Esbilac UPDATE: OK to use

[Kasha]

PetAg Puppy milk replacer has not changed its ingredients. The labeling Made in the USA to Crafted in the USA was a regulatory issue only. Product is exactly the same. And made only in the USA.
Since the product has not changed and most people rehabbing squirrels are doing fine with it, the formula may not be the problem.
This product was intended for puppies not squirrels, so to say this product is defective is unfair without knowing facts. We Can only try to get close to mom's milk.
The Ebiliac Goats milk replacer is suggested for small mammals with a more sensitive system, being the calcium is finer and more easily digested, however does not have probiotics. We may have products we prefer over others. It's what we find works best.
It is possible these injuries are not related to the formula.
PetAg is sending me written information regarding this issue and I will post for you to see and make your own determination. I understand some opinions are being clouded here by the emotional nature, however can we please be kind and help each other? We are all here for the same reason.

[Spanky]

PetAg Puppy milk replacer has not changed its ingredients. The labeling Made in the USA to Crafted in the USA was a regulatory issue only. Product is exactly the same. And made only in the USA.
Since the product has not changed and most people rehabbing squirrels are doing fine with it, the formula may not be the problem.
This product was intended for puppies not squirrels, so to say this product is defective is unfair without knowing facts. We Can only try to get close to mom's milk.
The Ebiliac Goats milk replacer is suggested for small mammals with a more sensitive system, being the calcium is finer and more easily digested, however does not have probiotics. We may have products we prefer over others. It's what we find works best.
It is possible these injuries are not related to the formula.
PetAg is sending me written information regarding this issue and I will post for you to see and make your own determination. I understand some opinions are being clouded here by the emotional nature, however can we please be kind and help each other? We are all here for the same reason.

It would be great if you would post any info they share with you for comparison as to what we have already received from PetAg.

While the ingredients list or amounts may not have changed, the dicalcium phosphate itself has changed... maybe a different supplier, a different "grade"... what ever but PetAg themselves is the source of the information we base the statements about the “ingredient particles” of the calcium may be too large to be properly digested by small mammals... PetAg specifically mentioned squirrels and opossums.

The Crafted / Made in USA is anecdotal, but we are encouraging everyone to switch from Esbilac to be safe... we are using the "Crafted" versus "Made" to help folks understand how great of risk their baby squirrel may have. Anecdotally, the "Crafted" cans are the ones almost everyone.. if not everyone... that has come to TSB with this problem were using. We've seen no issues with those using the "Made in the USA" version... this part may be shaded by emotions, but in the end everyone should stop feeding Esbilac to squirrels. Even PetAg said as much.

[Kasha]

I will post as soon as I receive the information coming directly from PetAg. Can you do the Same? Us translating what we hear is subjective and may be taken out of context. Let's put it in their writings from here on so we deal with facts.
Who at PetAg said not to use this product? I spoke with them yesterday and all they can say is their product has NOT changed at all and these are rumors going around that are not true, they are getting many calls because of these rumors and being told what I am saying (who told you that the product has changed?) but if you feel its to blame, by all means stop using it.
There are other possibilities that should be considered, before everyone should blame it on a product that has worked well in the past and has not changed.
Many of us are using this product and having 100% healthy squirrels raised from sickly Neonates. I only joined this forum because the rumors had me worried too! I don't just believe what someone says however, I research. And will continue to do so until I have all the facts.To say "unequivocally" this product is causing your heartbreaking baby problems is simply not true at this point. It is your opinion.
I received a private message from "Spanky" Yesterday. So to Spanky, I am unable to open that message, please post your message here. I prefer 100% transparency anyways in an open forum .

[Mel1959]

I will post as soon as I receive the information coming directly from PetAg. Can you do the Same? Us translating what we hear is subjective and may be taken out of context. Let's put it in their writings from here on so we deal with facts.
Who at PetAg said not to use this product? I spoke with them yesterday and all they can say is their product has NOT changed at all and these are rumors going around that are not true, they are getting many calls because of these rumors and being told what I am saying (who told you that the product has changed?) but if you feel its to blame, by all means stop using it.
There are other possibilities that should be considered, before everyone should blame it on a product that has worked well in the past and has not changed.
Many of us are using this product and having 100% healthy squirrels raised from sickly Neonates. I only joined this forum because the rumors had me worried too! I don't just believe what someone says however, I research. And will continue to do so until I have all the facts.To say "unequivocally" this product is causing your heartbreaking baby problems is simply not true at this point. It is your opinion.
I received a private message from "Spanky" Yesterday. So to Spanky, I am unable to open that message, please post your message here. I prefer 100% transparency anyways in an open forum .

