Hi Forum: today my Trooper (7.5 years old Eastern Gray male) went to see his vet and we did an ultrasound of his lower abdomen to check for kidneys and/or bladder stones. He came out clear of that and we now are puzzled as to the reason of his odd behavior at home.
Let me explain, this vet trip was triggered when I noticed for the past 2 to 3 months now, a seizure-like behavior that he does, whereby he would be normally playing with a stuffed toy or moving from point A to point B or eating or grooming himself, just about any situation a normal healthy squee would be into; when all of the sudden, without any external stimulation (like a loud noise, dog bark, squirrel squawking, light flash, etc.) he grunts, turns quickly around and bites the base of his tail, then after a few seconds, moves to biting his right or left thigh and ending by biting his right or left upper paw.
After about 10 to 15 seconds of this violent and vigorous attack to himself, he stops instantly without any other left over symptom, than a dazed, drugged-like stance for a few seconds, as if when squirrels fall from a high place and remain "stunned" for a while before they react to life again.
We have checked at the vet his anal glands, wax plug glands, MBD, urine, bladder and kidney stones, had a complete radiograph, head radiograph to check his teeth, checked his nutrition, etc. The vet is puzzled and the only thing she ventured to say is that he might probably be suffering of what is known in dogs as "Fly-Snapping" (also called fly-biting) which is one of many compulsive behaviors that dogs commonly display, like tail chasing, spinning, pacing, toy fixation, shadow or light chasing, repeated licking, chewing or scratching, flank sucking, excessive water drinking and nonstop barking. Some dogs display compulsive behaviors over and over to the point where the behaviors interfere with their normal lives.
Compulsive canine behaviors include any repetitive actions that dogs perform unprompted without specific triggers.
What Causes Fly-Snapping Syndrome?
In dogs Fly-Snapping Syndrome can be an obsessive-compulsive behavior problem, the result of genetics or caused by an array of issues that range from eye problems to a form of epilepsy. The fact is, veterinary neurologists and other experts do not all agree on the cause(s), so the syndrome is generally labeled as an idiopathic disorder, which means the cause is unknown. The thought that fly-snapping is a kind of complex partial seizure is a theory that is gaining traction, but the evidence has not been substantiated.
So my question to the forum is: has any of you who has or had served as surrogate parents, best friends or mates for life to these lovable creatures, ever experienced what my Trooper is going through? Oh and BTW, he is a happy fella, who gets plenty of love and 3 to 5 hours of personalized attention daily, so sadness syndrome or depression has been ruled out.
Since the wisdom of the many is the richness of the few, I was hoping someone on the TSB has heard or seen this before and might shed some light into it.
Thanks,
Trooper's dad
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________ " When you save someone's life, you're responsible for theirs for the rest of yours" - Confucius
Trooper's Troop: Plain, Rufina, Scratchy, Runty, Blackie, Beanie, Biff, PreetyBoy, Limpy, Jaws, Scarface, Badtail and Housemama
Trooper's Story at: http://www.mixbook.com/photo-books/interests/trooper-friends-9554554?vk=759PD8gn7A
I have not experienced anything like that personally. I have heard of folks that have used CBD oil successfully to control OCD behavior in their squees.
I hope someone with experience in using CBD oil will chime in.
Consider having your vet check his spine for any evidence of degenerative disc disease; it is possible he is having sensations due to a progressively destabilizing disc in the arch of his back. it is a long shot, yet in older squirrels should be checked for.
In rats the occurrence of OCD has been well documented, and the use of CBD has been shown to ameliorate the incidence of self chewing.
There is a thread on the board on this same issue. As for a source, make sure to get one that is organic.
Another source, Magnesium, is a key anti-convulsive, anti-seizure mineral.
1/2 scoop supplemental target; divide dose adding to AM & PM meals daily.
Bringing up the ratio of the whole diet to a closer one that has been found to support bone, heart, kidney, bladder and neuro health of (2.5 :1) to (3:3 :1) may help to reduce 'neuro' agitation in rodents.
The easier way to do this is to begin by adding (1/4 Scoop) daily, splitting the amount equally between the AM & PM meals. Then after four days and no loose stool, increase the total amount by half again, that is 1/8 scoop, and again divide the total dose between the AM and PM meals. If then in four days no loose stool is present, increase the total amount to 1/2 scoop daily, again dividing the total daily dose between the AM & PM meals.
