Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    15
    Thanked: 15

    Default Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    I have an adult squirrel who is 8 years old. At this time he has no incisors upper or lower. It is possible they will not grow back.
    At this point he is recovering from an abscess and I have him on a rescue omnivore diet. He just lost his last incisor so after recovery I will want to get him eating on his own.

    I would greatly appreciate suggestions on what foods I can offer him when he recovers that he can manage with just his molars and will provide necessary nutrition.

    Each morning I have shared my oatmeal with him so that is my starting point. A favorite food of his is the cornbread from Boston Market. When he had an upper incisor he managed to eat English Walnuts that were shelled. Possibly he can still crunch them with his molars. Occasionally he has eaten Cheerios. He used to like a peanut butter and cheese cracker but I don't think he can manage it now.

    I have heard of the boo balls but not sure he can manage them with no incisors.

    Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,812
    Thanked: 1762

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    For older squirrels, research in adult rats indicates that older rodents be supported with a higher Ca:P ratio than what juvenile squirrels

    require. A whole diet Ca:P ratio of at least 2.25: 1 up to 3:1 Calcium Phosphorus whole diet ratio.

    To do this, lowering phosphorus and protein in the diet is needful, for as the kidneys age they are less able to handle phosphorus.

    This means lowering the grain portion of the diet, and perhaps raising the calcium by the same.

    Add calcium citrate (Frontier Naturals) 1/32 Tsp. and reduce nuts including seed portion to 1/2 Tsp. chopped daily.

    https://www.amazon.com/Frontier-Calc.../dp/B000UYA1T6

    Also add Magnesium Citrate from: https://www.amazon.com/Frontier-Magn.../dp/B000UYC3MY

    Include (1/4) Tsp. of organic applesauce (naturally sweetened, with no real or artificial sugars added)

    Add this mixture to (1 1/2) Tsp. of organic plain yogurt ("Stonyfield', or "Green Valley") naturally sweetened, with no sugars real or artificial added.

    Include (1/2 Tsp.) of organic fruit (Berry or tree fruit choice) daily; alternate feeding different organic fruit from tree and berries sources daily.

    For staples include organic baked Acorn and Butternut squash, 1 1/2 Tsp. daily.

    Blanched (baby) (immature) lettuce leaves (but no Romaine or Iceberg lettuces).

    Other options (also fed blanched) include (immature) organic: Chicory (endive) leaves, arugula leaves, radicchio leaves,

    escarole, Watercess, Garden Cress leaves, Mizuna. Blanching (1 1/2 min.) for immature leaves above.

    (5 up to 10 min.) for immature organic leaves of Bok Choy, Kale, Napa cabbage, Asian cabbages:

    and (10 up to 20 min.) for the mature organic leaves of these same sources noted here above, and also for the denser

    leafy greens, including headed cabbages, mustard greens.

    Be sure not to over-cook these sources to where they become 'green glop', as then they lose their nutrient value.

  3. Serious fuzzy thank you's to Diggie's Friend from:

    stuffs2936 (12-01-2018)

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,812
    Thanked: 1762

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    To determine the measure for the diet for magnesium, begin by adding 1/64 Tsp. to the AM yogurt portion. In a few days add an additional measure of the same amount but place Into the yogurt portion in the PM meal. Continue to increase the magnesium in this way till bowel tolerance is reached (when the stool just begins to loosen) then reduce the amount by 1/32 Tsp.

    Be sure to divide each of the totals for the Calcium citrate, and the Magnesium citrate between the AM and PM meals daily.

    No more cornbread, feed a rodent block diet, HHB block diet for adults is a good choice, this can be ground and added to yogurt mixture.

    Also consider including Organic Chia Oil (high in Omega 3 fatty acid (1/32 Tsp.)

    https://www.amazon.com/Foods-Alive-A...007788AZA?th=1,

    and Organic Pumpkin seed oil (high in Omega 6 fatty acid) (1/64 Tsp.) (especially needful for older male squirrels)

    https://www.amazon.com/Pumpkin-Seed-...X2CEX87R19RWNM

    to the meals daily, splitting each of these amounts between the AM and PM feedings.

