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Thread: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

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    Default Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Ok, don't stone me but I have some growing concerns about how the feeding guidelines of 5-7% are being interpreted .... I've seen multiple places, multiple people and multiple issues that seem to be a trend of under fed babies.

    They are all something like this "I'm having this issue. ... explains issues" . ... pictures show skinny babies and person says they feed 5% BW but can't increase because baby refuses or gets digestive issues

    Here's my theory. Those are guidelines for the minimum amount needed for maintaining life when adjusting to formula. That's the 'floor' of the 'house of formula', not the 'ceiling'. I rarely have a baby taking only 7% at feedings within a week of starting formula, let alone only 5%

    But if they have been restricted to this for awhile, the system is not going to maintain it's ability to process a normal amount of food. We see it in underweight animals. ... They don't have the stomach capacity to eat regular portions and get digestive upset. I believe in some cases when we restrict intake for too long THAT'S when they start having problems trying to increase food when advised, go back to the 5% and baby wastes away

    I personally start out at 5-7% as a minimum to work UP to so I know they are getting enough. Once I'm seeing formula poop I let them eat until full. I've never had problems and sometimes I have babies eating well over 10% each feeding. Occasionally I get a mushy poop once or twice that always resolves and it's usually because of too frequently feeding, not the amount

    EXCEPT when they have gone too long and eat too fast, they should be able to eat until full without a problem and without being restricted according to guidelines (after adjusting of course)

    My opinion is maybe we should be clearer on explaining this? It seems like it's being used to limit feeding and causing problems. Just my opinion

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    I am in complete agreement with what you've posted above, LL, and would like to suggest that whenever any of us is responding to a "how much should I feed?" post that we use the phrase "minimum 5% and at least 7% of body weight." Truth is I am nearly always feeding 9-10% of body weight unless I see that a particular baby cannot digest that much and I will scale back. It rarely happens in babies over 3 weeks old. Pinkies, sometimes, will need to stay at that 5-7% for awhile but as they grow they increase to 9-10%. The most important thing here is not to use the 5% as a cutoff! It is a MINIMUM. Thanks for starting this thread.

    EDIT: I am moving this thread to Squirrel Nutrition -- it is about as "On Topic" as we could be around here.
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by LaurelLynn View Post
    Ok, don't stone me but I have some growing concerns about how the feeding guidelines of 5-7% are being interpreted .... I've seen multiple places, multiple people and multiple issues that seem to be a trend of under fed babies.

    They are all something like this "I'm having this issue. ... explains issues" . ... pictures show skinny babies and person says they feed 5% BW but can't increase because baby refuses or gets digestive issues

    Here's my theory. Those are guidelines for the minimum amount needed for maintaining life when adjusting to formula. That's the 'floor' of the 'house of formula', not the 'ceiling'. I rarely have a baby taking only 7% at feedings within a week of starting formula, let alone only 5%

    But if they have been restricted to this for awhile, the system is not going to maintain it's ability to process a normal amount of food. We see it in underweight animals. ... They don't have the stomach capacity to eat regular portions and get digestive upset. I believe in some cases when we restrict intake for too long THAT'S when they start having problems trying to increase food when advised, go back to the 5% and baby wastes away

    I personally start out at 5-7% as a minimum to work UP to so I know they are getting enough. Once I'm seeing formula poop I let them eat until full. I've never had problems and sometimes I have babies eating well over 10% each feeding. Occasionally I get a mushy poop once or twice that always resolves and it's usually because of too frequently feeding, not the amount

    EXCEPT when they have gone too long and eat too fast, they should be able to eat until full without a problem and without being restricted according to guidelines (after adjusting of course)

    My opinion is maybe we should be clearer on explaining this? It seems like it's being used to limit feeding and causing problems. Just my opinion

    Thoughts?
    Amen to this.
    We have to give a "rule of thumb" to newbies, and consider the
    age of the squirrel, and their condition.