The information that several of us at TSB received came directly from Samantha at PetAg. It is not a rumor. As stated, they may not have changed their formula but that’s not to say a distributor or supplier for their dicalcium phosphate didn’t change its source. Dicalcium phosphate comes in many different grades at a very different cost associated with each. The lesser the grade the coarser the particle and the more impurities allowed.

I noticed a change in the formula immediately. I had two older cans that had been stored in the freezer. I used them with no problems. The formula was smooth and mixed well. When those cans were gone I purchased another can from Amazon. I could immediately tell a difference in mixing and a grainy, oily residue was left inside and at the bottom of my mixing container, in spite of repeatedly whisking and shaking with a mixing ball. This was not my imagination. I’m not a newbie. My old cans said “Made in the USA” the new can said “Crafted in the USA”.

I reached out to PetAg and spoke to Samantha. She took the lot number of my new can so they could investigate. After doing so, PetAg made a statement about the dicalcium phosphate. She also sent me a replacement can of Esbilac (crafted in the USA) and a can of Goats Milk Esbilac (crafted in the USA). The Esbilac mixed up grainy, but the Goats Milk Esbilac mixed smooth. This led me to believe that the GM Esbilac might be ok to use. But not wanting to take a chance with the well being of baby squirrels, I won’t be using it.

My belief about Esbilac and the current problem is not based on emotion, as you suggest. I do not have sickly animals as a result of using the new Esbilac. My belief is based on fact.

I look forward to reading the response you receive from PetAg.

[Milo's Mom]

Statement coming straight from PetAg to masses of people on their letterhead.

[Kasha]

I just got off the phone with Samantha Hays. She states she did not Say to stop using Esbilac. However you should stop using it if you feel its a problem of course.
I received email info from PetAg. As stated the goats formula does have a finer partical form for the calcium than the puppy Formula. Works fine for the intended. Small wildlife May have issues since it was not designed for wildlife.
They are going to add the finer product to the puppy Formula to aid the wildlife community however which is a wonderful thing.
Is there an.email address I can forward this too? Not sure this attachment will go through.
Look forward to seeing your information from PetAg as well.

[Milo's Mom]

PetAg Response 092519.pdf

Response to FAQ's

[Kasha]

Thank you Milo's Mom for a direct correspondence from PetAg. I have that as well as 2 others that may be helpful.

[Kasha]

I see Milo's Mom did send PDF of the info I too received.
Thank you!

[Spanky]

Who at PetAg said not to use this product?
I spoke with them yesterday and all they can say is their product has NOT changed at all and these are rumors going around that are not true, they are getting many calls because of these rumors and being told what I am saying (who told you that the product has changed?) but if you feel its to blame, by all means stop using it.
There are other possibilities that should be considered, before everyone should blame it on a product that has worked well in the past and has not changed.
Many of us are using this product and having 100% healthy squirrels raised from sickly Neonates. I only joined this forum because the rumors had me worried too! I don't just believe what someone says however, I research. And will continue to do so until I have all the facts.To say "unequivocally" this product is causing your heartbreaking baby problems is simply not true at this point. It is your opinion.
I received a private message from "Spanky" Yesterday. So to Spanky, I am unable to open that message, please post your message here. I prefer 100% transparency anyways in an open forum .

I am "Spanky" and it was me that sent you the same information that Milo's Mom posted. It is very clear to many of us that the commonality of the heartbreaking baby problems is, in fact, the Esbilac formula. I won't risk babies by using the PetAg product so I will not recommend it to others. I personally did not experience this problem with my babies, but I have 8 (and counting) that have come under my care that have been devastated. It is heartbreaking. Many have come from rehabbers with years and years of experience that could not figure out what was wrong... they did not have the advantage of forums like TSB. I have seen the turn-around up close and it is personal for me. The purpose of this board is to share our collective experiences and that is what we have done.

