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Thread: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

  1. #1
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    Default is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    so my foxer will be 4 in August. He is not neutered. I follow the nutrition chart. I have noticed that gravity has been working on his skin after he begins to lose his winter weight. The sagging skin is upper body it looks like man boobs and some sagging under his arms as well. Has anyone seen this saggy skin issue with their adults?

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    Oh yah, allot of squirrels get this; yet better that they lose the excess weight that they don't need in captivity, than to remain heavier and carry over the weight to the next year, that ends up increasing their weight annually. Maintaining a healthy weight is what veterinarians advise is needful to support their long-term health in captivity.

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    My fox girl had saggy skin, the real concern isn't that though it is the accummulation of fat around the internal organs that happens in captivity from over feeding nuts and grains mostly. The fat is not that which is located under the skin that they tend to lose in the spring going into the summer that causes the saggy skin. For this reason I didn't think that our girl was obese; yet it is the 'visceral' fat in and around the internal organs, that the vet showed me on our girl's x-ray. That's when I learned that this kind of fat acccumulation pressented a significant health risk to her health, not the fat under the skin. Loose skine doesn't then represent good health alone, but overall weight does.

    Can you tell me what the weight of your fox squirrel is presently?

    Another factor to health that relates directly to the diet is 'mean urine pH'. This can be determined by using Hydrion pH urine testing strips (see below) to determine the value. Begin by taking three readings during the day at least 1 hour before the first meal; then the next morning fasting take the fourth from the first urine of the day before the first meal. Add up the four readings and divide by the number of readings (4), gives you the value for the mean urine pH. Above 7.0 is abnormal alkaline range, and below 6.0 is also abnormal highly acidic range. 6.0 to 6.8 is slightly acidic, which is optimum healthy range for digestion, and prevention of urinary and arterial calcium stones that can form in various parts of the body, which occur in both overly acidic and alkaline pH urine range in mammals, most commonly presenting in midlife.

    The optimum normal mean urine pH has been found to be t 6.4 to 6.5, yet up to 6.8 is a good reading.

    https://www.amazon.com/Hydrion-Chart...SIN=B00QLBVP74

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    i will do my best to get him on the scale for a current weight check tonight. I have urine test strips for dogs and cats that i use to check his urine when i can. ph usually runs abou 7 but i have seen 8. glucose, protein, and the other readings
    are showing normal. but it is not a sterile urine test and they are not for squirrels, so idk the accuracy.
    As for feeding nuts and grains i am pretty strict. He will get a nut twice a week if he's lucky, and i never give him corn or seeds. His staples are...Henry's, monkey biscuits, teklad blocks, and sometimes zupreme parrot food the crunchy kibbles, not seeds. vegs from the chart and some fruits from the chart. Since its spring he is getting hibiscus , roses, mulberry, oak, and tender cactus pads. I am guilty though of a small piece of avocado daily that i know i should cut back on. He also gets a tad bit of greek gods vanilla yogert a few times a week. I will order the ph stuff from Amazon, although I think it will be difficult to get the urine samples in that order, but i will try, thanks Rex and his mom

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    would you know the acceptable weight range for a foxer male of his age?

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    Visually on your end, if the neck is thick, and there are lumps of fat on the chest, it would indicate some level of obesity.

    Seeing a view of the belly up close and from the side the same should help; yet due to my older program I can't presently view all the photos posted. Pasting your photos into an Adobe file and posting them in the other forum would likely be needful for me to view them.

    *

    The diet you follow notes (50 g.) of block daily; to determine how much block you are feeding, measure the amount you usually feed daily. If it comes to greater than (50 grams) it would appear you should then reduce the amount of block you are feeding down to (50 g.). If the weight of the block you are presently feeding is lower, then gather up left over bits of block and weigh them. Then subtract that total from the total for the block you gave that morning, to get the amount your squirrel is consuming. Do this for a few days to get an average of the amount your squirrel is consuming daily. Should your squirrel like to chew on block, rather than eat it, this test won’t work.

    In anycase, if obesity is evident, it will still be needful to reduce the block down to support weight lost towards supporting weight on the leaner side.

    By lowering grain block, the main source of calories in the diet, you can lower the weight. Try a reduction of 10 g. then wait to see if it results in weight loss over two weeks. If then the weight is not sufficentl reduced lower it again by 10.

    *

    As for the pH range you noted, that would be on the alkaline side of normal for tree squirrels. Continue to take readings and do the simple calculations to determine mean urine pH. If then the mean urine pH is 7.0 or higher when using ”Hydrion” testing strips that offer more incremental readings so you can see how a meal is effecting the urine pH. The target for normal mean urine pH according to veterinary science, lies in the mid to high end of the 6 range. (6.4 to 6.8) not 6.0 or lower, nor 7.0 or higher.

