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Thread: Mustards, collards, kale

  1. #1
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    Default Mustards, collards, kale

    These greens are super high in calcium and low in phosphorus but high in oxylates. I was reading how nature balances the oxylates in these 3 greens by having such a high calcium/oxylate ratio. Then I read that blanching and drying on low heat (or in a dehydrator) will lower the oxylates even more. It seems to me that, even though it won't be a great source of calcium because of the oxylates, it wouldn't pull calcium out of the bones, plus would offer other nutrient benefits and offer more of a variety. Anyone ever study on this? Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    Diggie's Friend has commented on this.

    I blanch mine before serving.

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    Lowering oxalates can only be effectively done by extensive boiling of cut up stalked vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, when drained and rinsed that will still provide msot of the calcium that they contain raw which isn't biovailailable.

    For leafy greens like turnip greens, bok choy, and Kale that have a positive Ca:Ox ratio, blanching for a few minutes will lowers the alkalinity in support of not over alkalizing the diet as well as oxalates that are on the lower side compared to most other sources.

    How oxalates are reduced is by breaking down the cell bonds that allow Calcium oxalate to be flushed out of the cellulose. With leafy greens notably very high in oxalates, like spinach, chard, beet leaves, collards, and some others, boiling can reduced the oxalates by breaking down the cell walls that allow Calcium oxalate to be flushed out, while destroying the oxalic acid of the soluble fraction. Yet this leaves a green glop devoid of water soluble vitamins and nutrients.

    When it come to the exceedingly high oxalate leafy greens, that include spinach, beet leaves, chard, garden orach, sorrels, and rhubarb, lamb's quarters, and purslane, the highest of which are noted to contain 1100 to >2000 mg. per 100 grams, reducing the oxalate level of purslane by boiling brings it down by about 500 mg. , yet that left over 1100 mg. of oxalates after boiling.

    By far this source is the highest even compared to Rhubarb, which for reason of it's higher soluble oxalics is toxic to mammals. At this level even with the reduction to 1100 mg. with 101 mg. avg. in calcium, this source has an 11:1 ratio of Oxalates to calcium the worst ratio of any food listed as edible. For humans this source could be included infrequently in small amounts in a salad, yet in doing so about 70 % of the calcium in the salad consumed wtih this source would be not be available for supportin bone and metabolic health. Whatis the point in addig a source that contains a high ratio of Ca:P in the plant, when once digested turns into a high calcium demineralizer?

    (See chart in PDF for data) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ooked_purslane

    Abstract

    Purslane (Portulaca oleracea L.) is a rich source of important nutrients such as minerals and antioxidants. In addition, its edible tissues contain high levels of omega-3 fatty acids which are recommenced for a healthy diet. Raw leaves, stems and buds have been reported to contain high levels of oxalate and, therefore, they are not recommended for regular consumption for people who have a tendency to form kidney stones. In this study the fresh leaves, stems and buds contained respectively 23.450.45, 5.580.18 and 9.090.12 g total oxalates kg-1 fresh weight. The stems and buds contained a mean of 75.0% soluble oxalates while the leaves contained only 27.5% soluble oxalates. Boiling the leaves, stems and buds resulted in a loss of soluble oxalates from the tissue which resulted an overall 27% reduction in total oxalate in the tissues. Pickling the whole plant resulted in a loss of soluble oxalates from the tissue by leaching into the vinegar, resulting in a reduction of total oxalate content of the pickled tissue by 16%. Larger leaves contained 40% more total oxalates than the small leaves while the oxalate content of the stems ranged between 4.9 and 6.2 g total oxalates kg-1 fresh weight. The leaves contained 33% soluble oxalate while in contrast the stems contained a mean of 67% soluble oxalates. Overall, the results of this experiment confirm that cooking and pickling purslane reduces the soluble oxalate content of the processed tissue. Reduction in the soluble oxalate concentration of the tissue will reduce the potential of this high oxalate containing plant to increase urinary oxalate output which could then lead to an increased incidence of kidney stones. This is particularly important as purslane has a number of positive nutritional attributes which suggest that it should be part of a healthy diet.