We have seen dozens and dozens of examples of babies doign an almost immediate turn-around when taken off Esbilac. Unfortunately many will have unfortunately have permanent deficits.

This is prolific problem this fall season. Not something we have seen before now. Our decision to stop recommending basically what was the only long-proven "off-the-shelf" formula available to those caring for squirrels was not done lightly. In fact, we probably delayed longer than we should have before taking a position that Esbilac is causing problems.

Here is a very compelling example of what is happening if you have not already seen this thread:
https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...82#post1299282

[Spanky]

Thank you Milo's Mom for a direct correspondence from PetAg. I have that as well as 2 others that may be helpful.

If you e-mail to (removed e-mail address) and I will post them here in this thread.

[Spanky]

I just got off the phone with Samantha Hays. She states she did not Say to stop using Esbilac. However you should stop using it if you feel its a problem of course.

The letter (PDF) Milo's Mom posted clear states the form of dicalcium phosphate has changed from the past and "appears" to be more difficult for small mammals to absorb (I myself have no doubts). The letter goes on to recommend Esbilac Goat's Milk during PetAg's transition / change to restoring a more finely milled form of calcium to Esbilac. Maybe it is me but I read that as stop using the Esbilac.

PetAg representatives want to do nothing to impact their sales... they are, after all, representing PetAg.

[kcassidy]

I guess while I’m on it I might as well let my opinion be known on this as well.

I have never been more disappointed than I am with the statement issued by Chris’s Squirrel and More regarding this very REAL problem.
You can read it on the website and decide for yourself. Seriously!?

I was hurt, angry and stunned by her website post/statement, further maddened by the email blast and now Esbilac is sending people to her site from their company website. WTF.

I sent Chris an email letting her know how upset I was and her response back was beyond mind boggling. I shared it with a few others and they were just as flabbergasted as I was by her response. It's a bummer that she is the only game in town when it comes to Miracle Nipples and syringes, I will not buy another thing from her website ever again and will still buy her Miracle supplies but I'll get them from Amazon and/or Henry's.

Shame on her for putting herself first and the squirrels 2nd. I also would love to know why she has Esbilac listed as Out of Stock, yet she states it is perfectly fine to use.

[kcassidy]

I will post as soon as I receive the information coming directly from PetAg. Can you do the Same? Us translating what we hear is subjective and may be taken out of context. Let's put it in their writings from here on so we deal with facts.
Who at PetAg said not to use this product? I spoke with them yesterday and all they can say is their product has NOT changed at all and these are rumors going around that are not true, they are getting many calls because of these rumors and being told what I am saying (who told you that the product has changed?) but if you feel its to blame, by all means stop using it.
There are other possibilities that should be considered, before everyone should blame it on a product that has worked well in the past and has not changed.
Many of us are using this product and having 100% healthy squirrels raised from sickly Neonates. I only joined this forum because the rumors had me worried too! I don't just believe what someone says however, I research. And will continue to do so until I have all the facts.To say "unequivocally" this product is causing your heartbreaking baby problems is simply not true at this point. It is your opinion.
I received a private message from "Spanky" Yesterday. So to Spanky, I am unable to open that message, please post your message here. I prefer 100% transparency anyways in an open forum .

You have made six posts to the group and this is your definitive findings on the Esbilac disaster? May I ask how many squirrels you've raised 100% healthy from Esbilac? When was your Esbilac purchased? Do you have the Lot #'s? Would you be willing to submit samples of your formula to the Casey's who are doing scientific testing on samples. Everyone has been sending in their samples that killed our squirrels so it would be great to get samples of "good" Esbilac.

Rumors - very insulting. I have had numerous squirrels die and also get very sick on this years Esbilac. As soon as I stopped using Esbilac, those that were still alive immediately started showing improvements. I have pictures, documentation on all of it. The broken limbs, the failure to thrive, blackened bellies. I also have lots of xrays of squirrel skeletons that look like a pile of broken twigs, failure to thrive, then thriving after the switch from more than 50 people. This isn't some rumor. We aren't out to "get" PetAg. We are worried about our squirrels, worried about others squirrels and worried for babies we will get in the Spring.

I do not appreciate being called a rumor spreader or an internet fear mongerer as that is NOT what I am and have never been. I like science, I like research and I feel getting to the bottom of an issue like this requires all that. It's why I'm throwing my lot in with the Casey's. They know nutrition and they are sending everything to labs for testing.

Why this issue affects some squirrels and not others is something I'm hoping they can explain. I had squirrels who died as well as squirrels who looked great all eating the same mix of formula. I mixed it correctly, with the water at the correct temperature. I know my peers did the same thing, it isn't that this year we effed up preparing formula unlike all the previous years. I will not feed Esbilac again unless they come forward and explain what was wrong and what they did to fix it. I don't think they did it on purpose, but they will do whatever they have to to protect their bottom line.

[Mel1959]

I was hurt, angry and stunned by her website post/statement, further maddened by the email blast and now Esbilac is sending people to her site from their company website. WTF.

I sent Chris an email letting her know how upset I was and her response back was beyond mind boggling. I shared it with a few others and they were just as flabbergasted as I was by her response. It's a bummer that she is the only game in town when it comes to Miracle Nipples and syringes, I will not buy another thing from her website ever again and will still buy her Miracle supplies but I'll get them from Amazon and/or Henry's.

Shame on her for putting herself first and the squirrels 2nd. I also would love to know why she has Esbilac listed as Out of Stock, yet she states it is perfectly fine to use.

Kim, please read the last line of the PDF letter that PetAg sent to multiple people, but Milo’s Mom posted on this thread. That line explains the questions you post about Chris’s stance on the Esbilac issue....PARTNERS, seriously? No further explanation needed.

My guess is Kasha is in Chris’s back pocket, which also requires no further explanation.

I think we all know that by listing Esbilac “out of stock” allows her to save face and not admit there’s a problem. Really? We’re smarter than that!

[Milo's Mom]

I'm not defending Chris at all, not even a little, but has anyone thought that maybe she has contractual obligations and we need to read between the lines? Her words are worthless but her action of out of stock Esbilac speaks volumes.

EDIT...or did PetAg pull it cause they didnt know what else to do because they already knew?

[Mel1959]

I'm not defending Chris at all, not even a little, but has anyone thought that maybe she has contractual obligations and we need to read between the lines? Her words are worthless but her action of out of stock Esbilac speaks volumes.

EDIT...or did PetAg pull it cause they didnt know what else to do because they already knew?

Who knows!?

[kcassidy]

Kim, please read the last line of the PDF letter that PetAg sent to multiple people, but Milo’s Mom posted on this thread. That line explains the questions you post about Chris’s stance on the Esbilac issue....PARTNERS, seriously? No further explanation needed.

My guess is Kasha is in Chris’s back pocket, which also requires no further explanation.

I think we all know that by listing Esbilac “out of stock” allows her to save face and not admit there’s a problem. Really? We’re smarter than that!

Hey Mel, I didn't need to read MM's response, I saw the letter earlier today, actually Gayle read it to me this morning while I was driving At first I started to bluster but in reality, how many shops are out there that sell wildlife supplies in the quantites that CSM does. I'm assuming she is their biggest wildlife distributor so sending people to her makes sense as far as they are concerned.

[kcassidy]

I'm not defending Chris at all, not even a little, but has anyone thought that maybe she has contractual obligations and we need to read between the lines? Her words are worthless but her action of out of stock Esbilac speaks volumes.

EDIT...or did PetAg pull it cause they didnt know what else to do because they already knew?

No I do not believe she was forced to write that. From communications with Chris she never said something of that nature, therefore I don't believe it to be the case. What I do believe based on those same communications that she truly believes Esbilac is not the issue here. She has said it point blank to more than myself. She comes out and says it in her email and website statement.

I have always respected Chris and thought she knew her squirrels, I guess she is still good at rehabbing them, but I no longer trust her at all and as I said in another post, I'm not buying from her website ever again, unless she retracts her statements.

[Javarat]

Person with MBD Opossum Group started a spreadsheet with Esbilac batch numbers and symptoms.
Overall, she thinks we are looking at both hypocalcemia (low calcium levels) AND hyperphosphatemia (elevated phosphates) with the new Esbilac.
The hypocalcemia can lead to MBD. The hyperphosphatemia can cause diarrhea, liver damage, and renal failure. End result is abdominal fluid buildup, which looks like bloating, but is actually terminal organ failure. (Like the three I lost).