Discussion thread: Emergency MBD Protocol Revisions?

[farrelli]

Yes, I have seen that before, and that's why the vets will be consulted, but from what I've read, a little D3, especially for the first few days wouldn't be a problem. Let's take a common D variant used for this purpose, Cholecalciferol.

One IU of vitamin D3 is equivalent to 0.025 mcg of cholecalciferol, and you apparently need 1 mg per pound of body weight of cholecalciferol to start to see symptoms, with deaths occurring in rodents with 4 mg per pound of body weight. That would be a fair bit of D3. As such, I would think that a small bit of D wouldn't be a problem and could provide HUGE benefits. And as I said earlier, I would only give it for the first, maybe three days or so. The body stores it and you'd just need some at the beginning to get things kick started. The protocol would have to point out that they should watch the dosing, but not be so scarey in this regard that they don't give any at all.

[Milo's Mom]

So, once again, I ask...how much Vit D3 & magnesium is in the formula (FV, KMR, First Born, Esbilac, Goat's Milk Recipe, etc.)?

And,

How much Vit D3 and magnesium are needed to allow the body to appropriately absorb the calcium?

The answer to this question MIGHT answer the entire question regarding the MBD protocol.....we'd possibly suggest one readily available formula over another while waiting for the one that must be ordered, since it has the appropriate and safe levels of Vit D3 and Mangesium.

[Itchiku's dad]

I think what SammysMom and jbtartell have said is very important. If you think about it: most of the people who come to the MBD treatment protocol or a thread about it come via Google. They're not members and probably don't become members. They're Joe public who have Googled their problem, and Google has brought them here.

So, this protocol has to be (for lack of a better phrase) idiot proof. You can't say, " You need to get calcium, D3 and magnesium: 700 mg cal/.501 UI D3/5 mg mag." People are just going to get confused. They probable won't even read the numbers: just see calcium, D3. and think I can use Timmy's supplement he has for his tortoise. not realizing that it has a 100,000 UI/lb ratio, which is not good for the squirrel.
We need something that's easily available, and more that 1 option for the short term: We also need an optimum one for long term treatment.

Anyway the first thing is to find this optimum ratio. Because until we can work out what that is: finding a simple way to administer comes next. We also need an upper limit and lower limit for the ratio. As we all hopefully know: X amount of something is o.k while Y amount of the same can be toxic.

[jbtartell]

Sorry farelli, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I am getting ready to leave so I don't have time to post at length. You seem to be under the impression that Vitamin D is not toxic. Do you know that Vitamin D is used as a rodenticide? Rodenticide ... aka ... rat poison. You need to google ... Vitamin D Rodenticide. It might be difficult to overdose humans but the consequences of overdose in rats, and yes, squirrels is DEATH. The material related to the question at hand is extremely complex. The material I was reading last night indicates that, for rats, the range between acceptable dosing and toxic levels is actually quite small. I think this qualifies as a "down side".

I probably would have shared your opinion a while back, but after becoming aware of this little piece of extremely important information, it has definitely changed my thinking. Sooooo, any recommendations about adding Vitamin D to the MBD protocol needs to be carefully considered. Mind you, I am NOT 100% against it but maybe it should be recommended on a case by case issue as opposed to rewriting a protocol that has proven to work.

this is sooo true.. I will not experment on my babies.. at alll.. not wit anything not tested and proven.. sooo Ok what if I was new and come on here needing help and someone said to give the vit d and mag, I did and gave too much or as said to me and my baby died because I did not know about the toxity, not every one will do the research.. and well there are to many what ifs.. I want to get advice that has been tested and is known to work not something that is said to might work and is just an idea. and well I woulsd not risk it when something is working over and over,and when it dont the baby probably has to much damage to repare at that point. there are some that get to bad for it to work.. and no vitd or anything can save them.. there is a thin line there and well I just cant see risking it.

[farrelli]

this is sooo true.. I will not experment on my babies.. at alll.. not wit anything not tested and proven.. sooo Ok what if I was new and come on here needing help and someone said to give the vit d and mag, I did and gave too much or as said to me and my baby died because I did not know about the toxity, not every one will do the research.. and well there are to many what ifs.. I want to get advice that has been tested and is known to work not something that is said to might work and is just an idea. and well I woulsd not risk it when something is working over and over,and when it dont the baby probably has to much damage to repare at that point. there are some that get to bad for it to work.. and no vitd or anything can save them.. there is a thin line there and well I just cant see risking it.