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    The Kohman study has a chart showing the various values for vegetables and fruits for both the Calcium to Phosphorus ratios and the Calcium to oxalate ratios. Since the establishment of modern farming practices most sources that once had a positive Ca:P ratio, and a positive Ca:Ox. not longer do; for over 75 years our soils have shown a significant drop in calcium, magnesium, and inorganic phosphorus, resulting in the lowered values of calcium and magnesium in cultivars grown in our soils over time to an all time low in the present. Reflecting this the studies done in oxalates over the last 20 years that there are now very few vegetable sources that stil have a positive Ca:P ratio, and there are far more vegetables and leafy greens that have a negative ratio of Ca:Ox ratio as a result of depletion of mineral content in our cultivated soils in North America. (see soil deficiency chart)

    Effects of different cooking methods on vegetable oxalate content.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15826055

    Abstract

    Approximately 75% of all kidney stones are composed primarily of calcium oxalate, and hyperoxaluria is a primary risk factor for this disorder. Nine types of raw and cooked vegetables were analyzed for oxalate using an enzymatic method. There was a high proportion of water-soluble oxalate in most of the tested raw vegetables. Boiling markedly reduced soluble oxalate content by 30-87% and was more effective than steaming (5-53%) and baking (used only for potatoes, no oxalate loss). An assessment of the oxalate content of cooking water used for boiling and steaming revealed an approximately 100% recovery of oxalate losses. The losses of insoluble oxalate during cooking varied greatly, ranging from 0 to 74%. Because soluble sources of oxalate appear to be better absorbed than insoluble sources, employing cooking methods that significantly reduce soluble oxalate may be an effective strategy for decreasing oxaluria in individuals predisposed to the development of kidney stones.

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    Lowering oxalates can only be effectively done by extensive boiling of cut up stalked vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, when drained and rinsed that will still provide msot of the calcium that they contain raw which isn't biovailailable.

    For leafy greens like turnip greens, bok choy, and Kale that have a positive Ca:Ox ratio, blanching for a few minutes will lowers the alkalinity in support of not over alkalizing the diet as well as oxalates that are on the lower side compared to most other sources.

    How oxalates are reduced is by breaking down the cell bonds that allow Calcium oxalate to be flushed out of the cellulose. With leafy greens notably very high in oxalates, like spinach, chard, beet leaves, collards, and some others, boiling can reduced the oxalates by breaking down the cell walls that allow Calcium oxalate to be flushed out, while destroying the oxalic acid of the soluble fraction. Yet this leaves a green glop devoid of water soluble vitamins and nutrients.

    When it come to the exceedingly high oxalate leafy greens, that include spinach, beet leaves, chard, garden orach, sorrels, and rhubarb, lamb's quarters, and purslane, the highest of which are noted to contain 1100 to >2000 mg. per 100 grams, reducing the oxalate level of purslane by boiling brings it down by about 500 mg. , yet that left over 1100 mg. of oxalates after boiling.

    By far this source is the highest even compared to Rhubarb, which for reason of it's higher soluble oxalics is toxic to mammals. At this level even with the reduction to 1100 mg. with 101 mg. avg. in calcium, this source has an 11:1 ratio of Oxalates to calcium the worst ratio of any food listed as edible. For humans this source could be included infrequently in small amounts in a salad, yet in doing so about 70 % of the calcium in the salad consumed wtih this source would be not be available for supportin bone and metabolic health. Whatis the point in addig a source that contains a high ratio of Ca:P in the plant, when once digested turns into a high calcium demineralizer?

    (See chart in PDF for data) https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ooked_purslane
    Thanks for the info! Purslane is in group 1 on the pyramid but nothing about boiling it. Watercress is also on the list and it's high in oxylates as well. I wonder if a small dose of glutathione would counteract the oxylates? Or milk thistle? Of course, I don't have to feed them to her at all. Just would love to use these for the vitamin/mineral content. Oh well 😕

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    My feeling on all of these “less than perfectly healthy” items is....ALL things in moderation. Very few food items are perfectly nutritionally balanced. IMHO. I offer them for variety.

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    Dehydrating a source, be it blanched greens, or fresh fruits, will increase the amount of oxalates the source contains by volume to what it was raw due to the water removed

    which concentrates the source and reduces its original weight and volume from what it was raw.

    In blanched leafy greens the increase from dehyrating isn't much; yet in fruits it is more considerable since the oxalates have not been reduced as they are by blanching in leafy greens.

    Again approx. 6 to 10 minutes for blanching (shorterm boiling) depending upon the density of the leaves and elevation, as its best to remove the greens before they are reduced to glop.

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    Added for clarity:

    For fresh leafy greens, or stalked vegetables respectively, not blanched, or boiled before dehydration, the increase in the oxalate load is far greater after dehydration.

