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Thread: Formula Warnings

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Formula Warnings

    When buying PetAg puppy replacers make sure you are getting the correct one.
    We have had several members this week with very sick squirrels due to feeding
    the incorrect formula. (Through NO fault of their care takers, as it can be confusing)
    PetLac sits in the squirrels tummies like cement.
    They bloat, and can not defecate. This could cause death.
    You want to get the PetAg Esbilac Puppy Milk Replacer Powder

    NOT

    PetLac Puppy Milk Replacement Powder.................................................. ........................CORRECT FORMULA



    IF you have already fed this, a long time member has come up with this protocol below that has helped save his babies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duckman View Post
    The trick for me seemed to be getting in as much water, as quickly as possible, once you see and feel the hardness in the belly. Not sugar water or Pedilyte, but plain water. I did this every hour (giving about .2-.3 ml) and ensure you stimulate after each, for 2 reasons. 1. You have to get that water out of the bladder, and it will burst if you don't. 2. You want that water to start working on the crud in the belly. After 8-10 hours, you should start seeing some movement out of the bowel (they will continue to poop, but you will start to see it more watery, which is what you want). At that time, start introducing diluted formula at the ratio of 25% Esbilac, 75% water. Feed this for the first half day. The second half day, I bumped up the ration to 50/50. I fed this for a day and then went to 75% Esbilac, 25% water and introduced full food the next day (and the blockage was gone!). So far, I am at 100% success rate. One note though. I check my pinkies after every feeding, so see if their bellies are hard or squishy. I would suggest everyone get in the habit of checking them after every feeding as habit and you can't go wrong in catching them before they bloat up. Once they take on that angry red color on their bellies (this is when their system goes septic), they are gone and can't be saved, so the trick is to catch them before this happens (hence, getting in the habit to see if their tummies are hard or not).
    Last edited by Nancy in New York; 01-05-2017 at 04:25 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: PetLac and Fox Valley 32/40 Formula Warnings

    In case you have used PetLac OR Fox Valley 32/40, this is what one member did for his
    little ones that were given Fox Valley 32/40, and it saved their lives.
    Seems the Fox Valley and the PetLac has the same effect, it sits like
    cement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duckman View Post
    The trick for me seemed to be getting in as much water, as quickly as possible, once you see and feel the hardness in the belly. Not sugar water or Pedilyte, but plain water. I did this every hour (giving about .2-.3 ml) and ensure you stimulate after each, for 2 reasons. 1. You have to get that water out of the bladder, and it will burst if you don't. 2. You want that water to start working on the crud in the belly. After 8-10 hours, you should start seeing some movement out of the bowel (they will continue to poop, but you will start to see it more watery, which is what you want). At that time, start introducing diluted formula at the ratio of 25% Esbilac, 75% water. Feed this for the first half day. The second half day, I bumped up the ration to 50/50. I fed this for a day and then went to 75% Esbilac, 25% water and introduced full food the next day (and the blockage was gone!). So far, I am at 100% success rate. One note though. I check my pinkies after every feeding, so see if their bellies are hard or squishy. I would suggest everyone get in the habit of checking them after every feeding as habit and you can't go wrong in catching them before they bloat up. Once they take on that angry red color on their bellies (this is when their system goes septic), they are gone and can't be saved, so the trick is to catch them before this happens (hence, getting in the habit to see if their tummies are hard or not).

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  5. #3
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    BRILLIANT information!
    Island Rehabber
    NY State Licensed
    Wildlife Rehabilitator


    "Ancora Imparo" (I am still learning)
    Michelangelo


    *
    If you can't afford the vet,
    You can't afford a pet.
    NEGLECT IS ABUSE.

    "Better one day in the trees, than a lifetime in a cage."

    '...and the greatest of these, is Love. '

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  7. #4
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Can anyone opine on liquid Esbilac Puppy Milk Replacer?
    Water, condensed skim milk, soybean oil, cream, sodium caseinate, etc...