    These oils can make greens more appealing to a squirrel; also good on squash, and added to the yogurt.

  5. Serious fuzzy thank you's to Diggie's Friend from:

    stuffs2936 (12-01-2018)

  6. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,812
    Thanked: 1762

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    A small amount of plain no sugars added organic old fashioned quick, (not instant) oat meal of 1/2 Tsp. cooked measure can be included in the diet, as it helps with the bowels when reducing other grain sources as needed.


    No cornbread, or wheat with oats, as these sources are very high in phosphorus.

    I have a concern about the incisor loss; was it related to an accident, or did they just go missing one day?

    I ask for reason that this condition can be related directly to Metabolic Bone disease where the ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus is lower than (1.2:1), or inverted with more phosphorus than calcium in the total diet. Making the changes I have described will help to support a positive healthy ratio for your adult squirrel.

    Do you have a way to take a weight for your squirrel? If so it is a good idea to do so as a baseline. Often in diets too high in phosphorus there will be also obesity.

    In addition, I recommending getting some urine pH testing strips. Mission carries one that does more than just urine pH and so may be a better choice to check on other possible issues of health.

    To take mean urine pH, you take three readings at least an hour after a meal each, and then one the next day before the first meal of the day. Then add up the values, and divide by four (the number of values) to determine the mean urine pH.

    Placing some wax paper in the bottom of his cage in a corner perhaps he is used to going, may be one way to get a good sample. Do not take a reading of any sample that has cooled, for then bacteria growth increases and causes the urine pH to rise as a result. Seeing him go and then taking a sample is ideal, save for when you leave the room and come back in a minute to find a new puddle he has left.

  7. Serious fuzzy thank you's to Diggie's Friend from:

    stuffs2936 (12-01-2018)

  8. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    15
    Thanked: 15

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    Thank you for reply.

    His lower incisors have been gone for awhile. The top more recently. With the last one just going. It was a break as shown on x-ray above the gum line and just came out in the doctor's hands.

    He is fighting an abscess now in the lower jaw. X-rays show odontoma's on all incisors. The top has not advanced to the point of breathing issues. I am consulting with an expert in the field to determine timing on removing the top odontoma's. It is a complicated and expensive procedure. I am not sure at what rate they are growing.

  9. Serious fuzzy thank you's to stuffs2936 from:

    Diggie's Friend (12-01-2018)

  10. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,444
    Thanked: 7368

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    Quote Originally Posted by stuffs2936 View Post
    Thank you for reply.

    His lower incisors have been gone for awhile. The top more recently. With the last one just going. It was a break as shown on x-ray above the gum line and just came out in the doctor's hands.

    He is fighting an abscess now in the lower jaw. X-rays show odontoma's on all incisors. The top has not advanced to the point of breathing issues. I am consulting with an expert in the field to determine timing on removing the top odontoma's. It is a complicated and expensive procedure. I am not sure at what rate they are growing.
    I was aftraid of that. I think you should read PennyCash's thread about Resilie. It is probably the MOST documented case of odontoma on this board. It pretty much contains her entire medical history. https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...t-again/page67

    It is a long thread. Around page 50 starts her journey with odontoma. She has had 2 successfully removed. Resilie is like a rock star around here. There is NOTHING that Penny won't do or hasn't done for Resilie. She drove to FL twice for odontoma surgery (from Texas).
    Resilie doesn't fit the profile for classic odontoma because we usually think of older squirrels having this issue. Resilie was only 3.
    If I remember correctly, on the thread there might be the diet that Resilie eats after removal of the odontoma. If not, Penny would be happy to share. Resilie has an extensive medical record that Penny has complied since she was very young.

    Some odontoma grow very slowly. Others can grow very fast so it's hard to predict.

