they would go back in the cage voluntarily. Poor Lemmy keeps getting knocked into, he was better off over there I think but all she did over there was stay in her hammock....sigh....

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by HRT4SQRLS View Post
    Wow... what a bad situation. The pacing back and forth isnít necessarily a sign of neurological compromise. Iím sure the small cage was a contributing factor. That is a very small cage for two 14 week olds. When squirrels get bored, stressed or anxious some will pace back and forth. When they are nearing release in the release cage some will start pacing. Thatís an indicator for me to open the release portal... in the appropriate season of course.

    I canít imagine a rehabber that combines older squirrels in cages. I know that some can be combined in very large, open areas. They have enough space that territorial disputes are minimal. I know of a place in FL that has huge outside enclosures that combines them successfully. I think itís a unique situation and not typical.

    Lemme wonít die without his sister and Rozey wonít die without Lemme but personally I prefer to keep them together. They have lost everything when they come into rehab and I just wonít take the last thing they have from them. Of course, a non-release situation changes things. I wouldnít deem her a non-release at this point. It would be a shame to sentence her to a lifetime in a cage when all she wanted was freedom. Your description of the Ďnewí place sounds stressful to me also. My house is very quiet also so noise and chaos stresses me. Squirrels react to noise and strange things. She wasnít reacting to YOUR anxiety, she was reacting to the chaos she was dropped into. She was scared to death.

    Is there any way you can walk this back? After your trip could Rozey come back home to the larger cage? I would tell the rehabber you want to start handling her in case she canít be released. The last thing you want is a wild non-release. I would also want Lemme to come with her so that she wouldnít be alone for the winter. A singleton can be overwintered but it is SO much easier with a friend, especially a sibling.

    Is there any way you can arrange to have Ďout of cageí time in a controlled area? I know some Ďrealí rehabbers donít believe in that and frankly they do reach a point where out of cage time is impractical.
    A little out of cage time might help with the pacing but hopefully the larger cage will help.
    Squirrels need to be given enrichment when they are overwintered. It helps with the boredom.
    Things like a roll of toilet paper will occupy them for a while. A paper towel roll with a nut inside with the ends rolled shut will give them a short project. Tree limbs and ropes also help. There are many ideas on this board.

    I guess that this rehabber is your mentor. ? If so you need to find out the rules in your state about non-releases. Most states make no provision for non-releases. Many rehabbers euthanize non-releases. If so, does your mentor follow the book? I would want to know that now rather than later when it is too late. If thatís the case, walking this back might be even more important. I would hate to see her deemed a NR because she paces and gets stressed in this hell hole. You made the investment in the cage.... I would bring them home. I know for a fact many of us have walked out, changed our minds or whatever when the situation didnít pass the gut test. It just didnít feel right so for better or worse, we left with our babies in tow.
    I forgot to answer....Yes, I was letting her out on the screened in back porch for a little while and she enjoyed that so much. I also had a couple of tree limbs in the cage which I will be able to put in the larger cage when it gets here.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    If it was me, I wouldn’t separate them. If you’re going to get Rozey back then I’d take Lemmy, too. As HRT said, you’ve already invested in a larger cage so you should put them both in it and evaluate them. It seems to me that evaluating the two of them together in their familiar surroundings, without the chaos at the mentors place, is the only way to determine if her behavior is a result of something neuro (which I doubt) or environmental.

    Two weeks is a long time for her to endure that chaos. I think it could definitely change her personality and make her very anxious and untrusting. Who knows if she’d go back to being the Rozey she was before you took her over there? Is there a reason why they can’t return to your larger cage now? Do you have someone that can feed them while you’re away? As was said, having each other for an over-winter situation is by far better than her being by herself. She may start playing with her brother again when they are both placed in a larger cage at your house.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1959 View Post
    If it was me, I wouldnít separate them. If youíre going to get Rozey back then Iíd take Lemmy, too. As HRT said, youíve already invested in a larger cage so you should put them both in it and evaluate them. It seems to me that evaluating the two of them together in their familiar surroundings, without the chaos at the mentors place, is the only way to determine if her behavior is a result of something neuro (which I doubt) or environmental.

    Two weeks is a long time for her to endure that chaos. I think it could definitely change her personality and make her very anxious and untrusting. Who knows if sheíd go back to being the Rozey she was before you took her over there? Is there a reason why they canít return to your larger cage now? Do you have someone that can feed them while youíre away? As was said, having each other for an over-winter situation is by far better than her being by herself. She may start playing with her brother again when they are both placed in a larger cage at your house.
    Hi Mel, I agree that 2 weeks is a long time to endure that chaos and i was afraid of what it may do to her permanently as well. No, I'm new here in this town and there is no one to feed her while we are gone. MY husband and I are both going to visit my parents for a week (they are old and sick and we have to go). The larger cage is not due to arrive until Friday and we are leaving Saturday. My heart is torn.

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    Default Re: sibling rehab/release question....torn

    If the cage arrives on Friday and you leave on Saturday could you put it together and ask your mentor to come over and feed them once a day? Obviously this is a very delicate situation since you donít want to upset your mentor, but maybe saying that youíre putting your squirrels best interest first might alleviate any hard feelings.

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