Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 101

Thread: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    City Island, Bronx, NY
    Posts
    48,997
    Thanked: 12266

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Good thinking, 2ndHand...once the protocol is revised we will close the thread so it will not be debated in that place any longer.
    Island Rehabber
    NY State Licensed
    Wildlife Rehabilitator


    "Ancora Imparo" (I am still learning)
    Michelangelo


    *
    If you can't afford the vet,
    You can't afford a pet.
    NEGLECT IS ABUSE.

    "Better one day in the trees, than a lifetime in a cage."

    '...and the greatest of these, is Love. '

  2. #42
    SammysMom's Avatar
    SammysMom is offline Administrator, Conn. Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    30,841
    Thanked: 11482

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    I agree with your opinion here 2HRR. What is your opinion on the protocol? Tums or adding D3 or something else or not sure?
    Squirrels, squirrels and more squirrels....
    Prayers for the people who make this a better world...
    savesquirrels@sbcglobal.net



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    sc/nc
    Posts
    6,591
    Thanked: 138

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by SammysMom
    Nobody on TSB will EVER forget your beautiful Sam!!
    I know she was something special to so many TSB Angels.... {{plus I remind everyone almost every day}}

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    10,203
    Thanked: 10

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by jbtartell
    Ok Just soo you are up to date, I did listen to the board and I know I dont have to gamble with their help and you keep talking about research research RESEARCH!well do yours, look at how many were saved by the board! and as with any life they cant all be saved. this is part of life. I also take offence to your continued dissing the board and the people on it.. come on dude, I consider them my Family and have held my toung long enough.. these people have helped me over and over and I am not the smartest cookie but I do know disrespect and rude when I see and hear it. And you have disrespected IR which is the sweetest person and has a huge heart and well you go on and on about these vit d and mag and it is being looked into and you have been made aware and I would understand trying to help but all I see is you keeping on an argument. you are and have been rude to alot of people on here because they dont see your veiw of things.. I am sorry I am not a mean person but I will stand up for myself and the people I care about. And you are so wrong for your behavior here. anyone is welcome and we all try to get along here, yes there are disagreements but in the end we respect each other. My Sam had MBD so bad she was parolized on her hind end and very sick and this board helped me save her and she lived 8 years. they also helped me with her odomatoma.. no one is perfact nore to they claim to be here but we all pull together and even have even been trying to work with you on the researh for this new vit d and mag to be checked into but it is like it isnt enough if there is no arguement for you.. why cant you just stop , let the research be done and just get along with everyone and help us make a difference in what we already know?
    I don't believe that I have been insulting in any way about this and if you think that reevaluating a protocol to see if it is maximally effective is somehow disrespectful, you're pretty off the mark and apparently not as concerned with potentially helping squirrels as you are with conformity.

    Yes, this list is wonderful. It helps many squirrels. If it didn't, I would be here. And yes, the current MBD protocol has helped many squirrels, but my question is whether it's helped as many as possible. Is it as good as it could be? Like I said, there is a bias here about it working for, as far as I can see, two primary reasons: 1) Humans are psychologically predisposed to concentrate on successes and minimize failures - they tend to overestimate how successful a given system is; and 2) The people who have success with the treatment tend to stick around the board and become regular members while those for whom it failed disappear - this creates a significant bias. The people here swear by it because it worked for them, but the people for whom it didn't are no longer around to voice their position on the matter.

    Even if there was a way to statistically prove that it was effective more often than not, if the science says that you could make it even more effective with minimal risk, only a fool wouldn't change it simply because they're comfortable with what's currently "working". This is the way science works! This is the way healthcare works! Take a gander at, for example, a protocol to treat a particular form of cancer, they tend to undergo hundreds if not thousands of revisions, and are constantly being tweaked to make them more effective. No one says, "Well, it's tried and true. The ones who didn't make it? Well, they were just too far gone. It's not the protocol's fault. It, as we all know, is perfect." That just doesn't happen, and if it did, a lot more people would be dead. Fortunately, doctors are concerned with helping patients and actually welcome constructive criticism. They aren't satisfied until a treatment is 100% effective. Though that is rarely possible, they keep striving for that success.

