Thriving 7 (?) week old, deteriorated RAPIDLY and passed....

[TypeAMommy]

Hello all, I have been lurking on the board since a friend asked me to care for three orphaned squirrels that showed up on her doorstep a week ago. I am not a licensed rehabber, but would like to start to process to become one, as I have gotten the reputation over the years of "the person you call when you find something dying in your yard...."

The squirrels had eyes open, teeth almost in, and hair on legs and bellies. They "should" have been about 7-8 weeks with these milestones, from what I read, but were very small, and just starting to hold their tails up over their backs once in awhile...so I figured they were malnourished, etc. They were all very dehydrated, as my friend "meant well," but had had them inside for 3 days and decided they were weaned since they took a tomato chunk and some kale from her. She had a guinea pig water bottle hanging in a cage for them.

One was cold and dying when I got it, perked up slightly and lasted the night with some pedialite, but was gone by morning. The other two were happy and thriving. I got Esbilac and have ordered the Zupreem Primate food from the squirrel online store as well as some hazelnuts and better o-ring syringes and miracle nipples. I am feeding them with a syringe, carefully and slowly, so as not to aspirate, and as of yesterday, they were taking about 8-10 ounces about 4 times a day, plus eating a tiny amount of parrot food (pet store owner who has rehabbed dozens of squirrels recommended) with the peppers removed (!). They were starting to be interested in broccoli, and fresh green beans, and because of some butt dragging on the second day that I decided meant constipation, ate a raspberry eagerly...as well as more pedialite in betwen forumula feedings. That got their bowels moving and they were happy, playful and eager to eat as of last night. T

he only diffrerence was that one of them was significantly smaller than the other and his tail was not nearly as bushy. Then last yesterday afternoon, I saw that that one's eye (just one) had turned "blue/hazy" as if he were blind. I searched this forum and found that it could be anything from trauma to malnutrition to an infection. I was planning to do more research today, but even though they both went to bed happy and active, this morning, that small one with they eye issue had passed away. I am devastated, and now am worried about the one remaining. He is much bigger, looks much more like a mini-squirrel and just took 11 ounces of Esbilac, but I wanted to know if what killed his brother could be something contagious. I feel like the smaller one's body was not absorbing the nutrients in the same way as his brother, since he was so small and just didn't look "as good" as the larger one, even though he acted fine. I thought you guys might know if I should be trying to get an antibiotic or something for the remaining one.

Of course, like I said, I am not licensed, even though I would like to be, so I can't really "admit to having him" in order to get said antibiotic if necessary...which of course is part of the problem with people like me trying to rehab and release. So please, I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but if you could offer some help and advice without the judgment that I'm sure I deserve for trying to do this myself? I would appreciate it..... Thank you so much for all you do!

[Sara in NW MS]

to TSB! Thanks for trying to save these babies. I'm really sorry two of them have passed away.

I'm a little confused on the amount they are eating. Did you mean to say ounces? They are eating 8 ounces, like the amount that would fit in a baby bottle for humans? If so, that's A LOT of liquid for one baby! Are you feeding the powdered esbilac formula?

I'm not an expert by any means but having a weight on these guys can be helpful to everyone. Do you have a scale that weighs in grams? Can you post a picture of the little guy to help everyone see his age and condition?

Someone with much more knowledge will be along really soon!!!

[TypeAMommy]

Oh I'm sorry! Yes! Ccs not ounces! That would definitely have pointed out the problem wouldnt it?? I had read that they should get as much formula as they want but be cut off while there still a little hungry... I was also trying to hold them to 6 ccs at a time so that they would be more interested in solid food, but Scrat was so desperate yesterday that I let him have 10 ccs at a time if he wanted, which he did for two feelings. I read they should have about a cc per week of age per feeding? I have buying a scale on my to do list for today!

QUOTE=Sara in NW MS;1179169] to TSB! Thanks for trying to save these babies. I'm really sorry two of them have passed away.

I'm a little confused on the amount they are eating. Did you mean to say ounces? They are eating 8 ounces, like the amount that would fit in a baby bottle for humans? If so, that's A LOT of liquid for one baby! Are you feeding the powdered esbilac formula?