    This is why it is necessary when dealing with the general public to give guidelines
    according to what I wrote above.

    I always tell people if they appear to still be hungry, to offer additonal,
    but within reason, working up slowly and NOT all at once. Make sure their tummies
    don't bloat and get hard. Watch the poops, watch the milk line etc.

    I have seen pinkies who JUST lost their mom, and they are round, pudgy
    little squirrels. Guaranteed SHE doesn't limit their intake, or restrict their feeding
    times to every 2,4 or 6 hours.

    But when you are new to squirrels we need guidelines for the members to follow to
    START off with, after that we can incorporate additional information.

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    hmm... in my experience and from what I've seen, 5-7% has never been given as a "cut and dry" amount.
    It has always been given as a guideline, i.e., "rule of thumb," with an added clause that some babies need more. All people have to do is observe the GI activity (e.g., poop colour, milk line, bloat and so on and so forth). That's it.

    And yes, babies coming directly from their real mothers do look bigger and fuller than the starving orphans rehabbers usually get. But that may have to do not so much and not only with the amount of mother's milk they ate, but also with the quality of mother's milk. The nutrient content of a mother squirrel's milk, its 'digestability" and the absorption rate of its nutrients by a baby is very different from a man-made formula. If mother squirrels do not limit the amount of milk, it is safe to surmise that "overeating" a natural mother's milk will not cause digestive issues like overeating an "alien" concoction which is human formula.
    I've seen babies suffer as much from too much formula as from being underfed.
    While experienced rehabbers can have a more nuanced understanding of the issue, people who are new to this do need guidelines and that's what this 5-7% "rule of thumb" is for.
    So, as long as 5-7% bw rule is given as a rule of thumb and not a restrictive amount, with an added clause that some babies will eat more - just watch for the GIT activity, it should never be a problem. It all comes down to babies' individual needs.

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    I know most of us know not to restrict feedings too much but I think the guidelines are getting lost in translation because I've seen many people and newer rehabbers who are hearing "don't overfeed! Feedings are usually 5-7% BW" are interpreting this as "only feed 5-7%"....

    I've never had problems with over feeding. I know a drastic increase causes problems but when I start a baby on formula, I'm using the guidelines to make sure they eat enough. They are usually eating less at first and then get into the routine. As they start wanting more, I just let them have it

    Last year's pinkies, I had one that was eating 40-45cc almost every feeding in the last couple weeks before weaning! He never had digestive issues.

    As long as they are fed at consistent times, they should eat what they need. Maybe clarifying this guideline and advising adjustments to frequency if they are having issues with over feeding instead of decreasing amount would be beneficial ?

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by astra View Post
    hmm... in my experience and from what I've seen, 5-7% has never been given as a "cut and dry" amount.
    It has always been given as a guideline, i.e., "rule of thumb," with an added clause that some babies need more. All people have to do is observe the GI activity (e.g., poop colour, milk line, bloat and so on and so forth). That's it.