  8. #5
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Can anyone opine on liquid Esbilac Puppy Milk Replacer in a can? (Bought at Russel Feed)
    Ingredients in order:
    Water, condensed skim milk, soybean oil, cream, sodium caseinate, etc...

  9. #6
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    The only thing I know about the liquid is that it causes diarrhea
    so we never recommend it.
    If I'm not mistaken, I think it has something to do with different proteins sources.

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  11. #7
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    It is the sodium caseinate that is the issue. The dry powder has both whey protein isolate, which is VERY digestible, AND the caseinate, which is less digestible - which is what allows it to stay in the system longer and thus allow you to go longer between feedings. But in the wee ones, having the easily digested whey protein isolate is the way to go. It may not be as convenient for the human but it is a lot better for the baby.

    The liquid Esbilac has ONLY the casein, none of the whey protein isolate. So it doesn't digest properly and either sits in the system not going through until it begins to ferment and cause bloat; or the system just rejects it and it shoots through undigested as diarrhea.

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  13. #8
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Quote Originally Posted by CritterMom View Post
    It is the sodium caseinate that is the issue. The dry powder has both whey protein isolate, which is VERY digestible, AND the caseinate, which is less digestible - which is what allows it to stay in the system longer and thus allow you to go longer between feedings. But in the wee ones, having the easily digested whey protein isolate is the way to go. It may not be as convenient for the human but it is a lot better for the baby.

    The liquid Esbilac has ONLY the casein, none of the whey protein isolate. So it doesn't digest properly and either sits in the system not going through until it begins to ferment and cause bloat; or the system just rejects it and it shoots through undigested as diarrhea.

    This is why we always suggest that if you can't find the can of dry puppy esbilac,
    with the banner that says pre/probiotics,
    make sure the third ingredient on the can says dried whey protein.


    In 2014 these were the ingredients in the 32/40, notice NO dried whey protein.
    I've wondered for a long time if the problem with FV32/40 is the lack of dried whey protein.

    Ingredients for Fox Valley 32/40:

    Vegetable oil, casein, dried milk protein, dried skimmed milk, dried corn syrup solids, dicalcium carbonate, potassium chloride, magnesium sulfate, L-arginine, D,L-methionine, taurine, sodium chloride, dipotassium phosphate, mono and diglycerides, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D-3 supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, riboflavin supplement, calcium pantothenate, niacin supplement, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine hydrochloride, pyridoxine hydrocloride, folic acids, calcium iodate, biotin, sodium selenite, natural and artificial flavors added.

    I have a bag of Fox Valley 20/50 and the third ingredient says dried whey protein.
    But if you look at the ingredients on line, (other than the FV site)
    it doesn't list that.

    Last edited by Nancy in New York; 05-16-2018 at 10:56 AM.

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  15. #9
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    I am good friends with Nick the owner of Fox Valley. Please call him with your suggestions and comments regarding 32/40. As a small local producer he is always open to improving formulas and welcomes feedback unlike PetAg which is corporate and does not listen to small product users. We all know PMR is usable but far from ideal while 32/40 is formulated for baby squirrels.

    There was a one time issue with ultra filtered skim whey that was resolved. Admin, please give Nick a call to discuss the 32/40 misinformation and whey protein content so we can resolve this once and for all. Whatever Nick says you can take to the bank.

    I always start 3/1 after hydration transitioning to 2/1 and make sure my FV is well dissolved before feeding. I use hot water, shake thoroughly, and let it absorb water overnight in the fridge. In the morning I shake again and allow time for the air bubbles to rise before warming and feeding. My formula is being readied in this manner while hydration is taking place.

    I have confidence in Fox Valley and their excellent product and trust Nick Vlamis for delivering the best product available in the industry using human grade ingredients.