I'm not an expert by any means but having a weight on these guys can be helpful to everyone. Do you have a scale that weighs in grams? Can you post a picture of the little guy to help everyone see his age and condition?

Someone with much more knowledge will be along really soon!!! [/QUOTE]

[DarkLies212]

Ditto what Sara said - thank you for taking these babies in!

The cc per week of age thing is definitely not what you want to go for. Once you get the scale, they can get between 5-7% of their body weight in formula to start off with. For example, an 80 gram squirrel can have between 4 - 5.6ccs per feeding. Once they're stable, you can judge by how their belly feels - it should feel like a full water balloon, but never hard.

[TypeAMommy]

Not sure why there are three of them or why they're upside down

[Sara in NW MS]

Don't listen to the stuff that says they should eat about 1 cc per week of age. I'm not sure who came up with that but they obviously pulled that from thin air.
Just an example... I have a little girl who looks to be 9 weeks of age. She weighs 235g and eats 16 ml per feeding. If I went by that 1 ml per week I would only be giving her 9 ml and she would be starving.

Can you post a pic of the little one? That will help out a lot. Does he feel really thin to you? Can you feel his ribs or anything like that?

[Sara in NW MS]

It could be the pic or maybe his hair is messed up from playing but his hair seems to be a little on the spiky side. That's usually a sign that they are dehydrated. His hair should be smooth and not standing up like it is.
Maybe you should try offering him some fluids and get him hydrated. Once you have the scale you can feed him his formula and he will get the proper amount. If you need help calculating how much he should be getting just ask. Someone will help you.

There's a recipe for homemade hydration fluids, let me see if I can find it and post it for you in this thread. They should always be hydrated before they are given formula.

Look at the hair on this little one. Do you see how smooth is it? The back of her neck and head have really smooth hair, she's fully hydrated. That's what you want to see.

[DarkLies212]

[SIZE=3][COLOR="#0000FF"]
There's a recipe for homemade hydration fluids, let me see if I can find it and post it for you in this thread. They should always be hydrated before they are given formula.

Here you go:

Homemade Pedialyte
1 cup warm water
1/4 tsp salt (teaspoon)
1 Tbsp sugar (tablespoon)

[ALittleNutty]

Just remember the 5% is the minimum and 7% is not a hard rule. As long as poops remain firm and not pale he can have more. Just make increases gradually. I would not restrict formula in favor of solids as we want them to take formula as long as possible so they have better protection against MBD when released. I'll give it as long as they will take it. Sometimes they will start to refuse the syringe but will lap it out of a shallow dish. Sorry about the other ones.

One thing I will add is that some babies who are compromised will open eyes early so I judge more on teeth and coat changes in estimating ages.

[Spanky]

Three days with the original finder but how long have they been in your care? (Maybe I missed that?!?! ).

What brand of "pedialyte" was used for re-hydrating?

I agree with Sara to hydrate this one more... Just use sweeten water... I prefer adding just a bit of honey or molasses but (real) sugar will do. I would continue the formula but give hydration in between the feedings for at least a day.

You've gotten some really great advice. I will add a just a few things... feeding according to weight is extremely critical especially so with older babies that are malnourished or not thriving. Always feed according to weight.. or at least until they are 200-250grams and no longer cooperate with being weighed (then they are getting as much as they want (within common sense limits). The "X weeks old" guidelines for feeding frequency is a decent guideline. With any and all malnourished babies I always feed them at least one time at night... they need extra.

As far as weaning, we never recommend weaning them but they usually will eventually wean themselves. The formula is assurance they are getting a good balanced diet with everything they need as well as a safeguard against dreaded MBD; no matter what variety we provide them it cannot compare to what they can find in the wild. So give your baby all the formula they want and don't feel bad she is not "weaned"... that will happen when she is ready and healthy but let her control the schedule.

Please never hesitate to ask question; come to TSB right away and the multitudes of members and the vast collective knowledge can walk folks through almost any issue!

[TypeAMommy]

Hi, here are some more pictures that I just took. Any opinions on how old he looks? Also, I included a couple to show his belly right after taking 6 more ml of Esbilace and a little more than an ounce of Pedialyte (he looked at me like "what are you trying to pull here??? This is NOT formula!") (I'll try the sweetened water, because I think the Pedialyte is too salty tasting perhaps? It's the brand-name "clear, unflavored" Pedialyte btw.)
I got a kitchen scale and he is 3.58 ounces.