You may not be willing to "gamble" on D, but you are willing to gamble that they have the necessary nutrients on board to utilize the calcium given in the MBD protocol. I would not be willing to roll those dice, especially since D really isn't very toxic. Some people here portray it as if it's cyanide, but I've yet to see that borne out anywhere. Even given what HRT4SQRLS rightly pointed out about D3 being used as a means of rodent extermination, all the numbers I've found indicate that I could give a squirrel my ENTIRE D3 pill that I take every day, and that would only rise to the level of slight toxicity, and I'd have to give him FOUR of them to kill him. Now, in the protocol, we'd probably be advocating taking a slight shaving of a commonly found human 500 or 1000 IU supplement, so the chances of overdose with that would be slim indeed. There would seem to be a very wide margin of fault tolerance there. Moreover, we'd clearly state that while the cal and mag would be ongoing, the D would be a single dose, or one dose a day for three days, something like that. The vets will hopefully have some input on that.

And about the current MBD protocol being "known to work", my question is how well does it actually work? Has anyone kept stats? It's totally anecdotal, but once I became active on this board and started pitching in with the MBD threads, I had to work on five of them before one survived. And of all the threads that I've worked on so far, I'd have to say that less than half have survived. All that time I kept wondering how wise it was to toe the party line on that protocol given that, in all likelihood, the squirrels being given the treatment may or may not have the necessary chemistry already on board to utilize the calcium to the necessary degree. Now, fortunately,we're discussing the wisdom of that assumption.

About what Itchiku's dad says about keeping it simple, I agree. However, I think that a simple document advising the administering of D and mag could be easily written with the proper warnings about reptile supplements and the like. Moreover, it has been my experience that even with the current protocol, the user ALWAYS solicits a lot of hand holding during the process. "Tums? What kind? There's different kinds! What flavor? Do I have to grind it up? Can he eat it plain? Can I mix it with juice? Can he eat the whole thing? Can he overdose on it? ..." I think I've been on two threads where the person just went ahead and followed it. And they did it perfectly, though they were unclear about continuing treatment.

[Jackie in Tampa]

I am not sure any input I have will help or have barrings here,
however...
and although,
I am not a licensed rehabber...and do not even call myself a rehabber..
I have had a couple...MBD sqs that you all know...
and love,
live thru the worst nightmare seizures...
as tough as I am...I have cried and had Leigh on the phone for many hours, many times, as I jack'ed calcium carbonate in MBD seizing sqs..

I know what I have done for years to have worked,
I have never lost a MBD seizing sq, even have released a few...
hate to seem to have a narrow/closed mind..
but I will continue using the means that I have been... clean calcium.
I have my own version of a shake that I use to suppliment as soon as sq has stablized...and I agree..we love Ensure as well.
I am a firm believer in Henry's products to maintain dietary health during and after treatment.

hands on must mean something...
it does to Kelly Brady...
and Lucky
and Hope
and Rocky
and Kinison
and and and and

and vets are not the answer...very few will know half of what the members here do...
I am not dis'en vets.. I love a smart mind that helps critters...
just saying what I have found thru needing vet help in this exact area...MBD.
NONE have been thorough...none claimed to know a dang thing... simply made generic mentions of cal sups...
I will not use a reptile sup .....too many reasons not too.
Phooey on Rugby's and the likes... 8mg of elemental calcium in 0.3ml..that's a joke...
the fricken sugar would kill the sq thru diabeties if we were able to get enough of these type infant/children's suppliments into our sqs.
did that research already as well...


Sleeping Koala has posted a thread about some local research...USA, Ohio..
being done on a college campus...
contact those peeps and ask them to include some specific research for us while they are doing the basics...
they are probably as well set up for this sorta data search as we could ever find...
they may even enjoy helping...these are young minds wanting to learn and earn, perfect opportunity..well worth asking..
this has been a wish that a few of us have had for years... finding someone who was already conducting sq research to HELP find some fundimental evidence of who sqs really are inside.

and yes...rat poison kills sqs, thank you patti...
I can see those threads already..

I venture to say most MBD sqs will be pets of the age of three years and older...or worse still... young sqs that have been feed improper formula or weaned early...

I have read/researched til my eyes puked blood... for years now...
there are dangers associated with this suggested change..
and I honestly do not see where a change is needed...
but I am not medical or brilliant...and will be lurking and hoping that a good concrete, complete with evidence, answer is found...


the MBD protocool does NOT KILL SQS>>>
...bad diet and no research does.

bless the little souls that have suffered this...
and thanks to the people who will research this...