    Fox Valley: 800-679-4666

    Admin please PM or call me if you want Nick's direct line

  16. #10
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Quote Originally Posted by SophieSquirrel View Post
    I am good friends with Nick the owner of Fox Valley. Please call him with your suggestions and comments regarding 32/40. As a small local producer he is always open to improving formulas and welcomes feedback unlike PetAg which is corporate and does not listen to small product users. We all know PMR is usable but far from ideal while 32/40 is formulated for baby squirrels.

    There was a one time issue with ultra filtered skim whey that was resolved. Admin, please give Nick a call to discuss the 32/40 misinformation and whey protein content so we can resolve this once and for all. Whatever Nick says you can take to the bank.

    I always start 3/1 after hydration transitioning to 2/1 and make sure my FV is well dissolved before feeding. I use hot water, shake thoroughly, and let it absorb water overnight in the fridge. In the morning I shake again and allow time for the air bubbles to rise before warming and feeding. My formula is being readied in this manner while hydration is taking place.

    I have confidence in Fox Valley and their excellent product and trust Nick Vlamis for delivering the best product available in the industry using human grade ingredients.

    Fox Valley: 800-679-4666

    Admin please PM or call me if you want Nick's direct line
    Nick was contacted MANY times and always had the same response, he hasn't changed anything with the formula,
    OR "this is the first time he's heard of a problem"
    Here's a thread addressing the problem when it first happened.
    Members posted when they called and spoke personally to Nick, to no avail.
    https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...ght=Fox+Valley

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  18. #11
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    I'm hearing what you are saying and the goal is to resolve any real or perceived issues with 32/40. I have attached photos 2 current date bags from FV. One is 32/40 and the other is 20/50. Based on the labels what ingredient suggestions would you make to improve 32/40 so it would receive "go-to" recommended status once again? I will personally take the suggestions directly to Nick.

    FV 32/40 Label

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    FV 20/50 Label

    Name:  DSC02295.jpg
Views: 226
Size:  77.3 KB

    My Miss Butters on her 20/50

    Name:  DSC02293.jpg
Views: 225
Size:  68.7 KB

  19. #12
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Clearly I am not qualified to start making suggestions to Nick,
    regarding his formula ingredients.
    Repeatedly he said that nothing changed with his FV 32/40 formula.

    When Junior posted this below, about the new Esbilac containing
    dried whey protein, I took note.
    People were having good luck (as always) with the FV 20/50, which also had dried whey protein.

    I have no idea if FV32/40 ever had that ingredient. All I know is that
    years ago, it was our "go to" formula, and then it wasn't.
    Esbilac Powdered Puppy formula started having problems, and
    that's why we started suggesting FV 32/40.

    THEN FV 32/40 had problems, AND the NEW Esbilac Powdered Puppy Formula
    changed their formula to now contain dried whey protein.

    One of the common denominators with the FV 20/50 and the new esbilac............
    they both contain dried whey protein.


    Quote Originally Posted by Junior View Post
    I have had issues with FV setting up in the little ones guts and within a day or two they pass. I personally am not a fan of FV because Nick uses HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP in squirrel milk.......this is something that I think is causing poor growth rates and diarrhea. It is NOT something that I eat and I am certainly NOT giving it to my little guys!
    Now I am going to say that I have recently (along with several other seasoned rehabbers) tried the NEW Esbilac that has probiotics and Dried Whey Protein Concentrate!!! You have to look on the label to make sure of what you are getting!!!

    Finally once again I am having the fat necked babies that are flourishing......one of my girls gained 7 grams yesterday!!!

    I know what Esbilac has been and done in the past but they have changed the formula, who knows if it is because of all the phone call and flack that they got from rehabbers.......all I can say is it has changed and changed for the better.

    I am getting fantastic weight gains, much less poo (not nearly as hard as when they are on FV) which makes me think they are absorbing/utilizing more of the nutrients.

    I have tried everything on the market.......FV, MultiMilk, Old Esbilac, Century 21, Zoologic......and every mixture in between.

    So far this is giving me the results of the Old Esbilac and the Old MulitMilk.

    In case anyone wants to try I am mixing 2:1 Water to powder and adding in 1/8 part cream once they are up to 25 grams.

    **** I have not tried this on anything under 20 grams, so I am not speaking for the pinkies but I would have to think it is better and my little ones dying from FV!!!

    Good Luck !!!
    Christy

    Quote Originally Posted by Junior View Post
    Hi Farrelli - I get the hottest water straight out of the tap......and even microwave it (1/4 cup water for 15 seconds) if I have to. Then I mix my powder, shake, let it cool for just a second and then add my cream. I have NEVER had an issue with curdling so far.

    The Caseys at Ewildagain.org (?) have the study on mixing with the hottest water possible.....not boiling by any means but hot enough to break apart the molecules that are not as water soluble. Apparently that is why Esbilace was such a bear to mix several years ago was from the butterfat....

    I also try to mix at least an hour before feeding but sometimes that doesn't always happen.

    Just tell people if they have not purchased a can yet that it HAS to have Dried Whey Protein CONCENTRATE (3rd ingredient on the list on the can).

    If they buy the old stuff you will be battling the same old issues......diarrhea!!!
    Last edited by Nancy in New York; 05-16-2018 at 07:37 PM.

  20. #13
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Nick and I had been so close over the phone for years -- up until the debacle of 32/40 a few years ago -- that at one point HE asked a few other rehabbers to beg me to call HIM. I had stopped doing so, out of frustration and, frankly, anger at his complete unwillingness to see the truth. He did not like the fact that TSB was telling folks not to use 32/40 for pinkies.

    There is something radically wrong with 32/40 when it comes to pinky squirrels age 1 day - 2 weeks old. I will NEVER feed it to my pinkies again. I still have nightmares about the slow, hideous way my precious pinks died of bloat.....one after another....slowly and painfully. I don't lose pinkies; that's why I am always eager to take them. Nick said "It's the first I've heard of it..." then, "why don't you just dilute the 32/40"........then "we haven't changed a thing". I gave up. No, I did not call him back regardless of who asked me to.

    And that's the way it was.
    Island Rehabber
    NY State Licensed
    Wildlife Rehabilitator


    "Ancora Imparo" (I am still learning)
    Michelangelo


    *
    If you can't afford the vet,
    You can't afford a pet.
    NEGLECT IS ABUSE.

    "Better one day in the trees, than a lifetime in a cage."

    '...and the greatest of these, is Love. '

  21. #14
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy in New York View Post
    People were having good luck (as always) with the FV 20/50, which also had dried whey protein.

    I have no idea if FV32/40 ever had that ingredient. All I know is that
    years ago, it was our "go to" formula, and then it wasn't.
    Esbilac Powdered Puppy formula started having problems, and
    that's why we started suggesting FV 32/40.

    THEN FV 32/40 had problems, AND the NEW Esbilac Powdered Puppy Formula
    changed their formula to now contain dried whey protein.

    One of the common denominators with the FV20/50 and the new esbilac
    they both contained dried whey protein.
    Excellent points, yet we still use 20/50 b/c it is an EXCELLENT product,

    The photo of the bag or 32/40 clearly shows no whey protein. Perhaps that is the ticket and I will discuss it with Nick. Pinkies have VERY sensitive digestive tracts (as you know) and it's also possible the solids were too heavy in the 32/40 batch that caused problems. Esbilac seems to be a finer powder also that dissolves quicker. I will ask Nick about mirroring the 20/50 ingredients list yet keeping the ratio at 32/40. I know he talked about going to coconut oil. Anyone have thoughts on that?

    We need to worry more about the traffic that is lost to the scalded milk zealots due to page ranking. I would even be willing to re-task my rescue website and load it with SEO linking it to TSB so people searching for "baby squirrel care" are diverted to the proper information instead of "nut jobs".

  22. #15
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    Exclamation Re: Formula Warnings

    Hello, I am new here. My sister just got two very young pink and grey baby squirrels. She got 3, but one just died tonight. She told me to buy her the esbilac for her to feed them, but my walmart didnt have it. So I bought her a different one. I will attach pics. Can someone please tell me if this is safe for the babies?? I am devastated to think that my mistake might have killed one of them!






    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy in New York View Post
    When buying PetAg puppy replacers make sure you are getting the correct one.
    We have had several members this week with very sick squirrels due to feeding
    the incorrect formula. (Through NO fault of their care takers, as it can be confusing)
    PetLac sits in the squirrels tummies like cement.
    They bloat, and can not defecate. This could cause death.
    You want to get the PetAg Esbilac Puppy Milk Replacer Powder

    NOT

    PetLac Puppy Milk Replacement Powder.................................................. ........................CORRECT FORMULA



    IF you have already fed this, a long time member has come up with this protocol below that has helped save his babies.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  23. #16
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Quote Originally Posted by CNeal View Post
    Hello, I am new here. My sister just got two very young pink and grey baby squirrels. She got 3, but one just died tonight. She told me to buy her the esbilac for her to feed them, but my walmart didnt have it. So I bought her a different one. I will attach pics. Can someone please tell me if this is safe for the babies?? I am devastated to think that my mistake might have killed one of them!
    Milk Replacer is not Esbilac. It is the wrong formula, does not contain all the type nutrients needed, not digested as well and usually causes diarrhea which in turn dehydrates baby. You said sister "just got" these babies, very unlikely the formula was the cause. That being said, you do need to get the correct formula with the pre and pro biotics.
    Has she ever raised these babies before this? Does sister have a scale to be weighing these babies? Babies need to be weighed to be fed between 5-7% of their body weight, over feeding can be dangerous. Feeding with too large an instrument can be dangerous. Aspirating formula can be dangerous.
    I'm attaching a link on baby squirrel care, please ask any concerns you may have and we'll do the best to answer them.
    Go to this link. It's 6 pages long with the next button on the top right corner..

    http://www.henryspets.com/baby-squirrel-care/
    Step-N-Stone
    State Licensed
    Wildlife Master Rehabilitator


  24. #17
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    They were brought to her yesterday evening. She has attempted to raise a couple before that were brought to her by someone where her husband works, but they were both very sick when she got them and didnt make it. We have both done a ton of research, but every site says something different regarding food. Fox valley is the best, no dont ever use that! Esbilac is the best, no its killing babies! Goats milk, no never! We have ordered both of the mixed of the fox valley, waiting on delivery, now I read here that it is bad. We just want to save these babies, but I am so frustrated! We are continuing to rehydrate, and will be getting a scale tomorrow. They aren't taking much at a time of the rehydration fluid.

  25. #18
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    Default Re: Formula Warnings

    Quote Originally Posted by CNeal View Post
    They were brought to her yesterday evening. She has attempted to raise a couple before that were brought to her by someone where her husband works, but they were both very sick when she got them and didnt make it. We have both done a ton of research, but every site says something different regarding food. Fox valley is the best, no dont ever use that! Esbilac is the best, no its killing babies! Goats milk, no never! We have ordered both of the mixed of the fox valley, waiting on delivery, now I read here that it is bad. We just want to save these babies, but I am so frustrated! We are continuing to rehydrate, and will be getting a scale tomorrow. They aren't taking much at a time of the rehydration fluid.

    I'm going to copy this reply to your personal forum https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/...ing-the-babies and answer from there.
    Please stick with that thread, jumping back and forth gets very confusing when seeking advise.
    Step-N-Stone
    State Licensed
    Wildlife Master Rehabilitator


  26. Serious fuzzy thank you's to stepnstone from:

    Nancy in New York (09-15-2018)

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