  11. 5 TSBers pass along the fuzzy thanks to HRT4SQRLS:

    Diggie's Friend (12-01-2018), Grinderhead (12-01-2018), Nancy in New York (12-01-2018), stepnstone (12-01-2018), stuffs2936 (12-01-2018)

  12. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    15
    Thanked: 15

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    Quote Originally Posted by HRT4SQRLS View Post
    I was aftraid of that. I think you should read PennyCash's thread about Resilie. It is probably the MOST documented case of odontoma on this board. It pretty much contains her entire medical history. https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...t-again/page67

    It is a long thread. Around page 50 starts her journey with odontoma. She has had 2 successfully removed. Resilie is like a rock star around here. There is NOTHING that Penny won't do or hasn't done for Resilie. She drove to FL twice for odontoma surgery (from Texas).
    Resilie doesn't fit the profile for classic odontoma because we usually think of older squirrels having this issue. Resilie was only 3.
    If I remember correctly, on the thread there might be the diet that Resilie eats after removal of the odontoma. If not, Penny would be happy to share. Resilie has an extensive medical record that Penny has complied since she was very young.

    Some odontoma grow very slowly. Others can grow very fast so it's hard to predict.
    Thank you and to all contributing individuals.
    Without the abscess and subsequent x-rays as well as the astute comment given by yourself calling my attention to odontoma, i would have probably missed considering Odontoma as many vets are not familar with this.

    I try to balance everything I do with considering all options and most importantly what is best for my squirrel's well being. The surgery for Odontoma appears to be significantly risky and expensive. To clarify, parting with the money to help my little guy is a no brainer. Finding the money to part with might be.
    Leaving the financial aspect out of this totally for the moment, I am very pleased to know there is at least the possibility this is a slow growing odontoma. My gut is telling me, get beyond the abscess and get him completely stabilized and strong pending no issues such as breathing in the meantime. The x-rays would indicate this is relatively small at this time and logic is telling me to consider rechecking with an x-ray to possibly determine growth rate. Of course it can't be advisable to x-ray him constantly but possibly some reasonable way to assess the growth rate can be established. I am curious if there is any type of scope that could go up the nose and see if the passageway is narrowing? His incisors do not seem to be growing so possibly neither will the odontoma. As I understand the lower odontoma's are very risky to remove. The upper one's primarily cause a breathing concern if they grow to a larger size. So I am wrestling with the concept of rushing into surgery just because of the discovery of the odontoma.

    I am very thankful to all that have helped me understanding this situation as each situation offers education and information for others that may find themselves with this condition.

  13. 2 TSBers pass along the fuzzy thanks to stuffs2936:

    HRT4SQRLS (12-01-2018), stepnstone (12-01-2018)

  14. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,444
    Thanked: 7368

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    Your observations are 100% on target. Just because odontoma are seen on the X-ray does not unequivocally mean that they should be removed at that time. The vet in FL that probably does more odontoma surgery than any other vet has a statement that she repeats over and over. "I don't treat X-rays. I treat the patient." She will only remove odontoma when they are causing problems such as breathing problems. I attended a conference that she gave and she said she will not remove small odontoma that are not causing issues. She said if they are removed too soon they can and will grow back. She said that every cell of germinal tissue has to be removed or it will grow back. Typically it's the top odontoma that cause problems. That's why I always suspect odontoma when older squirrels have vague respiratory issues. I don't know that many that have had the bottoms removed.

    Rodents teeth always grow. If the incisors appear to stop growing it's because they are growing backwards and forming the large bony mass at the tooth base a.k.a. odontoma.

