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Thread: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

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    Default Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Recently made a post about "glass bones" squirrel, wasn't sure if I should add to that or make new post, but I really need some advice from someone experienced with mbd.

    I was giving all three 7.5 week old babies Tums (pink berry flavored) for treatment of mbd. This morning when I got up early to check on them, they had VOMITED all over their box! It was for sure vomit, The whole box reeked of puke and one still had pink vomit around his mouth. I'm currently on high alert for AP, but so far no clicking. What else can I do for them since they don't seem to be tolerating the Tums??? They also hate FV, and refuse to eat if I mix more than 50/50 esbilac and FV. They didn't really care for the GMF either when they were on it when they were younger. Should I try the GME? Add liquid calcium supplement to the esbilac that they will eat? Try to make a slurry using blocks? I'm just not sure what would be the next best thing to do??

    Here's exactly what I did with the Tums/mbd treatment. Is there something I could do differently?

    Crushed (2) 750mg berry flavored Tums, for a total of 1500mg, and mixed with 15 MLS water to make (15) 1 ml doses=100mg each for a total of 500mg (5ml) for each squirrel given as (5) 1 ml doses every few hours staggered with feedings.

    I don't have the bottle with me to see what the total elemental calcium is. I was worried it actually wasn't enough because the elemental calcium mg was lower, but I didn't want to overwhelm their little guts with a formula change and calcium mega dose, so was going to raise calcium once they were eating FV. But apparently they have other ideas.

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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lake Gypsy View Post
    Recently made a post about "glass bones" squirrel, wasn't sure if I should add to that or make new post, but I really need some advice from someone experienced with mbd.

    I was giving all three 7.5 week old babies Tums (pink berry flavored) for treatment of mbd. This morning when I got up early to check on them, they had VOMITED all over their box! It was for sure vomit, The whole box reeked of puke and one still had pink vomit around his mouth. I'm currently on high alert for AP, but so far no clicking. What else can I do for them since they don't seem to be tolerating the Tums??? They also hate FV, and refuse to eat if I mix more than 50/50 esbilac and FV. They didn't really care for the GMF either when they were on it when they were younger. Should I try the GME? Add liquid calcium supplement to the esbilac that they will eat? Try to make a slurry using blocks? I'm just not sure what would be the next best thing to do??

    Here's exactly what I did with the Tums/mbd treatment. Is there something I could do differently?

    Crushed (2) 750mg berry flavored Tums, for a total of 1500mg, and mixed with 15 MLS water to make (15) 1 ml doses=100mg each for a total of 500mg (5ml) for each squirrel given as (5) 1 ml doses every few hours staggered with feedings.

    I don't have the bottle with me to see what the total elemental calcium is. I was worried it actually wasn't enough because the elemental calcium mg was lower, but I didn't want to overwhelm their little guts with a formula change and calcium mega dose, so was going to raise calcium once they were eating FV. But apparently they have other ideas.
    That’s a little confusing to me. Because these are babies the recommended calcium amount is 50mg every 4 hrs for the first day, per the MBD treatment protocol. 50mg isn’t that much. If I was in your situation I would buy pure calcium carbonate powder. Henry’s Healthy Pets sells it. They have a measurement scale on the package. I would add the calcium to the formula. If they will take the 50:50 I would do that.

    I think you overwhelmed them with too much calcium with too great a volume over a period of time. Slow and stead wins the race.


    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...-MBD-Treatment

    https://www.henryspets.com/calcium-c...-powder-100-g/

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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Have these 3 started eating blocks or anything else. Usually at this age they want to inhale everything. How much and how often are they eating? Have they ever been good eaters?
    redwuff
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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    idk how to multi quote but this to part is in response to HRT4SQRLS- sorry, that came out super confusing, i was at work and trying to post quickly on lunch break (and remember all the dosing in my head!) They had through out the day a total of 300 mg calcium each.

    I did get some plain calcium tablets last night and also the needed supplies for gmf. I also placed some seashells and a cuttlebone in their box and all three had a good chew sesh. I gave them a couple rounds of hydration fluid, i think vomiting whacked out their electrolytes. I mixed the gmf and fv and They hogged it down! I haven't given them any calcium tablets yet, i wanted to get them back to baseline and then try again.



    Quote Originally Posted by redwuff View Post
    Have these 3 started eating blocks or anything else. Usually at this age they want to inhale everything. How much and how often are they eating? Have they ever been good eaters?
    They are supremely uninterested in the blocks. Unless i hold them they might take a few nibbles, but that's about it. so every day i hold them and hand feed them a block just so they'll eat it. Once i can order some things from Henry's i want to get some of their blocks, and the calcium supplement. They are pretty resistant to eating new stuff. They've had access to blocks for weeks, but totally ignore them. I think I'm going to blend some blocks into a paste, kinda like the base for squirrel cookies, and see if they'll eat that.

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    Nancy in New York (09-11-2019)

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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Please make sure that your calcium tablets have no vitamin D, ok?

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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lake Gypsy View Post
    idk how to multi quote but this to part is in response to HRT4SQRLS- sorry, that came out super confusing, i was at work and trying to post quickly on lunch break (and remember all the dosing in my head!) They had through out the day a total of 300 mg calcium each.

