FOX VALLEY & PINKIES: Discussion Thread

[Starfish]

Really interesting. Really hard to believe that in the beginning of the thread, nick said he didn't know anything. I'm pretty sure someone going to the effort of having a necropsy don't would have reported the findings back to the supplier...

[Nana3]

Really interesting. Really hard to believe that in the beginning of the thread, nick said he didn't know anything. I'm pretty sure someone going to the effort of having a necropsy don't would have reported the findings back to the supplier...

I spoke with Nick yesterday for about an hour regarding the issues I am having with 20/50. He assured me he has changed nothing in the formula but is sending another bag to me to "test" to see if I get the same results.

He said that all of the complaints he is getting is from the South East part of the states and wondered if it has something to do with our water or how hot we are mixing it with. As I told him, I had a bag of 20/50 here that I had left over from my girls that came in Feb. 10th in the freezer and never had any problems with it. Not gritty, clumpy ...nothing. It had an expiration date of Feb. 2014.
This batch I am using now has lot number 042173 and expires Jan 31, 2015. I asked him what the lot number meant.. 04 is for 20/50...217 is the day of the year it was mixed(Aug 5th) and 3 is the year.
As with most of you, I agree SOMETHING has changed.
I will ask Sarah if the necropsy findings were indeed reported to Nick and let you know the answer. I am still on the fence about FV and not sure I will continue to use it.

[smoknbunny]

To Nick:
1. I am in the NW and have had problems
2. Of course it is weighted toward the east side of the country. Eastern greys and foxes are non natives to the NW and illegal to rehab in places like Oregon. Not as many people are free to do it as on the east coast.

I had no problems in the previous couple of years. I am so disappointed.

I got a friend to switch to FV and she has invested in quite a few buckets this year alone and now I have to tell her I don't trust it any more.

[Sissy]

To Nick:
1. I am in the NW and have had problems
2. Of course it is weighted toward the east side of the country. Eastern greys and foxes are non natives to the NW and illegal to rehab in places like Oregon. Not as many people are free to do it as on the east coast.

I had no problems in the previous couple of years. I am so disappointed.

I got a friend to switch to FV and she has invested in quite a few buckets this year alone and now I have to tell her I don't trust it any more.

Smoknbunny!!!

It's so good to see you back on here!! Missed you!

[Sissy]

Please please please if anyone is having problems with FV call Nick directly and tell him. He is in denial that anything is wrong. He is trying to blame everything else except the formula. When I spoke to him he also told me, it might be the water, the way we are mixing it, etc etc. Wrong, to me it's the formula and I couldn't get him to understand that. I also begged him to mix his own FV up and see if he had the same problem. He was going to get back to me to let me know his findings. I am still waiting.
It is not just on the Eastern region. He thinks it's only 2 or 3 people have a problem, so there for there really isn't a problem. He said people are still ordering large amounts and he hasn't heard anything from anyone else. The more we let him know, maybe the more he will believe there is a problem.

[island rehabber]

He can forget that "water excuse" because New York City has the best, purest water in the world -- this is a fact, not my prejudice, LOL -- and I have six squirrels with disgusting, mushy poop. On FV. First 20/50, then 32/40. NOTHING helps, not even the Dia-Stat for very long.

[Sissy]

He can forget that "water excuse" because New York City has the best, purest water in the world -- this is a fact, not my prejudice, LOL -- and I have six squirrels with disgusting, mushy poop. On FV. First 20/50, then 32/40. NOTHING helps, not even the Dia-Stat for very long.

That is so sad and frustrating. Let alone super stressful on us worrying if they are gonna live or die on this mess.

[Nancy in New York]

Nick must think that the rehabbers never talk to one another.
He usually says this is the first he has heard about it.
Well, we know that ain't true!
Does he realize that his credibility is going right down the tubes?
Such a shame, I used to think of him as a nice guy..........not so much now.

[Sissy]

The ole mighty dollar can make the best into the worst. Sad but true.

[sqrlmum]

I posted earlier when I wasn't sure what was going on with my Esbilac squirrels that I got from another local rehabber - I had a problem with them switching over to FV. I used 32/40 on all three because even though the big guy was 5 weeks, he was barely at 3/4 the size he should have been. It turns out they had coccidia prior to me getting them and it went FULL-blown ... but now I wonder? I did a combo of Ponazuril/Albon/Flagyl to wipe out any issues and they are all on 20/50 now and PERFECT. I transitioned the younger two onto the 20/50 and no problems now at all. Beautiful, healthy golden yellow FV poopies yay!

I have gone through at least one bag each this season and have noticed that the 32/40 is grainy and settles on the bottom. I have a lot of littles this year, so my 32/40 was being used pretty quickly. However, both 32/40 bags I've used this year are heavy and pasty. My three littles were all on 32/40, and all have diarrhea. The 3-week-old boy is just foamy light yellow and bubbly and mucousy. I've done both Kaopectate and Imodium, and nothing. It just slides right out of him. His milk line never moves. The two little girls (about 2 weeks old now) also have a non-moving milk line. I added lo-fat vanilla yogurt to their formula - NEVER have had to add ANYTHING to my FV EVER, not even diluting it! - and the girls are completely mushy and the older boy is just like a scrambled non-cooked egg. I held off on the feedings, and even substituted Pedialyte for a feeding to see if the line would move. *Maybe* half of the milk line disappeared on one of the little girls, but not on the other one. I have to give the older boy rehydrating fluids every hour and he doesn't look great (but not losing). On CritterMom's advice, I switched them all to 20/50 with a 3:1 water/FV ratio and with a little yogurt this afternoon. I also gave them Benebac and am just crossing my fingers.

I've been doing this for 3 years and this is the first time I've had a problem with FV. Never had to use UltraBoost, and they just ate like piglets and gained like crazy. Even my pinkies that died did so due to injury or cat bites or respiratory issues - but NEVER with any tummy or formula troubles. This is the first year I've had more than one squirrel with diarrhea (well, outside from overfeeding - ahem!). I don't mean to be an alarmist but I feel terrible that I gave my other guys all of those meds if it was, in fact, the FV and not the cocc. Ugh. Thank you all for your input.

[CritterMom]

Well now that I am here in this forum, I have a couple questions.

I am a big one for voting with my wallet. I have supported FV since the Esbilac change and I bet if you accounted for word of mouth, etc., TSB has probably been responsible for 50% of Nick'sincome in the last couple years. NOBODY has been as brand loyal as this board! But you know, they have to keep earning it, and doing something just because it is what you have always done it is a really stupid reason to continue. IF FV is producing sub-standard formula and Esbilac has cleaned up their act, I would pitch FV over the side without a single qualm. It would make re-writing the permanent parts of the board a lot easier to!

So I have been thinking about this new whey based Esbilac that is formulated with probiotics... I haven't actually FOUND any; Pet Ag doesn't have info about it on their site, so my questions are for those who are USING it.

Probiotics are heat-sensitive - like yeast, heat kills them. So a formula that contains probiotics should have mixing directions that instruct the user to mix it with nothing warmer than lukewarm water - IF the probiotics are in there for any reason other than marketing and window dressing. If this formulation is designed to be mixed without using super hot water, which is how you USED to mix esbilac, it MUST mean that they have changed the manufacturing process to make it easily dissolvable. Not dissolving was the problem with esbilac when the formulation changed, AND it is the current problem with FV.

Can somebody that has this new Esbilac check the mixing instructions and tell us what it says? We might have the holy grail here - and if we DO, the board is going to have to be flexible enough to change their recommendations to reflect it...

[Nancy in New York]

CritterMom, Junior wrote this in the thread earlier, so going by this, I'm not sure you are going to know the new from the old by the packaging or even if they are making a big deal about it. It seems you have to read the ingredients to know if you are getting the "new" one.
I'm with you, not once since I've had a problem have I recommended FV on our board!
I just won't, and to be honest, I cringe when I see anyone else recommending it. We have to find an alternative fast!




I have had issues with FV setting up in the little ones guts and within a day or two they pass. I personally am not a fan of FV because Nick uses HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP in squirrel milk.......this is something that I think is causing poor growth rates and diarrhea. It is NOT something that I eat and I am certainly NOT giving it to my little guys!
Now I am going to say that I have recently (along with several other seasoned rehabbers) tried the NEW Esbilac that has probiotics and Dried Whey Protein Concentrate!!! You have to look on the label to make sure of what you are getting!!!

Finally once again I am having the fat necked babies that are flourishing......one of my girls gained 7 grams yesterday!!!

I know what Esbilac has been and done in the past but they have changed the formula, who knows if it is because of all the phone call and flack that they got from rehabbers.......all I can say is it has changed and changed for the better.

I am getting fantastic weight gains, much less poo (not nearly as hard as when they are on FV) which makes me think they are absorbing/utilizing more of the nutrients.

I have tried everything on the market.......FV, MultiMilk, Old Esbilac, Century 21, Zoologic......and every mixture in between.

So far this is giving me the results of the Old Esbilac and the Old MulitMilk.

In case anyone wants to try I am mixing 2:1 Water to powder and adding in 1/8 part cream once they are up to 25 grams.

**** I have not tried this on anything under 20 grams, so I am not speaking for the pinkies but I would have to think it is better and my little ones dying from FV!!!

Good Luck !!!
Christy

[CritterMom]

Well I know that - I was really surprised when I couldn't even find anything on the Pet Ag site. According to the article that is posted a couple back by Sarah Rowe, this esbilac will eventually replace what is on the shelves once that stock is gone, so they don't seem to be making much hoopla over it.

But what I want someone who has a can of this new esbilac to tell me is whether they are recommending mixing it with hot water. If they are trying to keep the probiotics viable so they actually have some effect on what is consuming them, you could not mix this stuff with hot water or you would kill them. If you can't mix it with hot water, they would have had to change the manufacturing process or it flat out wouldn't ever dissolve enough to be digested! That one fact should tell us that they have changed the manufacturing process that rendered it virtually undigestible in 2010, and THTA would be a really good piece of info to have...

[island rehabber]

I know what Esbilac has been and done in the past but they have changed the formula, who knows if it is because of all the phone call and flack that they got from rehabbers.......all I can say is it has changed and changed for the better.

I strongly doubt that rehabbers were the reason. We rehabbers make up but a tiny fraction of a percent of Pet Ag's bottom line, and they've done fine without us all these years since the debacle. So long as lots of big puppy mills and dog breeders need their products and buy them anyway, they have no incentive to change anything for any wildlife rehabber. That's why I am so cynical about them doing anything right at this point. Now, Nick at Fox Valley -- he NEEDS us. He needs to figure out if something is wrong because we ARE his target customer.

[Squirrel Girls Mom]

I spoke with Nick yesterday for about an hour regarding the issues I am having with 20/50. He assured me he has changed nothing in the formula but is sending another bag to me to "test" to see if I get the same results.

He said that all of the complaints he is getting is from the South East part of the states and wondered if it has something to do with our water or how hot we are mixing it with. As I told him, I had a bag of 20/50 here that I had left over from my girls that came in Feb. 10th in the freezer and never had any problems with it. Not gritty, clumpy ...nothing. It had an expiration date of Feb. 2014.
This batch I am using now has lot number 042173 and expires Jan 31, 2015. I asked him what the lot number meant.. 04 is for 20/50...217 is the day of the year it was mixed(Aug 5th) and 3 is the year.
As with most of you, I agree SOMETHING has changed.
I will ask Sarah if the necropsy findings were indeed reported to Nick and let you know the answer. I am still on the fence about FV and not sure I will continue to use it.

I checked my FV. The lot number is 042173 & the expiration date is Jan 31, 2015. I'm in southwest Missouri.

[Nancy in New York]

I posted mine earlier it is 042023 expiration January 31, 2015.

[CritterMom]

I strongly doubt that rehabbers were the reason. We rehabbers make up but a tiny fraction of a percent of Pet Ag's bottom line, and they've done fine without us all these years since the debacle. So long as lots of big puppy mills and dog breeders need their products and buy them anyway, they have no incentive to change anything for any wildlife rehabber. That's why I am so cynical about them doing anything right at this point. Now, Nick at Fox Valley -- he NEEDS us. He needs to figure out if something is wrong because we ARE his target customer.

What makes you think that the dog breeders weren't also having problems with it? Puppies don't have magical iron stomachs that will digest sludge! Something happened to have made them change their formulation again and I would imagine it was the bottom line that did. If all the rehabbers stopped purhasing it and they lost their dog customers, well, it's time to DO something...

[keetz1205]

Puppies WERE dying from the undigested formula. However, the articles I saw online were mainly based on the numbers of kittens that were dying from Esbilac.

[island rehabber]

Puppies WERE dying from the undigested formula. However, the articles I saw online were mainly based on the numbers of kittens that were dying from Esbilac.

Thanx Crit & keetz -- I stand corrected. I was under the assumption that only a few puppies were affected and therefore Pet Ag saw no reason to remedy the situation at the time.

[sqrlmum]

My FV is lot no. 012093 and also expires January 2015.