    I want to be honest with you. The surgery is brutal and I'm being 100% serious. Most survive the surgery but some don't survive the recovery period. About a month ago I became discouraged by this surgery. A person showed up on TSB just like yourself. Her squirrel clearly had the symptoms of advanced odontoma. She got X-rays from her local vet which confirmed the diagnosis. I need to confirm but I believe her squirrel is 7 yo. I shared with her the options regarding surgery privately. I also mentioned that without surgery there is no cure other than treating symptoms with antibiotics, anti-inflammatories and pain meds. The next message I received from her was that she had an appointment in FL and would be traveling in a matter of days. The surgery was done and squirrel had an extremely difficult night. She said she held her for 14 hrs. She wouldn't eat. Apparently that first week was a nightmare and keep in mind that she had returned home and was a 1000 miles away from the vet that performed the surgery. She said her squirrel was afraid of her now as she shoved meds in her face. I felt terrible. I started questioning whether this surgery was 'worth it'. Put them through THIS or love them to the end and allow them to pass peacefully in a controlled setting. I agonized over it. A few days ago, I received another email from this person. After a week of not eating, she turned the corner and started recuperating. Her mom is ecstatic that she is now eating enthusiastically and beginning to act normal. I asked her if in light of all the major issues... 'WAS IT WORTH IT?' She assured me that it was. I needed to hear that as I was beginning to think that maybe it shouldn't be done.

    It is a decision that only you can make. The surgery can be either a curse or a blessing. A double edged sword so to speak. Successful surgery can buy many more years with your friend OR a bad outcome can, well ....
    It is a tough decision. I personally haven't faced it so I can only share others experience.

    Definitely treat the infection first and go from there.
    There are no scopes that will give helpful information as far as size. It's all about the symptoms. If they are having respiratory issues it's time to start thinking about surgery if you are considering it. If I was going to have surgery done I would have it done before the symptoms are extreme. The odontoma can block the sinuses. Squirrels are not effective mouth breathers so 'other' humane options would need to be considered if surgery isn't an option.

  15. 5 TSBers pass along the fuzzy thanks to HRT4SQRLS:

    cava (12-02-2018), Diggie's Friend (12-06-2018), Nancy in New York (12-02-2018), stepnstone (12-01-2018), stuffs2936 (12-01-2018)

  16. #9
    SammysMom's Avatar
    SammysMom is offline Administrator, Conn. Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    30,713
    Thanked: 11053

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    If you share your xrays, dr. Emerson in port orange Florida might take a look at them. She is as extraordinary vet who is the best when it comes to teeth.
    If you email the xrays to me at savesquirrels@sbcglobal.net I will get them to her.
    Squirrels, squirrels and more squirrels....
    Prayers for the people who make this a better world...
    savesquirrels@sbcglobal.net



  17. 3 TSBers pass along the fuzzy thanks to SammysMom:

    Grinderhead (12-01-2018), lukaslolamaus (12-01-2018), stepnstone (12-01-2018)

  18. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    15
    Thanked: 15

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    Quote Originally Posted by HRT4SQRLS View Post
    Your observations are 100% on target. Just because odontoma are seen on the X-ray does not unequivocally mean that they should be removed at that time. The vet in FL that probably does more odontoma surgery than any other vet has a statement that she repeats over and over. "I don't treat X-rays. I treat the patient." She will only remove odontoma when they are causing problems such as breathing problems. I attended a conference that she gave and she said she will not remove small odontoma that are not causing issues. She said if they are removed too soon they can and will grow back. She said that every cell of germinal tissue has to be removed or it will grow back. Typically it's the top odontoma that cause problems. That's why I always suspect odontoma when older squirrels have vague respiratory issues. I don't know that many that have had the bottoms removed.

    Rodents teeth always grow. If the incisors appear to stop growing it's because they are growing backwards and forming the large bony mass at the tooth base a.k.a. odontoma.