[pappy1264]

[SammysMom]

Thank-you everyone who is contributing to this thread. I think maybe what we all need to remember here is that TSB does not EVER profess to know the ONLY path to healthy squirrels. The bottom line is that as long as ALL of the information is available here it is good. There are points about Vitamin D that some people feel strongly about on both sides. Since TSB is made up of individuals who can share knowledge and experience it should work out just fine. Today, we have many years of experience with the current protocol. If is is proven through that experience that adding D is what is best, then I am sure it will happen. At this point it has been proven that Tums is the treatment that has been tried and true by the majority of members here. If research proves differently in actual squirrel cases, we should change the protocol. To just change it without the cases to prove the merit would in my opinion be irresponsible.
We are not pretending to be vets. We are member sharing experience. Vets learn things in books and through research on lab animals. TSB is not in that position. TSB is just people who care about squirrels. I think we do a pretty darned good job of it too. We don't take credit for saving other people's squirrels. We are not going to take the blame for killing them. We are the library that lends the information. We are not the surgeons who do the surgery.

[Charley Chuckles]

Just wondered if you coukld buy it online, to have for an emergency they will last a long time I should think

You can't by tums where I am, but I can pop into a drug store and buy Calcium carbonate pills, which will cost just as much if not more than the Henry's Vitamins.

[CrazySquirrelLady]

Once again I suggest Egg Yolk with 40 IUs of Vitamin D per yolk.

Is this a totally dumb idea? cuz no one commented on it. Everyone has eggs in the fridge.

So you got your MBD squirrel, so you feed it some tums and a egg yolk. Problem solved. He gets his calcium and his Vitamin D. YUM YUM

[island rehabber]

Once again a gentle reminder, folks: both Dr Emerson and Dr Pilny, who are squirrel vets, recommend D3, not D. We need to focus on that, I think.

[island rehabber]

Sleeping Koala has posted a thread about some local research...USA, Ohio..
being done on a college campus...
contact those peeps and ask them to include some specific research for us while they are doing the basics...
they are probably as well set up for this sorta data search as we could ever find...
they may even enjoy helping...these are young minds wanting to learn and earn, perfect opportunity..well worth asking..
this has been a wish that a few of us have had for years... finding someone who was already conducting sq research to HELP find some fundimental evidence of who sqs really are inside.

I like this idea, and would be happy to reach out to them.

[jbtartell]

You may not be willing to "gamble" on D, but you are willing to gamble that they have the necessary nutrients on board to utilize the calcium given in the MBD protocol. I would not be willing to roll those dice, especially since D really isn't very toxic. Some people here portray it as if it's cyanide, but I've yet to see that borne out anywhere. Even given what HRT4SQRLS rightly pointed out about D3 being used as a means of rodent extermination, all the numbers I've found indicate that I could give a squirrel my ENTIRE D3 pill that I take every day, and that would only rise to the level of slight toxicity, and I'd have to give him FOUR of them to kill him. Now, in the protocol, we'd probably be advocating taking a slight shaving of a commonly found human 500 or 1000 IU supplement, so the chances of overdose with that would be slim indeed. There would seem to be a very wide margin of fault tolerance there. Moreover, we'd clearly state that while the cal and mag would be ongoing, the D would be a single dose, or one dose a day for three days, something like that. The vets will hopefully have some input on that.

And about the current MBD protocol being "known to work", my question is how well does it actually work? Has anyone kept stats? It's totally anecdotal, but once I became active on this board and started pitching in with the MBD threads, I had to work on five of them before one survived. And of all the threads that I've worked on so far, I'd have to say that less than half have survived. All that time I kept wondering how wise it was to toe the party line on that protocol given that, in all likelihood, the squirrels being given the treatment may or may not have the necessary chemistry already on board to utilize the calcium to the necessary degree. Now, fortunately,we're discussing the wisdom of that assumption.

About what Itchiku's dad says about keeping it simple, I agree. However, I think that a simple document advising the administering of D and mag could be easily written with the proper warnings about reptile supplements and the like. Moreover, it has been my experience that even with the current protocol, the user ALWAYS solicits a lot of hand holding during the process. "Tums? What kind? There's different kinds! What flavor? Do I have to grind it up? Can he eat it plain? Can I mix it with juice? Can he eat the whole thing? Can he overdose on it? ..." I think I've been on two threads where the person just went ahead and followed it. And they did it perfectly, though they were unclear about continuing treatment.