    The current protocol presumes that the squirrel has enough D and mag already on board to make use, of the calcium, but I'm not sure that's a safe assumption. If there is a safe way to make sure that the proper chemistry is present to make use of the calcium, why in god's name wouldn't you do it? That's all I'm saying here. How is that disrespectful? How does that besmirch the list, it's members, or the successes that it's had? Seriously, please tell me.

    I am not attacking anyone over this. You're the only one who's made this thread personal. I just think that if this board is in the business of helping squirrels, they would be open to improvement. And as it happens, given that the protocol changes have been submitted to a couple vets for consideration, it is. I'm glad to see it.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Auntie MM's Boutique
    Posts
    15,796
    Thanked: 6348

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Farrelli - I suggest you go back and re-read the protocol, because, my friend YOU'RE WRONG! No where in the current protocol does it allude to the squirrel having enough Vit D3 and magnesium on board. The Vit D3 and magnesium that is needed for the calcium absorption is provided in the formula and the blocks.

    In addition, the body absorbs calcium in 2 different ways....active and passive. Active absorbtion is Vit D3 & magnesium dependent and passive absorption is NOT! So, even in the remote chance that the squirrel has absolutely no Vit D3 and magnesium in their system, the calcium will still be absorbed. Since the majority of people that use the MBD protocol are also providing the squirrel with formula, the squirrel IS receiving Vit D3 and magnesium so that the calcium will be absorbed through active absorption in addition to the passive absorption.

    Lastly, you requested that additional research be done, you requested that the addition of additional Vit D3 and magnesium be researched and it is being done. It has been stated again and again that all of the research you've requested/demanded is being done. As you know from being in the medical field, good quality research CANNOT be done overnight and if it is, it is certainly of no quality that I would ever trust.

    How about getting off your soapbox for a little and allow the research to be done and allow all of the statistics to be pulled together into some sort of a presentable manner!

    IT IS BEING WORKED ON....in other words, we are doing exactly as you requested.

    Top quality custom cage gear, accessories, blankets, toys, & nest boxes.
    Boutique items are fun, unique, and anything but ordinary.

    TSB thread: Auntie MM's Custom Boutique Website: www.AuntieMMsCustomBoutique.com Facebook: Auntie MM's Facebook Page



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Kentucky
    Posts
    5,431
    Thanked: 1

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Eggs
    Vitamin D3 is stored in the yolk of eggs. In addition to vitamin D3, eggs contain significant levels of the more active hydroxylated metabolite, 25-hydroxy-vitamin D3, according to the Bio-Medicine website.


    Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/25...#ixzz2Hv6dq79O

    Of course exposure to sunlight would be THE BEST way to get Vitamin D??? right? lol.

    So most squirrels are getting some exposure to sunlight every day? And therefore probably not needing additional Vit D? evn tho they have MBD?

    Just musing out loud here.

    not an expert, just able to use google

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Central FL
    Posts
    3,216
    Thanked: 1

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    CSL the topic is the Emergency Protocol...used when the squirrel is in crisis.
    Dietary and other sources of vitamins like sunlight are part of a healthy
    lifestyle to prevent and recover from MBD.

    What is being discussed here is how to pull them out of the severe symptoms,
    like seizures and paralysis.
    By the time they show these, a more drastic and focused approach needs to be taken to stabilize them.
    It needs to be concentrated and swift since the squirrels in this stage
    are not always cooperative in eating or drinking and are in distress.
    "I always thought someone should do something about that, then I realized I was someone” ~ Lily Tomlin

    "The world is a dangerous place not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing" ~ Albert Einstein

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Kentucky
    Posts
    5,431
    Thanked: 1

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djarenspace9
    CSL the topic is the Emergency Protocol...used when the squirrel is in crisis.
    Dietary and other sources of vitamins like sunlight are part of a healthy
    lifestyle to prevent and recover from MBD.

    What is being discussed here is how to pull them out of the severe symptoms,
    like seizures and paralysis.
    By the time they show these, a more drastic and focused approach needs to be taken to stabilize them.
    It needs to be concentrated and swift since the squirrels in this stage
    are not always cooperative in eating or drinking and are in distress.
    I realize that, I was trying to help. I figger if the squirrel is not eating there is no hope for him?

