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Thread: MAY 2010 UPDATE: Milk Replacers Study

  1. #41
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    Default Re: MAY 2010 UPDATE: Milk Replacers Study

    The Fox Valley 32/40 is still not recommended. The formula that folks start with is powdered Esbilac, then as the babies open their eyes they gradually switch to a 50/50 combo of Fox Valley 20/50 and Esbilac (powdered). Or they just stay on Esbilac.

    I'm not sure which FV the poster lizharrel1 is referring to, but it doesn't really matter. The info I stated above is what I believe is currently being recommended.

    If I'm wrong would someone please let me know.

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: MAY 2010 UPDATE: Milk Replacers Study

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1959 View Post
    The Fox Valley 32/40 is still not recommended. The formula that folks start with is powdered Esbilac, then as the babies open their eyes they gradually switch to a 50/50 combo of Fox Valley 20/50 and Esbilac (powdered). Or they just stay on Esbilac.

    I'm not sure which FV the poster lizharrel1 is referring to, but it doesn't really matter. The info I stated above is what I believe is currently being recommended.

    If I'm wrong would someone please let me know.

    I think the FV 32/40 is what is being referred to. It has been problematic for over five years now. I have not used it since 2013-- a disastrous summer where I lost more pinkies in two weeks than in the ten years prior.
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  5. #43
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    Default Re: Magnesium

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggie's Friend View Post
    Sorry I took so long to answer, some medical issues going on. In answer to your two questions:




    1. Calcium Glutamate is a form that is low in elemental in calcium, which requires much higher amounts to be given to compensate.

    For this reason this form does not lend sufficient calcium support to the diets of juvenile or adult tree squirrels.


    2. Cow's milk is not a good match to Squirrel's milk, not enough fat for one, and for another the lactose isn't reduced to where they can digest it.

    It does not well support the nutritional needs of baby Tree Squirrels, and shouldn't be used in place of formula.

    (see file for comparison) Attachment 290355
    For cow’s milk I think the fat content is not a problem if heave whipping cream is added. People with lactose intolerance seem to do better on raw milk. The reason seems to be that probiotics are destroyed when milk is pasteurized. I have used goat’s milk with younger, heave wiping cream and probiotics with 40 strands (some honey and coconut oil also).and did not have a problem but I only have had a little experience. I have read that ultra-pasteurization destroys more nutrients than regular pasteurization and when I looked at the carton of goats milk I used I found that it was ultra-pasteurized. I think this is the only goat’s milk sold at Whole Foods where I shop but if I can find goat’ milk that is not ultra-pasteurized I would use it if I ever need to make a formula again. I think raw milk would be best if it is from a good clean dairy farm but there is risk of some bad contamination if it is not a good farm.
    I am wondering if yogurt and probiotics would fix the lactose intolerance problem. I think some squirrels have been successfully razed on cow’s milk and cream even when it has been scalded. The reason I want to know if cow’ milk can work safely if yogurt cream and probiotics are added is because it may sometimes be hard to find Goat’s Milk. I think that all the processing done to the commercial formulas and the taking apart milk and putting it back together with added nutriment creates problems and there has been a few post about some of these formulas killing young squirrels.
    I have heard that the recommended calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2 to 1. Look at the chart you sent me for squirrels milk the ratio is 36 to 45 in favor of phosphorus. I thought that perhaps the person who made this table put calcium and phosphorus in the wrong place because this ratio seems out of line with other milk if I am remembering right. This would be a 45 to 36 ratio in favor of calcium (approximately 9 to 7 ratio). But this is still way below the 2 to 1 ratio recommended. I think the ratios for Cow’s and goat’s milk is more in favor of calcium than what is shown on this cart whether you interchange calcium and phosphorus or not. I have hear that these statistic where use to make the commercial formulas but where does the 2 to 1 ratio come from, When I look take a quick look at food charts (not a careful look) it seems to me that a squirrel would never be able to reach a 2 to 1 ratio on a natural diet. I must say I did not do a careful study of this and a lots of things wild squirrels would eat where not in the tables I used but I still think 2 to 1 is not reasonable for a natural diet. In one study of men It was found that some men could obtain calcium balance on 500 milligrams a day but others that had more (probably too much) protein could not obtain a calcium balance even at 1400 milligrams a day.
    There are so many different nutrient that are involved in a natural diet that when you take foods apart and try to make a better product by adding individual components you will probably cause some kind of imbalance. I wonder what percentage of the young squirrels have some problem ether minor of major on these commercial formulas and how it compares to more natural formula when it is taken into account whether cream yogurt or probiotics were added. I do not trust the commercial formulas because they are too unnatural and even when they seem to be working the company may change the formula on you.