Ok Just soo you are up to date, I did listen to the board and I know I dont have to gamble with their help and you keep talking about research research RESEARCH!well do yours, look at how many were saved by the board! and as with any life they cant all be saved. this is part of life. I also take offence to your continued dissing the board and the people on it.. come on dude, I consider them my Family and have held my toung long enough.. these people have helped me over and over and I am not the smartest cookie but I do know disrespect and rude when I see and hear it. And you have disrespected IR which is the sweetest person and has a huge heart and well you go on and on about these vit d and mag and it is being looked into and you have been made aware and I would understand trying to help but all I see is you keeping on an argument. you are and have been rude to alot of people on here because they dont see your veiw of things.. I am sorry I am not a mean person but I will stand up for myself and the people I care about. And you are so wrong for your behavior here. anyone is welcome and we all try to get along here, yes there are disagreements but in the end we respect each other. My Sam had MBD so bad she was parolized on her hind end and very sick and this board helped me save her and she lived 8 years. they also helped me with her odomatoma.. no one is perfact nore to they claim to be here but we all pull together and even have even been trying to work with you on the researh for this new vit d and mag to be checked into but it is like it isnt enough if there is no arguement for you.. why cant you just stop , let the research be done and just get along with everyone and help us make a difference in what we already know?

[jbtartell]

Once again I suggest Egg Yolk with 40 IUs of Vitamin D per yolk.

Is this a totally dumb idea? cuz no one commented on it. Everyone has eggs in the fridge.

So you got your MBD squirrel, so you feed it some tums and a egg yolk. Problem solved. He gets his calcium and his Vitamin D. YUM YUM

yes all natural is better..

[jbtartell]

I am not sure any input I have will help or have barrings here,
however...
and although,
I am not a licensed rehabber...and do not even call myself a rehabber..
I have had a couple...MBD sqs that you all know...
and love,
live thru the worst nightmare seizures...
as tough as I am...I have cried and had Leigh on the phone for many hours, many times, as I jack'ed calcium carbonate in MBD seizing sqs..

I know what I have done for years to have worked,
I have never lost a MBD seizing sq, even have released a few...
hate to seem to have a narrow/closed mind..
but I will continue using the means that I have been... clean calcium.
I have my own version of a shake that I use to suppliment as soon as sq has stablized...and I agree..we love Ensure as well.
I am a firm believer in Henry's products to maintain dietary health during and after treatment.

hands on must mean something...
it does to Kelly Brady...
and Lucky
and Hope
and Rocky
and Kinison
and and and and

and vets are not the answer...very few will know half of what the members here do...
I am not dis'en vets.. I love a smart mind that helps critters...
just saying what I have found thru needing vet help in this exact area...MBD.
NONE have been thorough...none claimed to know a dang thing... simply made generic mentions of cal sups...
I will not use a reptile sup .....too many reasons not too.
Phooey on Rugby's and the likes... 8mg of elemental calcium in 0.3ml..that's a joke...
the fricken sugar would kill the sq thru diabeties if we were able to get enough of these type infant/children's suppliments into our sqs.
did that research already as well...


Sleeping Koala has posted a thread about some local research...USA, Ohio..
being done on a college campus...
contact those peeps and ask them to include some specific research for us while they are doing the basics...
they are probably as well set up for this sorta data search as we could ever find...
they may even enjoy helping...these are young minds wanting to learn and earn, perfect opportunity..well worth asking..
this has been a wish that a few of us have had for years... finding someone who was already conducting sq research to HELP find some fundimental evidence of who sqs really are inside.

and yes...rat poison kills sqs, thank you patti...
I can see those threads already..

I venture to say most MBD sqs will be pets of the age of three years and older...or worse still... young sqs that have been feed improper formula or weaned early...

I have read/researched til my eyes puked blood... for years now...
there are dangers associated with this suggested change..
and I honestly do not see where a change is needed...
but I am not medical or brilliant...and will be lurking and hoping that a good concrete, complete with evidence, answer is found...


the MBD protocool does NOT KILL SQS>>>
...bad diet and no research does.

bless the little souls that have suffered this...
and thanks to the people who will research this...

Great post Jackie..

[island rehabber]

jbtartell....
and the answer to the question "does our MBD protocol really work?" Here's part of your answer, from Jackie in Tampa:

Kelly Brady...(Richard)
and Lucky
and Hope
and Rocky
and Kinison
and and and and

and stepnstone's Annie...and too many others to remember.
Coming in here at a time when several MBD squirrels unfortunately passed, and therefore declaring the protocol ineffective, is foolish and unprofessional. It would do all of us well to remind ourselves the first and foremost Law of Wildlife Rehabilitation -

we CANNOT save them all.