    I thought additional ways of introducing Vitamin D3 was a topic here. I thought additional things to add to the MBD protocol were being discussed.

    I did not mean to suggest eggs were a cure all for MBD, just an easy way to obtain Vitamin D3. Vitamin D is not available in many foods at all.

    Squirrels commonly eat eggs they find in the wild. I would think an egg yolk would be a treat for a squirrel.

    me no stupid much, me have degree from college in science....

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    City Island, Bronx, NY
    Posts
    48,997
    Thanked: 12266

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    no worries, CSL, your idea is a good one and is being figured into the mix here. But as djarenspace9 said, once the critical symptoms (paralysis, seizures) set in the squirrel is too far gone for merely a dietary change to save it. That's why we're discussing how much calcium, D3 and magnesium we need to get into that baby ASAP, those first few days.

    As for sunlight, sunlight is wonderful and provides squirrels with the natural VitD they need. However, for most people with captive squirrels this is not so easy to provide for them....the necessary rays from the sun do not penetrate glass windows or doors, and only half penetrate a screen. So...if you're living in a cold climate or even in the summer if you don't want your house full of bugs, getting direct sunlight onto that squirrel is a problem -- and that's why we get so many MBD cases. Also, in an illegal state people cannot allow their neighbors to see the squirrel.....
    Last edited by island rehabber; 01-14-2013 at 07:44 AM.
    Island Rehabber
    NY State Licensed
    Wildlife Rehabilitator


    "Ancora Imparo" (I am still learning)
    Michelangelo


    *
    If you can't afford the vet,
    You can't afford a pet.
    NEGLECT IS ABUSE.

    "Better one day in the trees, than a lifetime in a cage."

    '...and the greatest of these, is Love. '

  10. #50
    Garden71 Guest

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by farrelli
    The people who have success with the treatment tend to stick around the board and become regular members while those for whom it failed disappear - this creates a significant bias. The people here swear by it because it worked for them, but the people for whom it didn't are no longer around to voice their position on the matter.
    This is not true.....

    This is a little of the subject but he it goes.
    I for one had a sick wild that we thought had poxs. His name was "SPEEDY". IR told me right from the start it didn't look good. I listen to everything that everyone told me to do on the board and sorry to say he didn't make it. It was fate that took Speedy nothing else... .
    I have stayed here and ever since and have learned more about squirrels from the members here than any book can. I have helped save 3 little ones and have treated numerous others for mange. And now since The Skuls have told me about the Echinacea water my wilds are even healthier.
    So before you claim that ever one is running read some posts and you will see that this is far from the truth....

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    15,856
    Thanked: 4121

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    What about presenting the Emergency Protocol as a several tiered guide? First tier can be full on emergency/day 1, get the Tums in ASAP/supplemental heat/maybe pain meds if needed/Ensure. Stuff that can be picked up at the local pharmacy or convenience store.

    Tier 2 could be the beginning of long term care - ordering HHBs and/or the MBD kit, OR getting more sophisticated with the calcium/D/magnesium mixture the squirrel is getting; ordering some FV, taking stock of existing diet, etc.

    We will always have people who want to take the easy way out and there is no getting around that. And my preference would be to get these animals on the HHB foods, be it the MBD kit or just buying blocks and formula there because then the nutritional needs are met without having to try to shoehorn human supplements into a squirrel's need. I also think that adding Ensure to the emergency treatment is important. I would RATHER it be FV but until you can buy FV at your local Riteaid, I think Ensure is the way to go.

    If we can determine the proper ratios, we may be able to come up with a common brand of cal/d/mag supplement that could be added to the supplemental calcium already being given for the MBD... Those people going the route of using th Henrys stuff wouldn't even need to look at this section, but if you have someone married to a less nutritionally dense food like Harlan Teklad, you at least would know they are getting what they need...

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Central FL
    Posts
    3,216
    Thanked: 1

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by island rehabber
    no worries, CSL, your idea is a good one and is being figured into the mix here.
    Yes, sorry CSL, I did not mean for it to sound like I disagreed.



    On the contrary, I am a HUGE proponent of natural food sources.
    Just that I know from experience in a severe case I'd have to syringe feed
    or even force the life-saving vitamins and nutrients, so it needs to be in a
    concentrated form that can be realistically consumed under those circumstances.