Since any increase in magnesium can initially result in the loosening of stool; it is important to give enough time for the body to adjust to the increase. If then having reached the target of 1/2 scoop daily given with the meal in a split dose of 1/8 Tsp. per meal, the stool is still a bit loose after 4 days, then reduce the amount by 1/64 Tsp. removing this amount from the half scoop. If the stool begins to firm then leave the dose at this measure, if not then reduce it instead by 1/32 Tsp. measure.
All those that care for older squirrels should familiarize themselves with this issue; likely you are aware of it, yet this article is the most thorough one I have ever found to date.
What Are The Signs I Will See When My Pet Rat Has Kidney Disease ?
With time, your rat’s activity level will decrease and other disturbances will begin. When kidneys can no longer keep blood phosphorus levels in control, a condition called secondary hyperparathyroidism develops.
Those rats can show rear leg weakness, soft bones, diarrhea, and eventually seizures.
Though the description doesn't fit in all regards, it is possible that what is seen is evidence of this issue developing.
Diggie's friend; thank you for your reply and that of others as well. Much appreciated. Interesting note about magnesium and CBD oil. We discussed with the vet about some sort of tranquilizing medication, be it drugs or herbal and she explained that we could try some, but would not answer exactly what his behavior is triggered by.
The spine malformation is one that caught my eye, since a few months ago, he had an incident where I accidentally and lightly stepped on his tail (as he was trying to decimate my shoes, which apparently are his mortal enemy). So maybe I caused him some tail/spine damage that is now showing up as this seizure-like behavior. I can say categorically that he did not display this seizures before the tail step incident, so it all kind of makes sense if that is what causing it.
Using CBD would have a narcotic effect on him, I presume and I am not sure if that would be the smartest thing to do, as he gets these fits in any location, even he has had them while hanging from a cat tree pole and went into his chewing routine on his back quarters while he was hanging from one hind leg/paw only. It was heart wrenching to see that and I fear he might fall to a hard surface and do more damage.
The link on the rats renal failure, seems to mention seizures but his urine pH, SG and protein has been normal. I check urinalisys 11 parameters every time he leaves a pool of urine on a clean surface (about once a day to once every two days). I can produce a histogram of his urinalisys since August 2012 if needed to see if there is any trends.
I guess starting on magnesium would be the most innocuous approach and see what happens for a while. Then maybe get a radiograph of his back quarters. Oh I wish we had mobile MRI service for veterinary use here on the west coast like there is in Florida!
Thanks,
Trooper's dad
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________ " When you save someone's life, you're responsible for theirs for the rest of yours" - Confucius
Trooper's Troop: Plain, Rufina, Scratchy, Runty, Blackie, Beanie, Biff, PreetyBoy, Limpy, Jaws, Scarface, Badtail and Housemama
Trooper's Story at: http://www.mixbook.com/photo-books/interests/trooper-friends-9554554?vk=759PD8gn7A
No, and I would re-think the CBD oil. It has no "narcotizing effect." Cannabidiol is not the "fun" part of marijuana. That is THC. I think that likely CBD is the reason it has been used by people for so many years for medicinal reasons - the fact that they got high too was just a nice side effect! Now we have the ability to isolate and reduce and strengthen these things, and separate out one from the other.
You really should do some noodling around the internet on a "CBD and seizure disorder" search. There are parents all over the country who are pulling up roots to move to legal states because their kids are having uncontrollable seizures controlled with the stuff. They are not at all narcotized. I am no expert - Diggie probably is - but in a situation like this I would use it in a New York minute, given what I have read and even seen on TV.
The attached study file sadly was one of the cruel ones; it found CBD reduced pain in rats.
Has your male squirrel been neuter? If not the following info wouldn't then apply to your squirrel based upon that issue.
In a study in adult male rats showed that males altered before having passed sexual maturity didn't reach full bone density, as it takes months with the male hormone at full level to support this milestone. Neutering prior to months after reaching sexual maturity the rats were found to be susceptible to developing MBD.
Our girl developed degenerative disc disease from being spayed at 7 years, which caused her back legs to spasm. She never bit them though to my knowledge. Her vet prescribed Methocarbamol (muscle relaxer)for the spasms, and Metacam for pain. I switched to a homeopathic Arnica, montana for pain after the spasms lessened; the vet told me it wouldn't cause any drug interaction. It worked pretty well at taking down the inflammation. I still gave the Metacam at times the spasms increased, but tried to limit its long-term use of this drug otherwise.
Hi Diggie's friend; thanks again on the additional info. Trooper is an intact male. No neutering, although sometimes I wonder if it would have calmed him down a bit, he is full of energy and hates, I mean hates my feet. You should see how my ankle-high boots look like which I wear around him. Like a #3 mesh sieve!