Also: the effectiveness of the protocol varies wildly from one animal to another. Some squirrels get MBD at 5 months old, some not until 7-8 yrs old, and all the others in between. Some never get it at all. There is a cruel joke we sometimes tell on TSB that even though we promote the healthy diet to the high heavens, and sing the praises of the calc/phos ratios, there will STILL be that 10-yr-old squirrel somebody comes on here with, who has been living on Cheetos and beer his whole life and has thrived. Makes you wanna scream, huh? We don't know all the answers, and we can't hedge every single bet. We just do our best.

[jbtartell]

jbtartell....
and the answer to the question "does our MBD protocol really work?" Here's part of your answer, from Jackie in Tampa:


and stepnstone's Annie...and too many others to remember.
Coming in here at a time when several MBD squirrels unfortunately passed, and therefore declaring the protocol ineffective, is foolish and unprofessional. It would do all of us well to remind ourselves the first and foremost Law of Wildlife Rehabilitation -

we CANNOT save them all.

Also: the effectiveness of the protocol varies wildly from one animal to another. Some squirrels get MBD at 5 months old, some not until 7-8, and all the others in between. Some never get it at all. There is a cruel joke we sometimes tell on TSB that even though we promote the healthy diet to the high heavens, and sing the praises of the calc/phos ratios, there will STILL be that 10-yr-old squirrel somebody comes on here with, who has been living on Cheetos and beer his whole life and has thrived. Makes you wanna scream, huh? We don't know all the answers, and we can't hedge every single bet. We just do our best.

IR Dont forget MY Beautiful Sam..

[SammysMom]

IR Dont forget MY Beautiful Sam..

Nobody on TSB will EVER forget your beautiful Sam!!

[Sara89nicole]

Ok Just soo you are up to date, I did listen to the board and I know I dont have to gamble with their help and you keep talking about research research RESEARCH!well do yours, look at how many were saved by the board! and as with any life they cant all be saved. this is part of life. I also take offence to your continued dissing the board and the people on it.. come on dude, I consider them my Family and have held my toung long enough.. these people have helped me over and over and I am not the smartest cookie but I do know disrespect and rude when I see and hear it. And you have disrespected IR which is the sweetest person and has a huge heart and well you go on and on about these vit d and mag and it is being looked into and you have been made aware and I would understand trying to help but all I see is you keeping on an argument. you are and have been rude to alot of people on here because they dont see your veiw of things.. I am sorry I am not a mean person but I will stand up for myself and the people I care about. And you are so wrong for your behavior here. anyone is welcome and we all try to get along here, yes there are disagreements but in the end we respect each other. My Sam had MBD so bad she was parolized on her hind end and very sick and this board helped me save her and she lived 8 years. they also helped me with her odomatoma.. no one is perfact nore to they claim to be here but we all pull together and even have even been trying to work with you on the researh for this new vit d and mag to be checked into but it is like it isnt enough if there is no arguement for you.. why cant you just stop , let the research be done and just get along with everyone and help us make a difference in what we already know?

I agree with you here, I've seen farelli push an idea on several different occasions and in some of those instances it could of been more of a problem than a help. The existing MBD protocol has worked time and time again, sometimes people jut come looking for help to late or don't follow the advice given resulting in the loss of their squirrel. I understand everyone is entitled to throw in an opinion on what may be helpful in addin to the existing treatment but I believe that once you have stated your opinion and it has been responded to that you should stop repeating and stop pushing that idea (especially against the advise of more experienced people) it takes everyone here who has knowledge and experience with these cases coming together to help and for the person asking for the help to receive the correct information. If someone does happen to sign up to get help and they get the wron info pushed at them they are more likely to try it which may result in a fatality. I'm not an expert and I wouldn't know where I start myself with an MBD case nor do I have any ideas on what to add to the protocol. Sometimes it's just time to go, sometimes no matter how hard we try we cannot save our beloved little friends, that is not our choice, only God knows when the time has come and when he calls for one of his angels no power in the world can change that. I say stick with what works and create a backup plan for the ones who aren't able to do what the original says.

[2ndHandRanchRescue]

All I ask is make it simple. When in a panic - one does not have time to sort through all the opinions and ratios. Down and dirty - not all have had internships as rehabbers nor are many folks rehabbers -
Can we have it locked - as even I who is used to all the threads - gets confused when too many cooks spoil the broth. Love you all - but it gets confusing.
MBD Protocol for Dummies