    Once they are stable I plan to make them a mushroom and cheese omelet.
    "I always thought someone should do something about that, then I realized I was someone” ~ Lily Tomlin

    "The world is a dangerous place not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing" ~ Albert Einstein

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    43,178
    Thanked: 19305

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by CritterMom
    What about presenting the Emergency Protocol as a several tiered guide? First tier can be full on emergency/day 1, get the Tums in ASAP/supplemental heat/maybe pain meds if needed/Ensure. Stuff that can be picked up at the local pharmacy or convenience store.

    Tier 2 could be the beginning of long term care - ordering HHBs and/or the MBD kit, OR getting more sophisticated with the calcium/D/magnesium mixture the squirrel is getting; ordering some FV, taking stock of existing diet, etc.

    We will always have people who want to take the easy way out and there is no getting around that. And my preference would be to get these animals on the HHB foods, be it the MBD kit or just buying blocks and formula there because then the nutritional needs are met without having to try to shoehorn human supplements into a squirrel's need. I also think that adding Ensure to the emergency treatment is important. I would RATHER it be FV but until you can buy FV at your local Riteaid, I think Ensure is the way to go.

    If we can determine the proper ratios, we may be able to come up with a common brand of cal/d/mag supplement that could be added to the supplemental calcium already being given for the MBD... Those people going the route of using th Henrys stuff wouldn't even need to look at this section, but if you have someone married to a less nutritionally dense food like Harlan Teklad, you at least would know they are getting what they need...
    I totally agree with the tiered approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy in New York
    One thing that struck me about this, is the fact that many people that come on with an emergency are not equipped with magnesium, calcium, or vitamin D.
    Many times they don't even have tums.
    We need two protocols, our current one and what?...the optimal one?


    We cannot throw our old protocol out the window or we will see many more deaths.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Kentucky
    Posts
    5,431
    Thanked: 1

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by island rehabber
    no But as djarenspace9 said, once the critical symptoms (paralysis, seizures) set in the squirrel is too far gone for merely a dietary change to save it.

    I realize that a dietary change is not going to save a squirrel with severe MBD symptoms.

    That is not my intent in posting at all.

    I am thinking, okay give it a TUMS and oh, maybe it should be given an egg yolk as well.....

    As part of emergency treatment, if Vit D deficient, egg yolk could be added to allow emergency uptake of calcium.

    Everyone has eggs at all times in fridge.

    I was trying to think of a common way to introduce Vitamin D3 into a squirrel's diet in ADDITION to the MBD protocol. Since everyone has eggs in the fridge, once MBD protocol is initiated, egg yolk COULD be recommended as an EMERGENCY treatment.

    Once the squirrel eats the yolk, he now has Vitamin D in his body. This squirrel can NOW uptake calcium from the EMERGENCY PROTOCOL ALREADY IN PLACE.

    This would be easier, simpler than going to the store and getting Vitamin D3 tablets.

    Now egg yolk is not going to cure MBD!! But if squirrel is sick and eating, this WILL allow the emergency protocol already in place to work.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    10,203
    Thanked: 10

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by CritterMom
    What about presenting the Emergency Protocol as a several tiered guide? First tier can be full on emergency/day 1, get the Tums in ASAP/supplemental heat/maybe pain meds if needed/Ensure. Stuff that can be picked up at the local pharmacy or convenience store.

    Tier 2 could be the beginning of long term care - ordering HHBs and/or the MBD kit, OR getting more sophisticated with the calcium/D/magnesium mixture the squirrel is getting; ordering some FV, taking stock of existing diet, etc.

    We will always have people who want to take the easy way out and there is no getting around that. And my preference would be to get these animals on the HHB foods, be it the MBD kit or just buying blocks and formula there because then the nutritional needs are met without having to try to shoehorn human supplements into a squirrel's need. I also think that adding Ensure to the emergency treatment is important. I would RATHER it be FV but until you can buy FV at your local Riteaid, I think Ensure is the way to go.