I have been caring for the squirrels since late Tuesday night...so this is the beginning of day 6. It really was a shock to lose Ulysses, as he had been so active and happy! They love to sit on my shoulder, and I'm a sucker when they wake up in their cage and hang on the bars begging me to take them out, so now I'm playing massive blame game and I'm starting to wonder if Ulysses may have ingested some of my hair--felt like he was chewing on it and I'd try to make him stop, but he could have swallowed some and got it tangled in his bowel??????

My main concern, besides getting Scrat totally hydrated and on the right amount and types of food, is to know if something transmittable could have killed Ulysses and if there is some type of medicine/antibiotic I should be trying to get for Scrat...... Thank you all so much!

[DarkLies212]

Definitely stop the pedialyte. It shouldn't be used after 24 (I think) hours as it actually starts to dehydrate them. You can use regular water slightly sweetened with a little bit of honey or sugar.

Scrat is adorable

Did Ulysses exhibit any symptoms before he passed?

[TypeAMommy]

Don't listen to the stuff that says they should eat about 1 cc per week of age. I'm not sure who came up with that but they obviously pulled that from thin air.
Just an example... I have a little girl who looks to be 9 weeks of age. She weighs 235g and eats 16 ml per feeding. If I went by that 1 ml per week I would only be giving her 9 ml and she would be starving.

Can you post a pic of the little one? That will help out a lot. Does he feel really thin to you? Can you feel his ribs or anything like that?

Sara, I mean, I can feel his ribs when I feel for them...but he doesn't LOOK skeletal....also, is the picture you attached of a 9 week old? Thanks!

[TypeAMommy]

Definitely stop the pedialyte. It shouldn't be used after 24 (I think) hours as it actually starts to dehydrate them. You can use regular water slightly sweetened with a little bit of honey or sugar.

Scrat is adorable

Did Ulysses exhibit any symptoms before he passed?

Hi, thanks for the response! Other than the eye that I described in my initial post, Ulysses was "acting" totally fine and squirrel-like, wrestling with his brother and eagerly taking formula and at least nibbling on some solids right up until the end. He fell asleep on my shoulder and I transferred him to his cage, and then this morning, when Scrat heard me and woke up, Ulysses was dead in their pouch (a fabric ferret pouch). He was still a bit warm, but that could have been from Scrat sleeping with him, so I'm not sure at what point between about 11pm and 7am he passed. Since it was so incredibly sudden, I am concerned for anything transmittable to his brother.

[DarkLies212]

I've had one sibling suddenly pass after appearing to be completely fine and the other sibling do just fine (around 2 months old at the time when it happened). I don't have any suggestions for you, unfortunately, as I haven't dealt with many issues/illnesses, unlike a lot of others on here. Others will be on soon to help you! Things are usually crazy around here in the middle of baby season!

Just realized I didn't comment on his age. I'm awful at judging ages as I'm always off by a few weeks

[Spanky]

I have never encountered / witnessed the phenom but I am wondering if there small possibility of "starvation by dehydration"? I am not sure Ulysses fits that pattern but the thought occurred to me. It seems he went 3 days early on without hydration and that can cause organs to start to shut down. I know it is sometimes described as a sudden, unexplained and irreversible decline. And I only mention it since that is not something Scrat will "catch" and it seems the dehydration and feeding have been addressed.

Keep a close eye on Scrat and share any signs or symptoms of illness or changes in behavior etc. Let the board know if you observe anything... if even it seems silly we will not mind at all (especially if more pictures of handsome Scrat accompany the ???).

There are many much more experienced TSB folks that may have better theories.

Edit: I asked about the pedialyte as sometimes folks use Gatorade type things that can be extremely hard on baby squirrel's organs. The amount of salts and additives in these drinks are much more than a squirrel's body (especially a baby) is designed to handle.

[Sara in NW MS]

Sara, I mean, I can feel his ribs when I feel for them...but he doesn't LOOK skeletal....also, is the picture you attached of a 9 week old? Thanks!

