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Thread: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

  1. #161
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    I'll let HRT fill you in on what would be best. But this is an organism that can make people sick so wash your hands and be careful with handling stuff. I would probably try to keep her away from other critters for now, at least until she is on some effective treatment.


    Quote Originally Posted by RamaMama View Post
    Luna's LAB Resutls

    Klebsiella ornithinolytica


    I am confused. How did it change from one thing to another so fast ?
    This is bad, isn't it.
    Dude had this.

    Which AB is best IF I have or can get ? She was on Cipro for 18 days but went from e coli to Kleb.
    What ? ? ? ?

    Does she need to be kept away from the other squs ? ? ? ? ?


    ANALISIS - Positive

    Klebsiella ornithinolytica


    Amikacina -S
    Ampicilina -R
    Ampicilina/sulbactam -S
    Aztreonam -S
    Cefepime -S
    Cefotaxime -S
    CefotetŠn -S
    Ceftazidime -S
    Ceftriaxone -S
    Cefuroxime - Sodio -R
    Ciprofloxacina -R
    Ertapenem -S
    Gentamicina -R
    Imipenem -S
    Levofloxacina -R
    Meropenem -S
    Piperacilina/tazobactam -S
    Tetraciclina -R
    Tigeciclina -S
    Tobramicina -I
    Trimetropim/Sulfa - R
    See my wild squirrel adventures in the thread "Squirtle's yard!":
    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...quirtle-s-Yard!

    See the sisters Pip and Nip!
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    Loving dad to Sir Max, 2017-2018. There is no foot so small that it cannot leave an imprint on this world.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right."
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  2. #162
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    When the DUDE was getting really sick in Dec 2016, I resigned myself to his "fate" and built him a beautiful (final) nest box. Then he fooled us and decided to stick around another 15 months. That was a blessing.....ANYWAY...I have begun cutting wood for LUNA's box....I hope it also results in her being with us for a longer time. Poor Little girl...she has fun afternoons and hard nights. We LOVE her soooooooooooo.

    LUNA TUNA.....aka...TOONEY.
    Name:  luna cage.jpg
Views: 135
Size:  130.7 KBName:  luna toony.jpg
Views: 121
Size:  87.7 KB


    675

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  4. #163
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    This bacterial infection is noted to be found in the roots of the incisors of rats, also in the bladder.

    The following pages note AB for infection from Klebsiella; please review with the rehabbers on the board, as I don't make recommendations for meds,

    just do online searches for references for treatments.

    On Ratguide.com

    http://ratguide.com/health/upper_res...unctivitis.php

    http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/.php

    http://ratguide.master.com/texis/mas...Search%3A&s=SS

    This AB source is noted to use when other ABs haven't worked for severe infections. (see side effects)

    marbofloxacin Useful in: respiratory infections, urinary tract infections, soft tissue infection and soft tissue injury.

    Again, I'm not recommending it, just sharing information on sources that have been used to treat this infection in rats.

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  6. #164
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    Still need someone who can check Luna's LAB RESULTS and dose the best AB from those listed below. Also need to know - with the AB can Tram, Ibuprofen, Decongestant nose drops & Gas x be used at the same time? Or Not.

    Luna Weight - approx 625 grms


    Thanks DF for posting but I am comfortable only with exact info on meds and dosing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamaMama View Post
    Luna's LAB Resutls

    Klebsiella ornithinolytica


    I am confused. How did it change from one thing to another so fast ?
    This is bad, isn't it.
    Dude had this.

    Which AB is best IF I have or can get ? She was on Cipro for 18 days but went from e coli to Kleb.
    What ? ? ? ?

    Does she need to be kept away from the other squs ? ? ? ? ?


    ANALISIS - Positive

    Klebsiella ornithinolytica


    Amikacina -S
    Ampicilina -R
    Ampicilina/sulbactam -S
    Aztreonam -S
    Cefepime -S
    Cefotaxime -S
    CefotetŠn -S
    Ceftazidime -S
    Ceftriaxone -S
    Cefuroxime - Sodio -R
    Ciprofloxacina -R
    Ertapenem -S
    Gentamicina -R
    Imipenem -S
    Levofloxacina -R
    Meropenem -S
    Piperacilina/tazobactam -S
    Tetraciclina -R
    Tigeciclina -S
    Tobramicina -I
    Trimetropim/Sulfa - R

  7. #165
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    Does the R following the medication indicate that the bacteria is resistant to that drug?

  8. #166
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    Yes.

    S - Susceptible ó likely, but not guaranteed to inhibit the pathogenic microbe; may be an appropriate choice for treatment
    I - Intermediate ó may be effective at a higher dosage, or more frequent dosage, or effective only in specific body sites where the antibiotic penetrates to provide adequate concentrations
    R - Resistant ó not effective at inhibiting the growth of the organism in a laboratory test; may not be an appropriate choice for treatment






    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1959 View Post
    Does the R following the medication indicate that the bacteria is resistant to that drug?
    See my wild squirrel adventures in the thread "Squirtle's yard!":
    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...quirtle-s-Yard!

    See the sisters Pip and Nip!
    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...-(Pip-and-Nip)!

    Loving dad to Sir Max, 2017-2018. There is no foot so small that it cannot leave an imprint on this world.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right."
    -Grateful Dead

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  10. #167
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    I do not know a lot about these meds, but I see that the one that Diggies Friendís article said was a good choice is not listed, unless itís in the class of one of these drugs.

    I do know that Dr. Emerson uses Amikacin ALOT with her odontoma patients.

  11. #168
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    Neither do I RM, but that's why I'm posting it to see if there is another source that might help your girl.

    Sadly, just as you noted RM, this is one those strains of bacteria that is resistant to many AB as you noted RM. It is common to the bladder, which makes how she got it into her nose from cleaning herself.

    Here is the link that didn't work before to the info on marbofloxacin, I put it on for I didn't read this one had been tried so far, having no recommendation one way or the other, as I don't do meds.

    Here's the link Mel, for some reason the link didn't work the first time I posted it.

    http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobi...bofloxacin.php

    The study notes klebsiella was found to be most resistant to Rifampicin, then Ampicillin, then Cefalotin, and lowest resistance to Tetracyclin of the AB tested.

    Whether this is used for this particular condition I didn't see noted, only that both of these med have been used in rats, yet with noted side effects.

    Klebsiella and Enterobacter bacteria are phylogenetically
    closely related what can explain the difference
    between biochemical and molecular identification in the
    current study.
    Mel I would recommend clicking on the study and copying it to your files to share with Dr. E.

    as there's allot of technical data on B1 noted for Klebsiella ssp.

  12. #169
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    Default LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    Thanks for any help. Please PM - box is open.

    Need someone who can check Luna's LAB RESULTS and dose the best AB from those listed below. Also need to know - with the AB can Tram, Ibuprofen, Decongestant nose drops & Gas x be used at the same time? Which Can. Which can't.

    Luna Weight - approx 625 grms

    Luna's LAB Results from Saturday - 4 / 27.



    Which AB is best IF I have or can get ? She was on Cipro for 18 days {3 /30 - 4 / 18 } but went from e coli to Kleb.

    ANALISIS - Positive

    Klebsiella ornithinolytica


    Amikacina -S
    Ampicilina -R
    Ampicilina/sulbactam -S
    Aztreonam -S
    Cefepime -S
    Cefotaxime -S
    CefotetŠn -S
    Ceftazidime -S
    Ceftriaxone -S
    Cefuroxime - Sodio -R
    Ciprofloxacina -R
    Ertapenem -S
    Gentamicina -R
    Imipenem -S
    Levofloxacina -R
    Meropenem -S
    Piperacilina/tazobactam -S
    Tetraciclina -R
    Tigeciclina -S
    Tobramicina -I
    Trimetropim/Sulfa - R
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...ght=luna+needs

    This is a link to Luna's previous Medical Thread.... if needed for Reference or noting previous comments.

  13. #170
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    On Marbofloxacin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/


    Study of effects of probiotic Lactobacillus acidophilus on antibiotic Marbofloxacin. http://sjlas.org/index.php/SJLAS/article/view/490

    Conclusion: Lactobacillus acidophilus reduced. Probiotics reduce potency of ABs

    Application: The dosage of this med should be considered based upon this probiotic lowering its potency.

    If there is no probiotic given then the gut flora can be devastated, which in turn reduces the uptake of nutrients into the bloodstream.

    Do not give the probiotic at the same time as the AB.

    Give probiotic with food at least 4 hours apart from (prior or following) the AB.

  14. #171
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    Marbofloxacin is not on the list of drugs being Sensitive to the infection Luna has, Unless it is under a
    different name here. If it is not on the list my thinking is that it is not offered here in CR>

    AND - I need some one who knows the medications and can give proper dosing.
    Thanks for caring DF.

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  16. #172
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    Default Re: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    Rosie, I've hesitated to post because I'm really at a loss.

    First, the reason the culture has changed from E.coli to Klebsiella is because the prior antibiotic (Cipro) is selecting out the resistant organisms. The Sensitive E.coli was killed off by the Cipro and a resistant organism (Klebsiella) has taken its place. Klebsiella again is not a dreaded 'monster' organism. It too, is an enteric Gram Negative Rod. In other words, it is part of the usual GI flora. My guess would be that all your squirrels share the some microbiota of the GI tract. With this in mind, she would not be contagious to the others in the way you think. Personally, I would not isolate her but I will leave that up to you.

    Here is the problem with the culture. Every single antibiotic that is an oral antibiotic is RESISTANT! The Sensitive antibiotics are either intramuscular (IM) or intravenous (IV). A lot of them are antibiotics of last resort and would be impossible to get and/or extremely expensive. I have an idea if you really want to treat her. You will notice that all the cephalosporin antibiotics are Sensitive. These are second and third generation cephalosporins and are IV or IM. It is quite possible that the first generation cephalosporin Cephalexin (Keflex) would also be Sensitive. (In the USA the doc would call the lab and ask for the organism to be tested against Cephalexin. I don't know if it would be done in CR.) Cephalexin is an oral antibiotic. If you can get Cephalexin, we could try that. There is a good possibility that it would be effective against the KLebsiella. The problem is that the infection is not the primary problem. The primary problem IMO is odontoma. The Klebsiella might just represent a colonizer and not be a pathogen at all in this case. We just don't know the answer to that. Again, we might kill the Klebsiella and select out for an even more resistant organism. It's a vicious cycle.

    The Klebsiella is a capsule producer. In other words it produces a slime layer. This might be why Luna has so much mucous. If that's the case, eliminating the Klebsiella might make her more comfortable, so I guess it's worth a try.

    See if you can get Cephalexin (Keflex) and I will dose it for you. The likelihood of getting the other Sensitive antibiotics is slim. I personally am not comfortable dosing IV/IM antibiotics orally.

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  18. #173
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    Default Re: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    Thank you for explaining thoroughly, it means a lot and helps with decisions... I need to ponder a bit.

    Dude had Kleb..... and when we treated it... it moved on into Staph. Not sure if it ties in with what you
    explained....... but,

    We know we are leaning on last ditch efforts with the symptoms of "O", but some times she seems so well and happy.


  19. #174
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    Default Re: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    Rosie, it wonít hurt to try the Cephalexin. You might be able to get that in CR.
    It might help a little with the symptoms.

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  21. #175
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    Default Re: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    Though it may work, I believe the antibiotic you note here is the same one that is listed as one of those resistant shown in the chart in the study, the 2nd lowest resistance (see Doc 1)

    The study found on that particular one with the Klebsiella ssp. that is also noted to be found in the urine, and in the roots of teeth, as in odontomas.

    Are you sure that marbofloxacin won't be a good choice? Just sharing information and data on this source.

    Useful in: respiratory infections, urinary tract infections, soft tissue infection and soft tissue injury.

    Marbofloxacin, a second-generation1 fluoroquinolone, is a broad-spectrum, concentration dependent bactericidal antibiotic with significant post-antibiotic effect (meaning it lends itself to once-daily application of the total daily dose or pulse-dosing regimens where deemed appropriate). While its mechanism of action is not completely understood it is believed to act by inhibiting bacterial DNA-gyrase, preventing DNA supercoiling and synthesis.

    It has activity against some Gram-positive aerobes such as staphylococci, and a wide range of Gram-negative bacilli and cocci, which include klebsiella spp., pasteurella spp., pseudomonas spp., salmonella, and other organisms such as mycoplasma, and chlamydia.

    Because the fluoroquinolones have shown variable activity against most Streptococci, as well as weak activity against many anaerobic bacteria, they are not generally recommended for use in treating these types of infections.

    The MSDS reported by Pfizer, for marbofloxacin, reveals no evidence of carcinogenic or teratogenic effects in rats.

    When taken orally marbofloxacin is both rapidly and well absorbed.





    http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobi...bofloxacin.php

  22. #176
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    Default Re: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    No Diggie Iím not sure that the Marbofloxacin wonít work. There is no way to know for sure without a susceptibility against that organism. I will say this... this is not a typical Klebsiella. It is quite resistant for a Klebsiella. The reason I would not use Marbofloxacin as empiric therapy is because both Ciprofloxacin (2nd generation fluoroquinolone) AND Levofloxacin (3rd generation fluoroquinolone) are resistant. Marbofloxacin is a 3rd generation fluoroquinolone. I would not expect it to be sensitive and would not use it without a susceptibility telling me otherwise. In general, based on the other two antibiotics it doesnít appear that a fluoroquinolone would be a good choice for this organism.

    On the other hand, based on the other cephalosporins which all are susceptible, it seems reasonable to select a cephalosporin for empiric therapy. Empiric therapy is treatment based on an educated guess in the absence of complete information. Doctors treat every day based on educated guesses. We do that on TSB every day.

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    Default Re: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    I get that it's resistant, the study pointed that out, and showed various levels of resistance with the ABs tested.

    This article elaborates on the strains of Klebsiella, including ornithinolytica.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...siella_oxytoca

  25. #178
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    Default Re: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    I saw number of notations that the view in the past was that Klebsiella ornithinolytica and Raoultella Ornithinolytica
    were the same, yet now these are known to be DNA distinct, but similar bacterium.

    Question, does the lab in CR distinguish between these two species, or not?

    There is much noted on treating Raoultella Ornithinolytica.

    This is one of two articles I have found on this issue.

    http://www.authorstream.com/Presenta...native-approa/

    Scroll down to see chart on R and S reactions of various antimicrobials tested in this study.

    Multidrug Resistant of Raoultella Ornithinolytica

  26. #179
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    Default Re: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help

    Easier to read webpage for Study and Table data that link on prior post.

    Table 1: Effect of biofield treatment on Raoultella ornithinolytica to antimicrobial susceptibility

    Scroll down from small view to large view to see Table 1 data chart.

    Resistant / Intermediate / Susceptible

    https://www.academia.edu/15362482/Bi...rnithinolytica

  27. #180
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    Default Re: CR's LUNA TUNA NEEDS HELP

    Could an Admin please move Luna's - Thread: LUNA LAB - Klebsiella ornithinolytica - Need Med Dosing Help > >

    to THIS thread..... only want to be working off of ONE if possible. Thanks !

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