    I want to be honest with you. The surgery is brutal and I'm being 100% serious. Most survive the surgery but some don't survive the recovery period. About a month ago I became discouraged by this surgery. A person showed up on TSB just like yourself. Her squirrel clearly had the symptoms of advanced odontoma. She got X-rays from her local vet which confirmed the diagnosis. I need to confirm but I believe her squirrel is 7 yo. I shared with her the options regarding surgery privately. I also mentioned that without surgery there is no cure other than treating symptoms with antibiotics, anti-inflammatories and pain meds. The next message I received from her was that she had an appointment in FL and would be traveling in a matter of days. The surgery was done and squirrel had an extremely difficult night. She said she held her for 14 hrs. She wouldn't eat. Apparently that first week was a nightmare and keep in mind that she had returned home and was a 1000 miles away from the vet that performed the surgery. She said her squirrel was afraid of her now as she shoved meds in her face. I felt terrible. I started questioning whether this surgery was 'worth it'. Put them through THIS or love them to the end and allow them to pass peacefully in a controlled setting. I agonized over it. A few days ago, I received another email from this person. After a week of not eating, she turned the corner and started recuperating. Her mom is ecstatic that she is now eating enthusiastically and beginning to act normal. I asked her if in light of all the major issues... 'WAS IT WORTH IT?' She assured me that it was. I needed to hear that as I was beginning to think that maybe it shouldn't be done.

    It is a decision that only you can make. The surgery can be either a curse or a blessing. A double edged sword so to speak. Successful surgery can buy many more years with your friend OR a bad outcome can, well ....
    It is a tough decision. I personally haven't faced it so I can only share others experience.

    Definitely treat the infection first and go from there.
    There are no scopes that will give helpful information as far as size. It's all about the symptoms. If they are having respiratory issues it's time to start thinking about surgery if you are considering it. If I was going to have surgery done I would have it done before the symptoms are extreme. The odontoma can block the sinuses. Squirrels are not effective mouth breathers so 'other' humane options would need to be considered if surgery isn't an option.
    Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. Indeed, there are many considerations and though emotionally painful to us as caregivers, the animal's well being and interest should be first and foremost. Sometimes the treasured memory of a special love is a wiser choice than placing an animal through a torturous ordeal to selfishly buy a little more time with them. Facing these situations is never easy. I often think of special cat (always seems to happen to the favorite ones) who was attacked by a wild Raccoon. He lost a rear leg, tail, and skull was actually deformed. Three months and five surgeries later at a very generous and caring vet (total bill $300) Kitty made an excellent recovery and was actually a very happy cat. He lived seventeen years beyond that horrible day and was the most loving and adorable cat I have ever known. I had actually let the vet guide me on that one, I did not demand or insist he be saved but the vet simply said let's take it day by day. He became known as the "miracle" cat. Later, I fought an intense three month battle to save an African Grey from the insidious viral disease of Proventricular Dilatation Disease. I lost the battle as most do that encounter PDD. Around the clock gavage feeding and care became so intense for those three months that I realized my entire world had been reshaped to fight for her, she was the center of my universe. When I lost her the vacuum caused my entire universe to cave in and I consequently ended up with PTSD and severe anxiety. It compromised my ability to care for my other pets. When I was fighting there was some glimmer of hope, and for the most part she did not seem to be suffering, but looking back it might not have been the best choice.

    So, I would not want to judge anyone on their decisions, though I might suggest they take some time to reflect on all options of their situation. I just hope I can make the best one for my little guy.

    Thank you again

  19. 2 TSBers pass along the fuzzy thanks to stuffs2936:

    HRT4SQRLS (12-02-2018), stepnstone (12-01-2018)

  20. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,444
    Thanked: 7368

    Default Re: Nutritional Balanced Diet when all incisors are gone

    Based on your articulate post and your past experiences, I have no doubt that your decisions will be based on compassion and reason.
    To balance out my previous post, when done by a vet experienced in the procedure, the outcome is usually positive but no doubt the recovery is difficult.

    I am extremely hopeful that draining the abscess will solve the current issues and that the finding of odontoma is an incidental finding and not in any way related to the current problem. After the course of antibiotics is complete you might be able to put this behind you but even so, it's good to know that this 'other' issue is there so that you can monitor him for progression. We hope that never happens.

  21. 2 TSBers pass along the fuzzy thanks to HRT4SQRLS:

    stepnstone (12-02-2018), stuffs2936 (12-02-2018)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •