nearly 8 weeks old - diarrhea for three days

[cleolovelee]

I have a male and a female (siblings) who’ve experienced diarrhea for going on three days. I am feeding the correct formula (esbilac, probiotics, etc) and Henry’s Heathy squares. I am careful not to let them over eat. They are not offered any other foods except the formula and squares at this point. Both are bright eyed and alert, and have good appetites. They are housed with a female who is about a week older. She is having no issues whatsoever. Please advise.

[stepnstone]

I have a male and a female (siblings) who’ve experienced diarrhea for going on three days. I am feeding the correct formula (esbilac, probiotics, etc) and Henry’s Heathy squares. I am careful not to let them over eat. They are not offered any other foods except the formula and squares at this point. Both are bright eyed and alert, and have good appetites. They are housed with a female who is about a week older. She is having no issues whatsoever. Please advise.

How much, how often are they being fed, and what are their weights?
What are their ages?

[cleolovelee]

How much, how often are they being fed, and what are their weights?
What are their ages?

male = approx 12-16 cc's formula each feeding; weight 165g; approx 8 weeks
female = approx 6-9 cc's formula each feeding; weight 116g; approx 8 weeks

I use a 3cc syringe with miracle nipple. There have been no issues with possible aspiration as they are both fairly quiet eaters.

They are fed roughly every 4-5 hours.

[stepnstone]

male = approx 12-16 cc's formula each feeding; weight 165g; approx 8 weeks
female = approx 6-9 cc's formula each feeding; weight 116g; approx 8 weeks
I use a 3cc syringe with miracle nipple. There have been no issues with possible aspiration as they are both fairly quiet eaters.
They are fed roughly every 4-5 hours.

165 grams @ 7% = 11.55cc
116 grams @ 7% = 08.12cc
I would suggest dropping back to at least 6% with adding the
partial Brat diet to their formula until their bowels firm back up.

Which Henry's block are you giving, are they eating on them?
Any other foods you been giving them?

Brat diet
3 tablespoons (already) mixed formula 2-1
1/2 tsp baby rice powered cereal
1/2 tsp banana baby food.

[cleolovelee]

165 grams @ 7% = 11.55cc
116 grams @ 7% = 08.12cc
I would suggest dropping back to at least 6% with adding the
partial Brat diet to their formula until their bowels firm back up.

Which Henry's block are you giving, are they eating on them?
Any other foods you been giving them?

Brat diet
3 tablespoons (already) mixed formula 2-1
1/2 tsp baby rice powered cereal
1/2 tsp banana baby food.

I am feeding the Healthy Blocks - Original Adult Formula. I have seen both of them chewing on them, but to be honest, I don’t know how much they are eating. I usually cut the blocks up smaller for easier handling. I give one block per squirrel about three times a day (depends if the other blocks are gone or not)

I will try the Brat diet and reducing to 6% and see if that help. Is this Brat diet something I should continue feeding even after they’ve formed back up? Or is it only temporary? I feel like they want to eat more actual food, and I am only not giving them anything else because I was advised not to by other members u til they learn to love the blocks.

[Javarat]

You are way overfeeding them formula.
At 8 weeks they should only be getting formula once per 8 hours (2 to 3 times per day).. NOT every 4 to 5 hours. (4 to 5 hours is the schedule for a 5 week old!)
If you are feeding them 8% twice as often.. that is like they are getting 16% of their body weight as formula.
There is your problem. They are dumping the undigested formula as diarrhea.. which could lead to dehydration.
They should mostly be eating vegetables like arugula, snow peas, and broccoli, and using a water bottle at this point.
Which should have been introduced during the 7th week.
You should only be giving them formula as a calcium supplement.
About half of mine start self-weaning during the 8th week.

[Javarat]

Don't get hung up on 'no other foods until they eat the blocks'.
This is only true for a squirrel that is not going to be released.
Because they have to live mostly on blocks to not get grossly overweight.
If you are releasing this squirrel, it will not matter if they do not like healthy blocks.

To heck with the healthy blocks! They did not eat them.. time to move on!
If anyone gives you a problem with 'only healthy blocks' tell them I said they should try living on just healthy blocks for a few weeks.
Tell me their name and I will send them a bag.

You definitely need to get more solids into them at this point to stop the diarrhea..
Start adding arugula, kale, broccoli, and snap peas (snow peas) today.

[stepnstone]

Javarat you are so way out of line with your jacked up misinformed advice I don't even know where to start,
neither do I desire to waste my time! And yes, by all means send me a bag of block! Henry's already has my info!

cleolovelee, you get to choose the advise you ignore and the advice you adhere to, please choose wisely.

[cleolovelee]

cleolovelee, you get to choose the advise you ignore and the advice you adhere to, please choose wisely.

I am going to go ahead and follow the state-licensed-rehabber’s advice, since i have followed it in the past, and it has helped. So, I have added in the banana baby food and rice cereal to two feedings so far. As of yet, I haven’t seen a change in their diarrhea production except to say that it’s not oozing out as i feed them. So, maybe that’s a sign that they are firming up a bit.

According to the calculations you sent earlier, stepnstone, I am feeding fairly okay as far as quantity. I might need to fine tune it a little bit tho. I don’t want to overfeed them. Currently, I am not feeding at night since I do leave squirrel blocks in their cage at bedtime in case they get hungry before morning.

I haven’t (and usually don’t) offer a water bottle to my releasables. There are no water bottles in nature after all. I do usually provide a bowl of water for them and change it daily since it gets dirty FAST. But, I haven’t introduced water yet since they are definitely not dehydrated and other members have advised to only feed blocks and formula for now. Should I go ahead and offer them water?

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

[stepnstone]

I am going to go ahead and follow the state-licensed-rehabber’s advice, since i have followed it in the past, and it has helped. So, I have added in the banana baby food and rice cereal to two feedings so far. As of yet, I haven’t seen a change in their diarrhea production except to say that it’s not oozing out as i feed them. So, maybe that’s a sign that they are firming up a bit.

According to the calculations you sent earlier, stepnstone, I am feeding fairly okay as far as quantity. I might need to fine tune it a little bit tho. I don’t want to overfeed them. Currently, I am not feeding at night since I do leave squirrel blocks in their cage at bedtime in case they get hungry before morning.

I haven’t (and usually don’t) offer a water bottle to my releasable. There are no water bottles in nature after all. I do usually provide a bowl of water for them and change it daily since it gets dirty FAST. But, I haven’t introduced water yet since they are definitely not dehydrated and other members have advised to only feed blocks and formula for now. Should I go ahead and offer them water?
Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Thank you for your confidence. I'm not the brightest crayon in the box but I do know protocols, the importance and the actual benefits of why they are in place.
That said, please don't discount the knowledge and experience of other qualified TSB member's. One can usually tell which one's they are as they don't speak as if
it's their way or the highway but instead speak in a knowledgeable educated manner without any need to blow smoke up one's !!

Give your babies time to do a turn around, you should see a difference after several feedings if the brat is going to help but it may take a few days to do so.
The diarrhea didn't come on in a day, one can't expect it to turn around in one. It is also important to offer water at least occasionally in between meals even if they
are hydrated, it will aid in digestion and with flushing their systems.

I would definitely put a dish of some type with water in there for them. I (used) to be hard core about dish vs. water bottle too but got seriously tired of cleaning poop
beads out of their water. I now use them on my pre release cages as well. In theory wild squirrels not only drink standing water, they suck and lick water off leaves,
out of wood, bark and other sources. Last year when the temps here was so hot they even punched holes in my garden hose to suck the water out of it.

[Javarat]

Stepenstone, I am NOT totally out of line.
I note you do not even address that she is feeding these 8 week old squirrels formula EVERY FOUR HOURS.
Also address why '8 week old squirrels' only weigh 165 and 116 grams.

[Javarat]

Yes, they should be introduced to healthy blocks at first.
I am not bashing that 'protocol'.

I am more concerned with why:
- Two 8 week siblings weigh 165g and 116g. Why the drastic difference in size? Is this 'Mavis' who had diarrhea 2 weeks ago, and who was eating goats milk and solid foods at that time?
- Did she take them off solids based on board advice and put them on a block/formula only diet for the last two weeks? Two weeks ago she posted she was giving a 6 week old pair of squirrels "apple, avocado, pecan, yellow squash".
- Why are these squirrels only 165g and 116G (instead of around 300g) at 8 weeks? How much have they grown in the last two weeks?
- Why are they getting formula every 4 hours instead of the normal 8 hour schedule?

Yes, my humor in saying I would send blocks was out of line. It was meant as humor, because some people adhere to the 'block only' rule far too long. Some squirrels simply never eat blocks. Just like some kids never eat brussel sprouts. You can't set an indefinite protocol of no other food until they eat their brussels.

But we need to get off our egos and look at more of the details with these two squirrels. If they used to have other foods, and then went to blocks only, and have not eaten them for two weeks... we already broken the rule.
Continuing to give them only blocks, that they are not eating, is going to result in a less than healthy squirrel. And feeding them twice as much formula to compensate is going to most likely result in diarrhea.

[stepnstone]

Stepenstone, I am NOT totally out of line.
I note you do not even address that she is feeding these 8 week old squirrels formula EVERY FOUR HOURS.
Also address why '8 week old squirrels' only weigh 165 and 116 grams.

Your right, I didn't address it! The over feeding is/was in the amount she was feeding per feeding not that she was feeding every 4-5 hours with not through the night.

I also have an 8 week old that came in at 112 and being fed 4 x every 24 that now weighs 150 grams because he's being fed 4x a day and eating block!
I'm not dealing with diarrhea either! The difference is mine was being fed at 5% and not being over fed each feeding. A mistake many make by trying to fatten them up too fast and increasing to 7% or more before their systems are ready to process the increase.
One can not simply feed by age on a squirrel that is already compromised by being underweight. All squirrels are not created equal neither should they be deemed to be!

These comments below made by you are so ridiculous I can now understand why I have gotten complaints from some other members on your directives in some of the other forums you evidently have given your "advice" on.

Formula is not just about calcium and block is an essential part of a squirrel's diet regardless of captive or being rehabbed to release.
As with formula, block assures needed calcium and has everything to do with supplying a squirrel's nutritional requirements and nothing to do with getting "grossly overweight."
FYI... Vegetables will increase the activity of diarrhea in a squirrel already suffering through it which is why it is recommended to stop feeding vegetables (and fruit) until after the diarrhea has been addressed.


You should only be giving them formula as a calcium supplement.

Don't get hung up on 'no other foods until they eat the blocks'.
This is only true for a squirrel that is not going to be released.
Because they have to live mostly on blocks to not get grossly overweight.
If you are releasing this squirrel, it will not matter if they do not like healthy blocks.

To heck with the healthy blocks! They did not eat them.. time to move on!

You definitely need to get more solids into them at this point to stop the diarrhea..
Start adding arugula, kale, broccoli, and snap peas (snow peas) today.

[Javarat]

Take this to a PM Stepnstone.

[stepnstone]

Take this to a PM Stepnstone.

Not happening!
Not only could I resent your approach at telling me to take to pm, I do not have the desire
nor the obligation to indulge you in personal conversation and this one is also closed.
Moving on...

[cleolovelee]

I am more concerned with why:
- Two 8 week siblings weigh 165g and 116g. Why the drastic difference in size? Is this 'Mavis' who had diarrhea 2 weeks ago, and who was eating goats milk and solid foods at that time?
- Did she take them off solids based on board advice and put them on a block/formula only diet for the last two weeks? Two weeks ago she posted she was giving a 6 week old pair of squirrels "apple, avocado, pecan, yellow squash".
- Why are these squirrels only 165g and 116G (instead of around 300g) at 8 weeks? How much have they grown in the last two weeks?
- Why are they getting formula every 4 hours instead of the normal 8 hour schedule?

These two squirrels were given to me by my sponsor. She received ten in one day and offloaded two to me for space reasons. The two squirrels, Mavis (F) and Charlie (M), had opened their eyes the day before she gave them to me. However, these two were suuuuuper tiny when I received them, and it was my sponsor's thought that perhaps they opened their eyes early due to being late season babies. So, yes, this is the same Mavis that I referred to on an earlier thread. I started this one because that one hadn't received much traffic AND the brother had started the same symptoms.

Yes, both of these babies were on goat's milk and solids (sort of) when I posed the first thread. And, due to the advice I received on the board, I did change their formula to the correct esbilac puppy formula and remove solids from their diet, replacing them with squirrel block. At that time, both squirrels were eating fine and only Mavis had diarrhea.

I feed them every four hours simply because they are babies and that is what I have always done. I was not aware of the 5-7% rule. Is there a chart somewhere that lists this?? This is my first year rehabbing so I don't know all the ropes yet. I don't know why these two are so much smaller than normal. My other squirrel, Basil, is (I think) a week older. Or, at least that is my guess. Her eyes opened the day before I received Mavis and Charlie into my care. My sponsor placed Mavis and Charlie with me specifically because all three had just opened their eyes and had a better chance at bonding and getting along. However, Mavis and Charlie were HALF the size of Basil, and have remained as such. Basil weighs 240g. I weighed her the same day I got the weight for M and C.

I weighed all three again just now (haven't eaten in at least 4 hours) and here are their weights as of today, Friday, September 20, at 4:00 PM:

Mavis: 111g
Charlie: 162g
Basil: 245g

[Spanky]

I was not aware of the 5-7% rule. Is there a chart somewhere that lists this??

SquirrelBoard Feeding CheatSheet.pdf

[cleolovelee]

At their most recent feeding, which was just after I posted their weights, this is what I fed:

Mavis: 7cc (111 x 6% = 6.66, rounded up to 7)
Charlie: 10cc (163 x 6% = 9.78, rounded up to 10)
Basil: 18 - 20cc (245 x 6% = 14.70, rounded up to 15, but she is healthy and was still hungry, so I let her eat until she didn't want any more)

Are these amounts too much? Too little? Okay? I am so confused. In my previous post, I posted a picture of the three of them the day after I got Mavis and Charlie. You can see how much smaller they were than Basil. I am posting that pic to this thread for ease of reference.

Basil is the on the left in the first picture, and the one on her back in the second. These were taken the day after I received Mavis and Charlie and are for size reference at intake. You can see by the tail that Mavis and Charlie were much younger than Basil. I am assuming at least a week. Plus, at the time of these pix, her tummy was fully covered in fur, no pink showing. Mavis and Charlie had a LOT of pink still showing. Maybe this is why they are still so much smaller?? Maybe they are more than a week younger than Basil? I am not sure. I am admittedly not good at aging animals.

[Javarat]

Not happening!
Not only could I resent your approach at telling me to take to pm, I do not have the desire
nor the obligation to indulge you in personal conversation and this one is also closed.
Moving on...

I was asking you to talk with me in a PM.
My intent here is to help, not hinder or harm.
But I am still new to this, and do make mistakes.
I am a firm believer that the best asset to improving myself is the input of my harshest critic.
However, you are correct that you have no obligation to help me do that,
and I apologize for both upsetting you and posting incorrect information.

[stepnstone]

At their most recent feeding, which was just after I posted their weights, this is what I fed:
Mavis: 7cc (111 x 6% = 6.66, rounded up to 7)
Charlie: 10cc (163 x 6% = 9.78, rounded up to 10)
Basil: 18 - 20cc (245 x 6% = 14.70, rounded up to 15, but she is healthy and was still hungry, so I let her eat until she didn't want any more)
Are these amounts too much? Too little?

Marvis and Charlie are the ones with diarrhea, 6% is a mid range and fine for now with addressing 'the diarrhea. I wouldn't push it...
Basil is good with eating what he'll take as long as his bowels remain stable. If he even has the hint of them getting soft I'd back off
the amount you are allowing him.

How are the two doing on the Brat, has there been much of a change?

Love this picture!!