I only asked if you could feel ribs and other bones because I was wondering if he was malnourished and skinny. Sometimes the spiky hair will hide the body condition.

So you think little Scrat is 7 weeks old and he weighs 101 g. The pic I attached is a little girl around 9 weeks old and she's 235 g.

The pics you have shared are adorable and he doesn't look terrible in them at all. Maybe a little dehydrated but he seems to have a good weight by looking at him but I'm not sure if it's "normal" (or healthy) for a 7 week old to weigh 101 g. Others will have a better idea.

Have they played around things that might harm them? House plants, potting soil, any small children's toys, cleaners/soaps, and anything you can think of? I have no answers when it comes to what caused his death. It's tragic and I'm so sorry it happened.

Can you post pics of their cage? Maybe there's something we are missing. Maybe he was just sick and you didn't know it. There are so MANY what if's.

[TypeAMommy]

I have never encountered / witnessed the phenom but I am wondering if there small possibility of "starvation by dehydration"? I am not sure Ulysses fits that pattern but the thought occurred to me. It seems he went 3 days early on without hydration and that can cause organs to start to shut down. I know it is sometimes described as a sudden, unexplained and irreversible decline. And I only mention it since that is not something Scrat will "catch" and it seems the dehydration and feeding have been addressed.

Thank you; of course, I feel just horrible, and I don't even want to think about telling my 10 year old when he gets home from school today...so if it could be something that we didn't "do" or could have really prevented (like "irreversible decline" from the severe dehydration before we took them in) that would be a real comfort, even though it's still devastating... I am trying to do everything I can to save Scrat! And what you said does make some sense, as Ulysses never really "looked right" even though he did eat and play and was active......

Oh, and no problem on the pictures. They don't call me Mammarazzi for nothing!

[TypeAMommy]

I only asked if you could feel ribs and other bones because I was wondering if he was malnourished and skinny. Sometimes the spiky hair will hide the body condition.

So you think little Scrat is 7 weeks old and he weighs 101 g. The pic I attached is a little girl around 9 weeks old and she's 235 g.

The pics you have shared are adorable and he doesn't look terrible in them at all. Maybe a little dehydrated but he seems to have a good weight by looking at him but I'm not sure if it's "normal" (or healthy) for a 7 week old to weigh 101 g. Others will have a better idea.

Have they played around things that might harm them? House plants, potting soil, any small children's toys, cleaners/soaps, and anything you can think of? I have no answers when it comes to what caused his death. It's tragic and I'm so sorry it happened.

Can you post pics of their cage? Maybe there's something we are missing. Maybe he was just sick and you didn't know it. There are so MANY what if's.

Hi Sara,

the 7 weeks is a total guess based on googling things like "aging baby squirrels" and going by the fact that his eyes were open and he had fur on tummy and legs and had teeth. My friend who owns a pet store, who haz a zoology degree, and says she's rehabbed dozens of squirrels, thought he was more like 8-9 weeks from these milestones, but he is terribly small for that age IMO.....aaaaanddd since talking with her initially, I have realized that some of her advice is not exactly.....textbook. so I think I'm just going to treat you guys as the Church of Squirrel from now on and only listen to you! so really, I have no idea how old he is, other than he has to be over 6 weeks to have the teeth and fur he does and I've had him a week...so 6 is the minimum....

The first few days, I had been carrying them around in a ferret wearable front pack to keep them warm and since they were eating so often...They came with a cage made for rabbits/guinea pigs that the woman who initially had them had bought, but the first day, my son asked "Mom, why did you leave their pouch open??" I said it didn't matter since they were in the cage and it was just laying on top.. He said, "nope, Scrat's in the cage, but Ulysses is in the open pouch!" So that was the last time they spent in the cage...then I had them in a high-walled tupperware with a heating pad the next night....but the pouch strap must have fallen inside, and you guessed it: they climbed out and into the pouch again. So, Saturday I got a cage with narrow bars. Thank goodness they loved that pouch though! Here it is, during happier times

[ALittleNutty]

I know it was asked but if it was answered I didn't see it. Exactly which Esbilac are you feeding? It should be the powdered puppy formula with pre and pro-biotics.

at them climbing out of the cage and into the pouch.

I would put age right around 6 weeks.