    To lower the mean urine pH into a healthly range requires either reducing the amounts fed daily of both raw greens and vegetables and N.A. tree fruits, especially melons which raw are generally alkaline pH promoting in the body, or blanchng/boiling the greens/vegetables, which reduces their pH, and in turn lowers the mean urine pH. This is a good option for in boiling those sources the calcium that they contain is reduced by a small fraction; which compared to raw for soures that contain a greater than (2:1) ratio of Oxalic acid to Calcium carbonate (Ox:Ca), add no additional calcium to the meal, and additionally reduces the calcium in other foods these sources are digested with. This due to the form of Calcium carbonate being lost in bonding with the higher amount of oxalic acid that these sources also contain, that transforms the calcium into the insoluble form of (CaOx) n the intestines, and also some of the calcium and oxalic acid not yet bonded that is absorbed into the bloodstream (Heaney-Hanes study -see Table 1), that their bodies are not able to utilize in support of metabolic and bone health.

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    wow Diggie, are you a biologist or scientist? you are so knowledgeable , i am so impressed. So no luck on the scale last night. I felt under under the saggy skin and dont feel any fat lumps. I am Going to try to post some pictures from last night.

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    Not really, just a student of the research of those who are that has a background and interest in animal science.

    Not such a good typist, especially late at night. I debulked, clarfied, and corrected the grammar in the below texts from my last post; this should help to understand my scratchings better.

    'taking three readings during the day at least 1 hour after the first meal; then the next morning take the fourth reading from the first urine of the day done before the first meal. Add up the four readings and divide by the number of readings (4), gives you the value for the mean urine pH.'

    'The range of urine pH you note lies within the alkaline range, that veterinarians cite is on the abnormal side of urine pH for small mammals and tree squirrels'.

    'This is a good option, for in boiling those sources that contain a greater than (2:1) ratio of Oxalic acid to calcium, it significantly reduces the oxalic acid, that would otherwise be available to bond with calcium carbonate in the body once these foods are digested. This due to Calcium carbonate and oxalic acid having a high chemical propensity to bond into the insoluble form of Calcium oxalate in the intestines; but also in the bloodstream, where a significant fraction of both free Calcium and oxalic acid, and (CaOx) are absorbed (see Hanes - Heaney PDF Table1), thus adding to the total load of calcium lost from bonding with oxalic acid into CaOx, which the body is not able to utilize in support of metabolic and bone health.'




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  13. #10
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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    Oh what a cutie!! Thank you!

    He isn't grossy obese, and from your description of your belly exam likely not overweight either.

    Can you get one straight in front of him showing his belly sitting up not standing up?

    Adjusting the brightness and taking a photo during the day should make it easier to see the definition of his chest and belly.

    I wuold focus on getting the mean urine pH corrected and addressing the issue of calcium loss from most of the greens and vegetables

    that have a higher than 2:1 ratio of Oxalic acid to calcium, by blanching & boiling, so that he will be well supported with calcium in his diet.

    Of those greens that are low to nil in oxalates (oxalic acid & Calcium oxalate) that include organic baby (immature leaves) of:

    lettuces, Chicory leaves, dandelion greens (from market) leaves, arugula, watercress, garden cress, Kale, Bok Choy, Mizuna, Escarole.

    Also recommend boiled peas, and baked squash.

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    I finally got round to lightening the photos so I could better see Rex's underside (venter); there is a bit of fat in the upper torso, aka: scoobs, and some excess thickness in the neck area which both indicateg excess weight also. For this reason some weight reduction would appear to be prudent, even so not allot.

    Do you have your squirrel's present weight?

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    I finally got round to lightening the photos so I could better see Rex's underside (venter); there is a bit of fat in the upper torso, aka: scoobs, and some excess thickness in the neck area which both indicateg excess weight also. For this reason some weight reduction would appear to be prudent, even so not allot.

    Do you have your squirrel's present weight?
    Thank you for taking the time to look close at the pictures. I agree he has extra weight around the upper torso and neck. I still have not been able to get him on the scale, he freaks out when i bring it into his room. i am going to leave it in there and try to slowly get him used to it and then feed him a treat on it so eventuallyi I can get his weight. Even though he needs some weight loss.. I gather by your remarks he is not obese just chubby. We are working on calorie reduction now.

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    With weight in the upper torso and neck, it isn't so much what you do see, as much as what you don't;

    that is, the fat that accummulates in and around the internal organs overtime.

    When you see this outer fat reduce, the inner will have also.


    Q: Is this is a gram scale or a human scale. What is needed is small animal scale. You can always place a kitchen towel on it and subtract the weight from the total.

    First leave the towel in is cage for a bit to get his scent on it. Then place the towel on the scale and bring it into the room.

    Let him check it out, place boiled cooled peas on it, and offer him some by hand also.

    Place the peas in a path to the scale and some onto of the scale.

    In time he should accept going up there expecting peas.

    This worked for a friend of mine with a gray squirrel that otherwise never stands still.

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    Default Re: is sagging skin normal in a adult male?

    great idea. it's a food scale so i just assumed it's grams but i need to look and make sure. i bought it to weigh him so i have not used it.

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