    If we can determine the proper ratios, we may be able to come up with a common brand of cal/d/mag supplement that could be added to the supplemental calcium already being given for the MBD... Those people going the route of using th Henrys stuff wouldn't even need to look at this section, but if you have someone married to a less nutritionally dense food like Harlan Teklad, you at least would know they are getting what they need...
    I'd be fine with a multi-tier, but I'd still prefer to see the D and mag mentioned in the first tier. Most of the people that I've dealt with have had to go out to get the Tums anyway, and chances are that cal, mag, and D are also sold at that store. They're VERY common because women, in particular, are often advised to take them by their doctors due to the increased risk of osteoporosis. You can usually even find them combined into a single pill (or some variant thereof). If they happen to have cal on hand, I think that it should be advised that they administer it there and then, but that they immediately go out thereafter and get the D and mag. The initial calcium dose will be effective if they already have sufficient D and mag on board, but if they don't, that calcium is doing them no good as is, so they should go out and get what their baby needs. As we all know, MBD is time critical, so they shouldn't be made to feel comfortable about waiting until the next day. Almost everyone that I've dealt with, or have seen dealt with prior to my joining, has been DESPERATE to do anything that they can possibly do to help their baby, so I would assume that they will immediately rush out and get what's necessary. The added step of scraping some D and mag off of a human supplement is neither hard nor onerous, and so far the evidence seems to show it to be quite safe.

    Garden71, I didn't say that it was always the case that people whose squirrels succumb to MBD go away, I said that they tend to. From what I've seen, most people showing up for the first time in the Emergency section for MBD have one squirrel under their care that they've rescued or somehow acquired, so if it dies, they have little reason to stay on here. I've even looked into it. If you check the profiles of the people whose squirrels die from MBD, you will see that their activity on the board almost always ceases immediately or shortly after mortality.

  16. #56
    Garden71 Guest

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Maybe the reason for them leaving is because they no longer have a little one to care for.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    10,203
    Thanked: 10

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garden71
    Maybe the reason for them leaving is because they no longer have a little one to care for.
    Yes, that's what I'm saying.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    City Island, Bronx, NY
    Posts
    48,997
    Thanked: 12266

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by farrelli
    If you check the profiles of the people whose squirrels die from MBD, you will see that their activity on the board almost always ceases immediately or shortly after mortality.
    Well...yeah of course it does. You have an animal that you love and suddenly it gets ill. You find people who also love these animals and know what's wrong with yours. And guess what?

    It's Your Fault.

    It's human nature to run in shame from something like this, and to not want to be reminded ever again. That is always going to happen with members who lose their squirrels due to their own fault.

    Some more enlightened folks stay with us and turn out to be highly devoted, active members. Most turn away; it hurts too much and I get that.

    Island Rehabber
    NY State Licensed
    Wildlife Rehabilitator


    "Ancora Imparo" (I am still learning)
    Michelangelo


    *
    If you can't afford the vet,
    You can't afford a pet.
    NEGLECT IS ABUSE.

    "Better one day in the trees, than a lifetime in a cage."

    '...and the greatest of these, is Love. '

  19. #59
    SammysMom's Avatar
    SammysMom is offline Administrator, Conn. Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    30,841
    Thanked: 11482

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by island rehabber
    Well...yeah of course it does. You have an animal that you love and suddenly it gets ill. You find people who also love these animals and know what's wrong with yours. And guess what?

    It's Your Fault.

    It's human nature to run in shame from something like this, and to not want to be reminded ever again. That is always going to happen with members who lose their squirrels due to their own fault.

    Some more enlightened folks stay with us and turn out to be highly devoted, active members. Most turn away; it hurts too much and I get that.

    Squirrels, squirrels and more squirrels....
    Prayers for the people who make this a better world...
    savesquirrels@sbcglobal.net



  20. #60
    Garden71 Guest

    Default Re: Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by island rehabber
    Well...yeah of course it does. You have an animal that you love and suddenly it gets ill. You find people who also love these animals and know what's wrong with yours. And guess what?

    It's Your Fault.

    It's human nature to run in shame from something like this, and to not want to be reminded ever again. That is always going to happen with members who lose their squirrels due to their own fault.

    Some more enlightened folks stay with us and turn out to be highly devoted, active members. Most turn away; it hurts too much and I get that.


Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •