Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

[LaurelLynn]

Ok, don't stone me but I have some growing concerns about how the feeding guidelines of 5-7% are being interpreted .... I've seen multiple places, multiple people and multiple issues that seem to be a trend of under fed babies.

They are all something like this "I'm having this issue. ... explains issues" . ... pictures show skinny babies and person says they feed 5% BW but can't increase because baby refuses or gets digestive issues

Here's my theory. Those are guidelines for the minimum amount needed for maintaining life when adjusting to formula. That's the 'floor' of the 'house of formula', not the 'ceiling'. I rarely have a baby taking only 7% at feedings within a week of starting formula, let alone only 5%

But if they have been restricted to this for awhile, the system is not going to maintain it's ability to process a normal amount of food. We see it in underweight animals. ... They don't have the stomach capacity to eat regular portions and get digestive upset. I believe in some cases when we restrict intake for too long THAT'S when they start having problems trying to increase food when advised, go back to the 5% and baby wastes away

I personally start out at 5-7% as a minimum to work UP to so I know they are getting enough. Once I'm seeing formula poop I let them eat until full. I've never had problems and sometimes I have babies eating well over 10% each feeding. Occasionally I get a mushy poop once or twice that always resolves and it's usually because of too frequently feeding, not the amount

EXCEPT when they have gone too long and eat too fast, they should be able to eat until full without a problem and without being restricted according to guidelines (after adjusting of course)

My opinion is maybe we should be clearer on explaining this? It seems like it's being used to limit feeding and causing problems. Just my opinion

Thoughts?

[island rehabber]

I am in complete agreement with what you've posted above, LL, and would like to suggest that whenever any of us is responding to a "how much should I feed?" post that we use the phrase "minimum 5% and at least 7% of body weight." Truth is I am nearly always feeding 9-10% of body weight unless I see that a particular baby cannot digest that much and I will scale back. It rarely happens in babies over 3 weeks old. Pinkies, sometimes, will need to stay at that 5-7% for awhile but as they grow they increase to 9-10%. The most important thing here is not to use the 5% as a cutoff! It is a MINIMUM. Thanks for starting this thread.

EDIT: I am moving this thread to Squirrel Nutrition -- it is about as "On Topic" as we could be around here.

[Nancy in New York]

Ok, don't stone me but I have some growing concerns about how the feeding guidelines of 5-7% are being interpreted .... I've seen multiple places, multiple people and multiple issues that seem to be a trend of under fed babies.

They are all something like this "I'm having this issue. ... explains issues" . ... pictures show skinny babies and person says they feed 5% BW but can't increase because baby refuses or gets digestive issues

Here's my theory. Those are guidelines for the minimum amount needed for maintaining life when adjusting to formula. That's the 'floor' of the 'house of formula', not the 'ceiling'. I rarely have a baby taking only 7% at feedings within a week of starting formula, let alone only 5%

But if they have been restricted to this for awhile, the system is not going to maintain it's ability to process a normal amount of food. We see it in underweight animals. ... They don't have the stomach capacity to eat regular portions and get digestive upset. I believe in some cases when we restrict intake for too long THAT'S when they start having problems trying to increase food when advised, go back to the 5% and baby wastes away

I personally start out at 5-7% as a minimum to work UP to so I know they are getting enough. Once I'm seeing formula poop I let them eat until full. I've never had problems and sometimes I have babies eating well over 10% each feeding. Occasionally I get a mushy poop once or twice that always resolves and it's usually because of too frequently feeding, not the amount

EXCEPT when they have gone too long and eat too fast, they should be able to eat until full without a problem and without being restricted according to guidelines (after adjusting of course)

My opinion is maybe we should be clearer on explaining this? It seems like it's being used to limit feeding and causing problems. Just my opinion

Thoughts?

Amen to this.
We have to give a "rule of thumb" to newbies, and consider the
age of the squirrel, and their condition.

This is why it is necessary when dealing with the general public to give guidelines
according to what I wrote above.

I always tell people if they appear to still be hungry, to offer additonal,
but within reason, working up slowly and NOT all at once. Make sure their tummies
don't bloat and get hard. Watch the poops, watch the milk line etc.

I have seen pinkies who JUST lost their mom, and they are round, pudgy
little squirrels. Guaranteed SHE doesn't limit their intake, or restrict their feeding
times to every 2,4 or 6 hours.

But when you are new to squirrels we need guidelines for the members to follow to
START off with, after that we can incorporate additional information.

[astra]

hmm... in my experience and from what I've seen, 5-7% has never been given as a "cut and dry" amount.
It has always been given as a guideline, i.e., "rule of thumb," with an added clause that some babies need more. All people have to do is observe the GI activity (e.g., poop colour, milk line, bloat and so on and so forth). That's it.

And yes, babies coming directly from their real mothers do look bigger and fuller than the starving orphans rehabbers usually get. But that may have to do not so much and not only with the amount of mother's milk they ate, but also with the quality of mother's milk. The nutrient content of a mother squirrel's milk, its 'digestability" and the absorption rate of its nutrients by a baby is very different from a man-made formula. If mother squirrels do not limit the amount of milk, it is safe to surmise that "overeating" a natural mother's milk will not cause digestive issues like overeating an "alien" concoction which is human formula.
I've seen babies suffer as much from too much formula as from being underfed.
While experienced rehabbers can have a more nuanced understanding of the issue, people who are new to this do need guidelines and that's what this 5-7% "rule of thumb" is for.
So, as long as 5-7% bw rule is given as a rule of thumb and not a restrictive amount, with an added clause that some babies will eat more - just watch for the GIT activity, it should never be a problem. It all comes down to babies' individual needs.

[LaurelLynn]

I know most of us know not to restrict feedings too much but I think the guidelines are getting lost in translation because I've seen many people and newer rehabbers who are hearing "don't overfeed! Feedings are usually 5-7% BW" are interpreting this as "only feed 5-7%"....

I've never had problems with over feeding. I know a drastic increase causes problems but when I start a baby on formula, I'm using the guidelines to make sure they eat enough. They are usually eating less at first and then get into the routine. As they start wanting more, I just let them have it

Last year's pinkies, I had one that was eating 40-45cc almost every feeding in the last couple weeks before weaning! He never had digestive issues.

As long as they are fed at consistent times, they should eat what they need. Maybe clarifying this guideline and advising adjustments to frequency if they are having issues with over feeding instead of decreasing amount would be beneficial ?

[stepnstone]

hmm... in my experience and from what I've seen, 5-7% has never been given as a "cut and dry" amount.
It has always been given as a guideline, i.e., "rule of thumb," with an added clause that some babies need more. All people have to do is observe the GI activity (e.g., poop colour, milk line, bloat and so on and so forth). That's it.

And yes, babies coming directly from their real mothers do look bigger and fuller than the starving orphans rehabbers usually get. But that may have to do not so much and not only with the amount of mother's milk they ate, but also with the quality of mother's milk. The nutrient content of a mother squirrel's milk, its 'digestability" and the absorption rate of its nutrients by a baby is very different from a man-made formula. If mother squirrels do not limit the amount of milk, it is safe to surmise that "overeating" a natural mother's milk will not cause digestive issues like overeating an "alien" concoction which is human formula.
I've seen babies suffer as much from too much formula as from being underfed.
While experienced rehabbers can have a more nuanced understanding of the issue, people who are new to this do need guidelines and that's what this 5-7% "rule of thumb" is for.
So, as long as 5-7% bw rule is given as a rule of thumb and not a restrictive amount, with an added clause that some babies will eat more - just watch for the GIT activity, it should never be a problem. It all comes down to babies' individual needs.

[pappy1264]

Every baby is different, and no such thing as one size fits all. Good post about watching for gi issues, but using the 5-7% guidelines. In my experience the younger they are, the more important that 5-7% is, as to not have bloat issues, but as they get older I do really keep an eye on weight gain as well as the other things listed. I always have rodent block in with babies by the time they are 4 weeks, sometimes earlier. I find babies who are hungry between feedings will nibble on it, even eyes closed. Sometimes they will suck it, just like a baby with a pacifier.

[Mommaluvy]

I know most of us know not to restrict feedings too much but I think the guidelines are getting lost in translation because I've seen many people and newer rehabbers who are hearing "don't overfeed! Feedings are usually 5-7% BW" are interpreting this as "only feed 5-7%"....

I've never had problems with over feeding. I know a drastic increase causes problems but when I start a baby on formula, I'm using the guidelines to make sure they eat enough. They are usually eating less at first and then get into the routine. As they start wanting more, I just let them have it

Last year's pinkies, I had one that was eating 40-45cc almost every feeding in the last couple weeks before weaning! He never had digestive issues.

As long as they are fed at consistent times, they should eat what they need. Maybe clarifying this guideline and advising adjustments to frequency if they are having issues with over feeding instead of decreasing amount would be beneficial ?

I was taught this. And have adhered to it always. Cause I am neurotic like that. I am going to turn over my 80th squirrel this summer. Never had a problem with skinnies. Have had diarrhea usually with in the first week.

I was taught - better under fed than dead. Not just here but in the IWRC and OWRA training.

Not saying your wrong. But I am pointing out it is not just you loves at TSB
Teaching this rule.

That said maybe I'll try working up to 10 %. Mine are t skinny but they are not pudgy either.

[SquirrelMomBear]

I know most of us know not to restrict feedings too much but I think the guidelines are getting lost in translation because I've seen many people and newer rehabbers who are hearing "don't overfeed! Feedings are usually 5-7% BW" are interpreting this as "only feed 5-7%"....

I've never had problems with over feeding. I know a drastic increase causes problems but when I start a baby on formula, I'm using the guidelines to make sure they eat enough. They are usually eating less at first and then get into the routine. As they start wanting more, I just let them have it

Last year's pinkies, I had one that was eating 40-45cc almost every feeding in the last couple weeks before weaning! He never had digestive issues.

As long as they are fed at consistent times, they should eat what they need. Maybe clarifying this guideline and advising adjustments to frequency if they are having issues with over feeding instead of decreasing amount would be beneficial ?

I'm glad this is being clarified. I'm a pretty good reader, but i also read it as a hard fast ceiling... especially having read somewhere (I suspect before I discovered this board) that squirrels will overeat if given the opportunity...leading to other digestive issues. While my boy is thriving and gaining weight, there are many times when I think he would eat more if offered more than the 7% I've been loading the feeder with!