    I did get some plain calcium tablets last night and also the needed supplies for gmf. I also placed some seashells and a cuttlebone in their box and all three had a good chew sesh. I gave them a couple rounds of hydration fluid, i think vomiting whacked out their electrolytes. I mixed the gmf and fv and They hogged it down! I haven't given them any calcium tablets yet, i wanted to get them back to baseline and then try again.





    They are supremely uninterested in the blocks. Unless i hold them they might take a few nibbles, but that's about it. so every day i hold them and hand feed them a block just so they'll eat it. Once i can order some things from Henry's i want to get some of their blocks, and the calcium supplement. They are pretty resistant to eating new stuff. They've had access to blocks for weeks, but totally ignore them. I think I'm going to blend some blocks into a paste, kinda like the base for squirrel cookies, and see if they'll eat that.
    At this age being uninterested in block is not extremely concerning. What block are you feeding? How often and how much formula are they eating? So glad they like the GMF. Are you planning on getting Fox Valley 20/50 and moving them to that diet?
    redwuff
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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy in New York View Post
    Please make sure that your calcium tablets have no vitamin D, ok?
    They don't have vit d, the ones I got were the only ones that didn't have it.

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    Nancy in New York (09-11-2019)

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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Quote Originally Posted by redwuff View Post
    At this age being uninterested in block is not extremely concerning. What block are you feeding? How often and how much formula are they eating? So glad they like the GMF. Are you planning on getting Fox Valley 20/50 and moving them to that diet?
    Harlan teklad 2018 blocks. Though I have a few Henry's blocks left in my freezer, so might give them a couple of those to try. I got the Henry's blocks for last falls babies, I wasn't sure if they would be freezer burnt?

    They are getting up to 9 ml every four hours during the day, I don't get up to feed them in the night anymore. 9 ml is 7% of their body weight at this time.

    I already have Fox valley 20/50. They hate it. Won't eat it unless it's mixed 50/50 or less with something else. Today they responded really well to GMF/fv mixture. They ate with a gusto they haven't had previously. More like normal hoggy baby squirrels than the picky lil things they've been.

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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    I'm feeling much more positive with where's they're at. I had to take a step back and evaluate them medically without letting my emotions get in the way. I've been a vet tech for over ten years, but was feeling like a new, lost pet parent. Once I thought about it from that perspective I could treat the first things first, address hydration, get them eating something and once they're stable start dealing with the calcium issue. I can do this, I was letting my fears and doubts run the show which wasn't helping anything. Thanks for your help everyone!

    Though I do have other questions, that I'm not sure about. Especially concerning Ash, the one with broken bones. What are his prospects for being releasable?? I guess I'll have to wait and see how he heals and if it restricts his movements. But should I be doing something different to try to prepare him for possibly being non releasable? I spend quite a bit of time with him, more than I normally would, but I've never planned on not releasing any of the squirrels I've raised. I imagine it would be easier to wild up than to tame down?

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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lake Gypsy View Post

    I already have Fox valley 20/50. They hate it. Won't eat it unless it's mixed 50/50 or less with something else. Today they responded really well to GMF/fv mixture. They ate with a gusto they haven't had previously. More like normal hoggy baby squirrels than the picky lil things they've been.
    Nix this...just read your last post. They need formula as long as possible...........

    That sounds great. At least their appetite has picked up. Most likely you can sllooowwllyy transition them to FV 20/50. Drop them back to every five hours 4 times a day, IF their body condition warrants it. They will be more willing to pick up the block. Are you intending to keep or release? If you want them to eat Harlan teklad, I would not start on hhb’s. They tend to like hhb's better. Both blocks are good for them but Harlan teklad needs to be 70% of their diet, hhbs only need two per day to meet nutrional needs.
    redwuff
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    Lake Gypsy (09-11-2019)

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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    I need to feed right now but I am working with a baby with multiple breaks. Let me get back to you.
    redwuff
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    Default Re: Help with esbilac affected babies please!

    Quote Originally Posted by redwuff View Post
    Nix this...just read your last post. They need formula as long as possible...........

    That sounds great. At least their appetite has picked up. Most likely you can sllooowwllyy transition them to FV 20/50. Drop them back to every five hours 4 times a day, IF their body condition warrants it. They will be more willing to pick up the block. Are you intending to keep or release? If you want them to eat Harlan teklad, I would not start on hhb’s. They tend to like hhb's better. Both blocks are good for them but Harlan teklad needs to be 70% of their diet, hhbs only need two per day to meet nutrional needs.

    I keep them eating formula as long as they'll take it anyway. All the way into the release cage if they'll still drink it because I've always been terrified of mbd. Then when they won't drink it I sprinkle it on their fresh foods. My plan (don't tell them!) Is to add more FV by the ml into their formula mix.

    Ya, that's why they haven't gotten the hhb. I would prefer they eat the Harlan teklad. Though if Ash isn't releasable, maybe it would be easier to get him to eat two tasty blocks vs a bunch of not so tasty blocks.

    As far as keeping him, I don't want to, unless I have to. Not because I don't love him, but because I think he should be outside being a squirrel. This is the first squirrel I've had that may be NR. I really hope he heals well and can go back to the trees, but until that can be determined is there any particular bonding or extra handling I should be doing with him? Should he be with his litter mates or by himself?

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