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Thread: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Javarat View Post
    Person with MBD Opossum Group started a spreadsheet with Esbilac batch numbers and symptoms.
    Overall, she thinks we are looking at both hypocalcemia (low calcium levels) AND hyperphosphatemia (elevated phosphates) with the new Esbilac.
    The hypocalcemia can lead to MBD. The hyperphosphatemia can cause diarrhea, liver damage, and renal failure. End result is abdominal fluid buildup, which looks like bloating, but is actually terminal organ failure. (Like the three I lost).
    Ugh
    redwuff
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    Master Wildlife Rehabilitator

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by kcassidy View Post
    No I do not believe she was forced to write that. From communications with Chris she never said something of that nature, therefore I don't believe it to be the case. What I do believe based on those same communications that she truly believes Esbilac is not the issue here. She has said it point blank to more than myself. She comes out and says it in her email and website statement.

    I have always respected Chris and thought she knew her squirrels, I guess she is still good at rehabbing them, but I no longer trust her at all and as I said in another post, I'm not buying from her website ever again, unless she retracts her statements.
    After reading this thread I checked out Chris's site out of curiosity.

    http://squirrelsandmore.com/pages/es...-2019-concerns

    Is this the statement you are referring to, or is this a more recent one? I guess my question is, does this seem like a retraction to you or is this the statement you have issues with?

    She signs it "Wildlife rehabilitator first, business owner second" almost as if she is addressing specific people.

  3. #83
    Kasha is offline Account closed by request
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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    What is wrong with you people? We come to this site for help and where we think others are going through the Same problems ...not to be bullied or accused of some devious plot.
    Think of how many people get out of this site as soon as they log on...I'm done with it too.
    I would LOVE to be involved in a study if it is to help the animals. I do not lower myself to insult others because they have opinions that differ from my own. You want to blame a product with out having FACTS. Go ahead. That does not help these squirrels or any other animals. I find the first people to bully are the problem. Quick to Blame anything and anyone instead of looking inward.
    Complain to each other....that will solve the issue.
    Ridiculous

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chirps View Post
    After reading this thread I checked out Chris's site out of curiosity.

    http://squirrelsandmore.com/pages/es...-2019-concerns

    Is this the statement you are referring to, or is this a more recent one? I guess my question is, does this seem like a retraction to you or is this the statement you have issues with?

    She signs it "Wildlife rehabilitator first, business owner second" almost as if she is addressing specific people.
    Yes this is what I'm talking about. It is that she is saying Esbilac isn't the problem people are that is bothering many of us. As well as telling people to keep using Esbilac I don't see anything about retracting, what are you referring to?
    Kim Cassidy
    Licensed NY Wildlife Rehabilitator

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Bye bye Chris, ahem Kasha

    I know she is gone but I'm so effing sick of people shouting bullying when I disagree with them or question their shoddy logic. That is what I find ridiculous!
    Kim Cassidy
    Licensed NY Wildlife Rehabilitator

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Member waiting for advise on what to do for baby fed baby Esbilac that stopped eating 10 days ago.

    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...74#post1301474

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by kcassidy View Post
    Yes this is what I'm talking about. It is that she is saying Esbilac isn't the problem people are that is bothering many of us. As well as telling people to keep using Esbilac I don't see anything about retracting, what are you referring to?
    I'm not referring to anything, because I don't know if what she has up there now is her original statement or if she had tweaked it to try to appease? get on the same side of? people she has alienated. She does at least admit that PetAg had finally come to the same conclusion the sharp-eyed, diligent people here had already reached about the calcium.

    I guess it doesn't matter since she's gone, but I think Kasha really sold the people here short. I have been repeatedly amazed in thread after thread seeing how people get together and compare data and information and EXPERIENCES to arrive at conclusions such as this Esbilac one. She said, "You want to blame a product without having FACTS." But you all DO have facts, finally confirmed by none other than PetAg.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasha View Post
    What is wrong with you people? We come to this site for help and where we think others are going through the Same problems ...not to be bullied or accused of some devious plot.
    Think of how many people get out of this site as soon as they log on...I'm done with it too.
    I would LOVE to be involved in a study if it is to help the animals. I do not lower myself to insult others because they have opinions that differ from my own. You want to blame a product with out having FACTS. Go ahead. That does not help these squirrels or any other animals. I find the first people to bully are the problem. Quick to Blame anything and anyone instead of looking inward.
    Complain to each other....that will solve the issue.
    Ridiculous
    This was a very odd poster.
    She made an account, and then defended (bad) 'crafted in the USA' cans of Esbilac while she added cream for calcium to (good) 'Made in the USA' cans, like she did not actually understand the problem.
    And then she got mad and deleted her account because people where spreading 'unsubstantiated rumors without FACTS'.. while she was telling people to "never buy Esbilac from Amazon because they may be fake".

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Update 10/02/2019
    As a result of the Esbilac fiasco the following is a "permanent" formula for use for babies up to 4 weeks old.

    hGMF+ (Homemade Goat's Milk Formula Plus (Not temporary, for use in babies up to 4 weeks)):


    • 3 parts Goat's Milk
    • 3 parts plain yogurt
    • 2 parts heavy cream
    • 1 Egg Yolk for per cup of formula


    To make 1 Cup of formula:

    • 6 Tablespoons of Goat's Milk
    • 6 Tablespoons of yogurt
    • 4 Tablespoons of heavy cream
    • 1 Egg Yolk for per cup of formula


    To make 1/2 Cup of formula:


    • 3 Tablespoons of Goat's Milk
    • 3 Tablespoons of yogurt
    • 2 Tablespoons of heavy cream
    • 1/2 Egg Yolk for per cup of formula (The unused 1/2 egg yolk can be saved in the fridge (covered) for the next day's batch)


    We consider this to be super-perishable, so 24 hours in the fridge max.

    (I also updated the initial post of this thread, but considering most of us do not re-read the initial post of a thread we are following, I am posting it here also so everyone (hopefully) will see this update.)

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Question please so is that liquid goats milk? If you buy th powdered do we just mix it to the directions on the can/bag first then add the other ingredients?

    Can this be frozen after mixing?

    Thank YOu in advance.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    So I have done some reading.

    Meyenburg has the fresh goats milk, in a carton; and they also have condensed, which is liquid in a can, and powdered dry milk, also in a can.

    According to the Meyenburg site, the liquid condensed has had half of the water in it reduced, so you would reconstitute it 1:1 - if you needed 3 Tablespoons of goats milk, you would mix 1.5 Tbsp of the evaporated liquid with 1.5 Tbsp of water.

    The powdered comes in 12oz cans which the site says makes 3 quarts (or 96 ounces). That means that you mix EIGHT parts of water to ONE part of the milk powder to make whole goats milk.

    Everyone just needs to make sure to turn these forms of the product into milk FIRST, then proceed with the recipe.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by BCChins View Post
    Question please so is that liquid goats milk? If you buy the powdered do we just mix it to the directions on the can/bag first then add the other ingredients?
    Yes, the recipe directions are for liquid goat's milk. If you use powdered Goat's Milk, follow the directions for mixing up the powdered Goat's Milk separately then use that prepared liquid milk in the recipe provided.

    Meyenberg (the most popular by far I am sure) directions are 8 parts water to 1 part powder. There is a 2 tablespoon scoop in the can and the directions read to use a loose (not packed) scoop of powder... just FYI. Once mixed, the plain Goat's Milk should be stored in the fridge and discarded after 5 days. Also worth noting, Meyenburg says once the can is opened it the powder remains good only for 2 months stored in a dry cool place.

    Thanks for asking, I will work on incorporating the info on powdered Goat's Milk into the post as I am certain the powdered Goat's Milk will be the only option for many finders.


    Quote Originally Posted by BCChins View Post
    Can this be frozen after mixing?
    Something we are unsure about so we cannot recommend freezing at this time though we also understand how much less work having this option might be. As of now, the babies on the new hGMF+ are all doing very well but the recipe (understandably) is subject to change over time as more experience is gained.

  18. #93
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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    We need to ask someone who is using this right now if they could pour some in a container, cover it, freeze it, thaw it and tell us what happens. I am not worried about it affecting freshness or anything like that but I think it might separate and not mix back together well...

    My local Walmart has the two alternative versions and I am going to check real life next time I am there to make sure these directions are okay. I am pretty confident with what the site said though - they just changed all of their label art and logo and stuff and that is what is up on the site, so I think the info on those labels is accurate (have run into old "art" on sites before).

    So they change their labels and suddenly they experience this surge in sales...they are going to think that their marketing people are geniuses and it will all be squirrel people...

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    On the subject of the calcium issue with new lots of Esbilac, I wanted to state my unhappiness with PetAg claiming that the formula is still suitable for puppies. The dicalcium phosphate being coarsely ground means that it sinks to the bottom of formula and cannot be properly constituted. The calcium particles are much heavier than the formula and are almost invariably left behind after mixing or feeding. No matter how vigorously you mix the formula, no matter how hot you make the water, the dicalcium phosphate will not blend into the formula. I can't see how this can be good for puppies, even if they may be large enough to digest the calcium particles if they actually did consume them in the first place. I also think it's a bit hard to verify that very small neonatal puppies would be able to absorb the calcium properly either, and I would be suspicious of that. Either way, it's likely that the large, grainy particles of calcium will just sink to the bottom of the formula and never be consumed in the first place, which sounds pretty dangerous to me.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by theletterv View Post
    On the subject of the calcium issue with new lots of Esbilac, I wanted to state my unhappiness with PetAg claiming that the formula is still suitable for puppies. The dicalcium phosphate being coarsely ground means that it sinks to the bottom of formula and cannot be properly constituted. The calcium particles are much heavier than the formula and are almost invariably left behind after mixing or feeding. No matter how vigorously you mix the formula, no matter how hot you make the water, the dicalcium phosphate will not blend into the formula. I can't see how this can be good for puppies, even if they may be large enough to digest the calcium particles if they actually did consume them in the first place. I also think it's a bit hard to verify that very small neonatal puppies would be able to absorb the calcium properly either, and I would be suspicious of that. Either way, it's likely that the large, grainy particles of calcium will just sink to the bottom of the formula and never be consumed in the first place, which sounds pretty dangerous to me.
    Precisely... I couldn’t agree more. I believe our baby squirrels are the ‘canaries in the coal mine’ for puppies. Due to their tiny size they crashed first but eventually you will see this issue in puppies. It will take longer but, what’s bad for squirrels is bad for puppies. I have no doubt in my mind.

    Of course if PetAg acknowledged it was harmful to puppies they would have to recall it, so, that’s not going to happen.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by BCChins View Post
    Question please so is that liquid goats milk? If you buy th powdered do we just mix it to the directions on the can/bag first then add the other ingredients?

    Can this be frozen after mixing?

    Thank YOu in advance.

    I mainly rehab fawns..that is what we specialize in. Squirrels are becoming a quick second now.

    I use Meyenberg powder until they transition over to the replacer mixture I use. I have spoken to Meyenberg many times over the years.

    I have been told, yes, Meyenberg can be frozen.

    I have never had to freeze it for more than a week or so, but if I recall, they say safe to freeze for 6 months.

    You can call Meyenberg. They have been very helpful to me over the years.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by etwr View Post
    I mainly rehab fawns..that is what we specialize in. Squirrels are becoming a quick second now.

    I use Meyenberg powder until they transition over to the replacer mixture I use. I have spoken to Meyenberg many times over the years.

    I have been told, yes, Meyenberg can be frozen.

    I have never had to freeze it for more than a week or so, but if I recall, they say safe to freeze for 6 months.

    You can call Meyenberg. They have been very helpful to me over the years.
    Thanks for that info on Meyenberg. Good to know.

    The way I am reading BCChins's and others' posts the concern seems to be in attempting to freeze the formula after it is mixed. (Correct me if you were only asking about the goat's milk.) I would expect formula cannot be frozen based on my mother's attempts to freeze chicken eggs. Yogurt and heavy cream get lumpy after thawing. Maybe they can be stirred smooth again, but I suspect the egg yolk is going to make little chewy bits that won't dissolve.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chirps View Post
    Thanks for that info on Meyenberg. Good to know.

    The way I am reading BCChins's and others' posts the concern seems to be in attempting to freeze the formula after it is mixed. (Correct me if you were only asking about the goat's milk.) I would expect formula cannot be frozen based on my mother's attempts to freeze chicken eggs. Yogurt and heavy cream get lumpy after thawing. Maybe they can be stirred smooth again, but I suspect the egg yolk is going to make little chewy bits that won't dissolve.

    As far as freezing after mixed with the yogurt, HWC and egg yolk, I have no clue.

    Not sure if they were asking full mixture or just the goat milk after mixing.

    Goat milk powder, I have done it tons of times and it thaws out perfectly.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Is there still a problem with the esbilac? Got a little flyer and I don't want to get any if there is still an issue with it.

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    Default Re: Esbilac Warning (Fall 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rice Vinegar View Post
    Is there still a problem with the esbilac? Got a little flyer and I don't want to get any if there is still an issue with it.
    Yes there is. Since they are not pulling any of the bad stock from the shelves and have not even geared up to start producing something that doesn't kill yet, I would say we will be dealing with this for years because people who don't know about it will keep buying it. I would do the new goats milk formula with the egg (that part is very important for your flyer - they need the protein). When he is a little older you should be able to transition him to the Fox Valley 20/50. If you have any specific questions, start your own thread for your baby. OK, basically we want pictures of him/her!

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