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrappyDo View Post
    Watercress is also on the list and it's high in oxylates as well.
    https://vegetariannutrition.net/docs...-Nutrition.pdf

    And though not much can be done in regards to some leafy greens that reduce calcium in the meal, while providing none from the source itself, for other green vegetable sources that are also higher in oxalates, the calcium that they contain can be preserved by means of blanching leafy greens, and boiling stalked greens, which lowers their oxalate content from that they contain raw.

    Kale and Bok Choy, that have positive Calcium to oxalate ratios, can be lowered even further in oxalates by blanching. Blanching also deactivates most goitrogen compounds that the Brassica Vegetables contain that have a negative impact on the function of the Thyroid gland as to lower the uptake of minerals into the bloodstream.

    In other leafy greens feeding immature leaves of the plant that are very low to nil in oxalates addresses their otherwise excess oxalate content. These include: Watercress, Escarole, Mizuna, Arugula, lettuces, Radicchio, and Chicory leaves, which can supply not just calcium, but other minerals and nutrients also that these animals need.

    And though these sources don't require blanching or boiling to reduce their oxalate content, blanching (1 to 2 min.) tops is a good prophylactic to use to destroy potential endoparasites, and bad bacteria that on occasion crops up that that has been reported to result in some fatalities, even so not many.

    A boiling pot of water, that cost very little of time or treasure to provide, can have a big impact on the healthiness of foods included in the diet, which otherwise fed entirely raw may not promote a positive impact upon both short and long term health.

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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    https://www.nutrition-and-you.com/purslane.html

    Purslane contains oxalic acid, a naturally-occurring substance found in some vegetables, which may crystallize as oxalate stones in the urinary tract in some people. 100 g fresh leaves contain 1.31 g of oxalic acid, more than in spinach (0.97 g/100 g) and cassava (1.26 g/100 g). It is, therefore, people with known oxalate urinary tract stones are advised to avoid eating purslane and certain vegetables belonging to Amaranthaceae and Brassica family. Adequate intake of water is therefore encouraged to maintain normal urine output.
    More data on Purslane see attachment pdf. files. (1.31) grams, or (1310 mg.) is one of the highest levels for any food, higher than Spinach that is noted on the list not to feed because of oxalates. Compared even with nuts at 120 to 200 on average for the lower oxalate nuts, this one is a whopper as far as reducing the calcium in the source. For though the noted amount for calcium is high, oxalic acid that bonds with Calcium carbonate is so far higher that makes this source when consumed to be low in calcium, for it doesn't just remove all the calcium the source contains, it goes further to reduce the calcium in other sources consumed with it; this according to research since the late 1930's to the present. Back then many sources of leafy greens and vegetables had a positive (Ca:P) ratio as well as a positive (Ca:Ox) ratio; yet as research of 80 years has shown many of the sources that were once positive in Ca:Ox, are no longer, this due to the depletion of calcium in the soil from the advent of the use of modern farming practices, followed by the use of synthetic nitrogen fertilizers, (pesticides, herbicides and fungicides), and finally in this century GMO's. (See graph)

  17. #11
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    Default Re: Mustards, collards, kale

    Both files note Purslane, and the other notes Lamb's quarters, and sorrels.

    The veterinarian file notes these plant sources very higher in oxalates can reduce calcium and also lend to the development of CaOx kidney stones at the same time. This means that feeding these plants based upon the Ca:P ratio on the basis that the leaves are higher in calcium than phosphorus to tree squirrels is not supported on this key basis, for they do not add calcium to the diet, but deplete it further than if they were not included In a meal/diet.

    The Toxic Oxalate plant file includes descriptions and photographs of these various high oxalate sources, which is why I included it here as a handy guide for the members that care for squirrels. And though this file focuses primarily upon grazing animals (ruminants) numerous studies have been done in rats confirming that elevated oxalate blood levels results in kidney stone formation. A seed oxalate crystal can form in just one day when meals are too high in oxalates, and continue to grown with subsequent meals that are higher in oxalates also.

    The third file, an excerpt from the Noonan study in oxalates refers to these same higher oxalate sources, which for humans should be consumed in moderation. Yet with rodent this is another matter, for unlike humans that dump most of the calcium oxalate contributed by these sources, rodents absorb a significant fraction of Calcium oxalate from these foods that contributes to the potential of the formation of kidney stones in these animals.

    it is important to keep this issue straight, for what is true for most humans, isn't true for rodents, including tree squirrels that have more recently also been confirmed to be 'stone formers' when the diet is high in oxalates.


    Oxalic_Acid_in_Vegetables.pdfToxic Ox plants.pdf

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