I am not afraid nor against CBD. I need to read more on the therapeutic effect, which if it is like a narcotic effect (not that CBD is narcotic, just its effect, in other words masking the real problem), then we will never know for sure what causes his attacks.
I need to clarify that his attacks are not like an epileptic attack, whereby the victim is unconscious or unaware of what is going on (catatonic). He is fully aware and responsive to stimuli from me or the environment and he can stop and continue the attack if I interrupt him. This is one item I failed to include in my original post and one that my vet found perplexing.
Trooper's dad
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________ " When you save someone's life, you're responsible for theirs for the rest of yours" - Confucius
Trooper's Troop: Plain, Rufina, Scratchy, Runty, Blackie, Beanie, Biff, PreetyBoy, Limpy, Jaws, Scarface, Badtail and Housemama
Trooper's Story at: http://www.mixbook.com/photo-books/interests/trooper-friends-9554554?vk=759PD8gn7A
Diggie probably is - but in a situation like this I would use it in a New York minute, given what I have read and even seen on TV.
I only tried an organic spray source from Westlake CA. company , but it gave me headaches so I didn't continue to use it for sciatic pain. I have not tried the oil, but I was handed two samples of it at a local horseshow from "Green Gorilla". They shared their aime was to provide a pure organic source of CBD oil to support both horses and riders with neurological pain issues. I guess one day I will try it if my husband hasn't used it up first.
Take a moment to check out the source Muggsy'sgm uses, that she has had good success with at inhibiting the tail chewing her Muggsy was doing.
A note on the use of Magnesium Glycinate on my thread on CBD and OCD; I recommended this form on the basis of its merits for health, yet since have learned that this has a horrible taste when added in powder form to yogurt, which caused the squirrel given it to reject this food when it was included, but not when Magnesium citrate was included instead. Magnesium citrate has no taste issues as all; it is the same form I have used for years in my tree squirrel diet, having found no evidence of CaOx crystals in the urine under a 400X microscope examination of a properly prepared fresh sample according to lab standards.
I don't know if the Magnesium Taurate has a taste issue not; I will post on it when I get a new bottle. I took this source myself in capsule form for a number of years, which it didn't cause me any issues save when bowel tolerance was exceeded. A few forms of magnesium aren't good ones to include, yet citrate and taurate forms of magnesium are well absorbed, and then even better in rats than some other forms of magnesium.
What you describe sounds like territorial aggressive dominance, common to allowing a squirrel the run of your home. If this is the case, taking ack the space by removing all nuts and treats and only feeding in one place in a cage.
The second thing is to increase magnesium in the diet through powdered supplementation. Magnesium is the calming mineral that supports relaxation of nerves and muscles.
I recommended years ago to a friend who had the same problem with their squirrel, who was biting their husband and refused being touched by anyone elseSince these specific changes the squirrel mentioned has stopped being aggressive, and has even accepted touch from other family members, like it isn't the same squirrel. It is far from lethargic though, being very active, playful.
Magnesium citrate is the form used in my diet. Again, Magnesium taurate can also be used, as it is also very absorbent and bioavailable form, which is associated with reductions in seizure activity
Beginning with one quarter of a scoop split AM and PM daily, and increasing the amount in approx. 4 days if the stool is firm by half again, that is one eighth of a scoop. Split the total once again between the AM & PM meals. Last increase is the same amount, done the same way. Be aware that in adding in the last increase that stool may become soft. If it does then wait a few days, and if it doesn't improve or worsen, then reduce the total daily by 1/64 and again wait to see if it stops. If diarrhea occurs reduce the magnesium powder by 1/32 Tsp. Should you have any questions on this you can PM me.
Based upon the information on seizures on the above page I beg to differ with your vet for seizures can begin with not much going on save as what you have described, and then progress to being more severe over time. They also can be promoted by medication as this page also notes.
Personally I sure wouldn't give that med again, other meds often require too much sedation.
From what I have read from Muggy'sgm is that her squirrel has had a good quality of life on CBC.
I haven't really gone through this study attached, very technical, and medicalease; perhaps it may hold some answers for you about CBD.
I've being working on another thread that includes seizure issues; sorry, this comment was meant for another member.
They also can be promoted by medication as this page also notes. Personally I sure wouldn't give that med again, other meds often require too much sedation.
FOCAL SEIZURES/OCD IN MALE SQUIRREL
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