    And yes, babies coming directly from their real mothers do look bigger and fuller than the starving orphans rehabbers usually get. But that may have to do not so much and not only with the amount of mother's milk they ate, but also with the quality of mother's milk. The nutrient content of a mother squirrel's milk, its 'digestability" and the absorption rate of its nutrients by a baby is very different from a man-made formula. If mother squirrels do not limit the amount of milk, it is safe to surmise that "overeating" a natural mother's milk will not cause digestive issues like overeating an "alien" concoction which is human formula.
    I've seen babies suffer as much from too much formula as from being underfed.
    While experienced rehabbers can have a more nuanced understanding of the issue, people who are new to this do need guidelines and that's what this 5-7% "rule of thumb" is for.
    So, as long as 5-7% bw rule is given as a rule of thumb and not a restrictive amount, with an added clause that some babies will eat more - just watch for the GIT activity, it should never be a problem. It all comes down to babies' individual needs.
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Every baby is different, and no such thing as one size fits all. Good post about watching for gi issues, but using the 5-7% guidelines. In my experience the younger they are, the more important that 5-7% is, as to not have bloat issues, but as they get older I do really keep an eye on weight gain as well as the other things listed. I always have rodent block in with babies by the time they are 4 weeks, sometimes earlier. I find babies who are hungry between feedings will nibble on it, even eyes closed. Sometimes they will suck it, just like a baby with a pacifier.
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by pappy1264 View Post
    Every baby is different, and no such thing as one size fits all. Good post about watching for gi issues, but using the 5-7% guidelines. In my experience the younger they are, the more important that 5-7% is, as to not have bloat issues, but as they get older I do really keep an eye on weight gain as well as the other things listed. I always have rodent block in with babies by the time they are 4 weeks, sometimes earlier. I find babies who are hungry between feedings will nibble on it, even eyes closed. Sometimes they will suck it, just like a baby with a pacifier.
    Totally agree!
    Diarrhea issues as well as diarrhea issues causing dehydration issues.
    So many times it all leads back to over feeding.
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    Talking Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Just to chime in here I totally agree with everyone that 5-7% should be the minimum. The only time that I really stick to it is when I have a baby who I am tube feeding, but even that can fluctuate depending on the individual baby and how starved they were.

    Good post!

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    And I totally agree with everything said above. ... there's a whole bunch of situations where it's an important guideline

    I'm just beginning to be skeptical that it's a good guideline for everyday normal maintenance feeding. I did the numbers and it doesn't make sense. ...

    Example:
    A 30 gm pinkie being fed 5% every 2hrs around the clock= 18cc daily
    A 4wk 100gm baby being fed 5% four times a day= 20cc daily

    ....so they basically get almost the same amount of formula but one is almost four times bigger. The pinky is overfeed and the 4wk old is underfed but both are using amounts per guidelines

    Does anyone know the total amount % BW per day that's recommended? I'm wondering if that's a more accurate amount to advise?

    (Please don't stone me!)

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    I don't have much time to chime in here because I have to feed my squirrels and get to school in half an hour, but I think part of the issue is that we have people feed every couple of hours. I, personally, feed baby squirrels no more than 6 times a day. 6 is for flyers, pinkie reds, and super tiny and super sick babies only. Taking flyers and reds out of the picture, I never feed more than 4 times a day for more than a week, EVER! You can raise squirrels on fewer feedings than most do. They gain weight great and have no issues. They have significantly less issues with bloat and diarrhea. I feed 8% of their body weight as the maximum. I don't like the idea of feeding more than 8% as their stomachs are quite full at 8%. I don't think finders can get the full 8% into them, so I often recommend every 4 hour feedings, which gives 2 extra feedings, so they can drop down to 5% and it works out to be about the same amount of formula. I haven't had any issues with this, but I don't recommend for non-rehabbers to take in baby squirrels very often, so it's hard to say for sure. I can tell you 4 feedings at 8% a feeding leads to normal growth.
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Glad you brought this up, SR&B2, regarding frequency of feedings, because I never get more than 5 per day in unless you count little hydrations in between, and it works well for me also. Of course, with FV you do feed less often because it stays with the babies longer (vs Esbilac or goat milk formula), but even so I never feed every 2 hours, ever --- unless I have pinky mice.
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    I will but my 2 cents worth in being a somewhat novice without nearly the experience as most of you. I think the 5-7% is a great starting point guideline, initially. Commonsense has to kick in at some point when you see your babies doing well on that amount and when they start acting like they would like an extra syringe of food, especially by the time evening feeding rolls around. If my babies are acting like they want more after they've reached their 7% threshold, then I look at and feel their bellies. If they aren't hard then I will let them have an additional .5 to .1 cc, sometimes more, but very cautiously. This doesn't happen at every feeding, but it seems to allow them to gradually work up to more food at every feeding.

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    I'm using Esbilac now and until they are steadily eating blocks I do 5 feedings a day and will allow them to go up to 12% as long as their GI tracks stays normal and the bellies stay soft.
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1959 View Post
    I will but my 2 cents worth in being a somewhat novice without nearly the experience as most of you. I think the 5-7% is a great starting point guideline, initially. Commonsense has to kick in at some point when you see your babies doing well on that amount and when they start acting like they would like an extra syringe of food, especially by the time evening feeding rolls around. If my babies are acting like they want more after they've reached their 7% threshold, then I look at and feel their bellies. If they aren't hard then I will let them have an additional .5 to .1 cc, sometimes more, but very cautiously. This doesn't happen at every feeding, but it seems to allow them to gradually work up to more food at every feeding.

    Exactly. We need a good starting point when advising newbies.
    We never want to go above the "guidelines" on pinkies less than 20 grams, IMO.
    Once you "know" your squirrel, know what to watch for, and do things gradually,
    the amount can be increased.
    I've heard that a squirrel typically takes ~ 5 minutes to actually feel what he has drank,
    so perhaps potty him after the "rule of thumb" then if he still appears hungry, give additional formula.
    Again, these suggestions are for the NEW squirrel momma's and papa's.

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    I'm so glad to hear everyone say that about frequency.... here I am wondering if I'm neglectful cause I feed eyes closed only four times a day and the only night feedings are itty bitty guys while first getting settled LOL!

    My current pinkies go through the night without a feeding now and are doing great

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by LaurelLynn View Post
    I know most of us know not to restrict feedings too much but I think the guidelines are getting lost in translation because I've seen many people and newer rehabbers who are hearing "don't overfeed! Feedings are usually 5-7% BW" are interpreting this as "only feed 5-7%"....

    I've never had problems with over feeding. I know a drastic increase causes problems but when I start a baby on formula, I'm using the guidelines to make sure they eat enough. They are usually eating less at first and then get into the routine. As they start wanting more, I just let them have it

    Last year's pinkies, I had one that was eating 40-45cc almost every feeding in the last couple weeks before weaning! He never had digestive issues.

    As long as they are fed at consistent times, they should eat what they need. Maybe clarifying this guideline and advising adjustments to frequency if they are having issues with over feeding instead of decreasing amount would be beneficial ?
    I was taught this. And have adhered to it always. Cause I am neurotic like that. I am going to turn over my 80th squirrel this summer. Never had a problem with skinnies. Have had diarrhea usually with in the first week.

    I was taught - better under fed than dead. Not just here but in the IWRC and OWRA training.

    Not saying your wrong. But I am pointing out it is not just you loves at TSB
    Teaching this rule.

    That said maybe I'll try working up to 10 %. Mine are t skinny but they are not pudgy either.
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by LaurelLynn View Post
    And I er guidelines

    Does anyone know the total amount % BW per day that's recommended? I'm wondering if that's a more accurate amount to advise?

    (Please don't stone me!)

    6% of bw once a day is the daily maintainance fluid needed to sustain life provided no path loss or dehydration. Per IWRC

    So what your saying makes sense to me

    I also do not do night feeds for typical squirrels and feed 4-6 times a day.
    Unless compromised . Or mice or flyers
    I would not be able to do the few numbers I do and cottontails if I fed much more. As a one man show ... Glad to hear I am not alone.
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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule

    Oh I was totally thinking of this from stuff I've seen all over off the board..... not so much here. I should have clarified LOL

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    Default Re: Let's Discuss the 5-7% Formula Rule


    I found this last night, on Shirley and Allan Casey site.
    Some extremely interesting reads below.
    I know what I'll be doing this weekend.


    WildAgain's Nutrition Calculator


    http://www.ewildagain.org/Nutrition/calculatorlink.htm


    http://www.ewildagain.org/Nutrition/nutrition.htm

    http://www.ewildagain.org/Nutrition/..._and_cream.htm

    http://www.ewildagain.org/pdf/Probio...20Wildlife.pdf

    http://www.ewildagain.org/index.html

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