    I may use some of this in another post later.

  6. #44
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    Default Re: Magnesium

    I realize you want to talk about and discuss formulas here, yet my thread isn't directed to this issue.

    I only shared what I know of the basic knowledge of formula in an attempt to answer your questions,

    having raised babies only two times in the past.

    And though I understand your desire to share and discuss this topic, it's best to direct your indepth

    thoughts, theories, and questions concerning infant formulas to those who have for many years labored to raise

    infant tree squirrels, as no doubt they have had some of the same questions you have related here.

    DF

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  8. #45
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    Default Re: Magnesium

    ECole, if you want to re-invent the wheel you are quite welcome to do so, but I cannot imagine why you would distrust products like Fox Valley 20/50 and Ultra Boost which have brought thousands and thousands of baby squirrels to healthy adulthood, and release? I do know of a few rehabbers who still make concoctions of milk, tapioca pudding and God knows what else, and their babies look awful. I cannot understand why anyone would make their own when so much knowledge has gone into the formulation of quality "commercial" formulas.

    As for squirrels not eating vegetables in the wild: ask anyone with a garden. No of course they don't eat the amount of veggies that captive squirrels do, but that's because they are NOT captive. The green leafy dark veggie diet recommendations you see here are specifically given BECAUSE THE SQUIRREL IS temporarily or even permanently captive and has no access to natural foods! They cannot strip bark, chew leaves or munch on buds from trees so we must give them kale, chickory and spring mix.

    The Squirrel Board's general consensus at this time is to recommend Esbilac powder for 1 day - 4 weeks old, then transitioning to Fox Valley 20/50. Some will go 50/50 Esbilac and FV, others like myself will add Ultra Boost to the mix. Our babies are strong and beautiful. If lactose intolerance is your concern, that would indicate that squirrels given commercial formulae would have GI distress such as diarrhea. Haven't seen a case of that in years in my house, quite frankly, and the last bout of it was caused by coccidia, not formula.

    Last edited by island rehabber; 07-17-2017 at 05:44 PM. Reason: never meant to say 32/40; I don't use it at all
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    If you can't afford the vet,
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    "Better one day in the trees, than a lifetime in a cage."

    '...and the greatest of these, is Love. '

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  10. #46
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    Default Re: Magnesium

    Quote Originally Posted by island rehabber View Post
    ECole, if you want to re-invent the wheel you are quite welcome to do so, but I cannot imagine why you would distrust products like Fox Valley 20/50 and Ultra Boost which have brought thousands and thousands of baby squirrels to healthy adulthood, and release? I do know of a few rehabbers who still make concoctions of milk, tapioca pudding and God knows what else, and their babies look awful. I cannot understand why anyone would make their own when so much knowledge has gone into the formulation of quality "commercial" formulas.

    As for squirrels not eating vegetables in the wild: ask anyone with a garden. No of course they don't eat the amount of veggies that captive squirrels do, but that's because they are NOT captive. The green leafy dark veggie diet recommendations you see here are specifically given BECAUSE THE SQUIRREL IS temporarily or even permanently captive and has no access to natural foods! They cannot strip bark, chew leaves or munch on buds from trees so we must give them kale, chickory and spring mix.

    The Squirrel Board's general consensus at this time is to recommend Esbilac powder for 1 day - 4 weeks old, then transitioning to Fox Valley 20/50. Some will go 50/50 Esbilac and FV, others like myself will add Ultra Boost to the mix. Our babies are strong and beautiful. If lactose intolerance is your concern, that would indicate that squirrels given commercial formulae would have GI distress such as diarrhea. Haven't seen a case of that in years in my house, quite frankly, and the last bout of it was caused by coccidia, not formula.

    Read what I wrote more carefully. It is cow’s milk that is said by some have a problem because it has too much lactose not the commercial formulas. I would not recommend scalded milk but I am just stating that it has sometimes worked. The reason that I am interested in cow’s milk (not scalded) is because it is readily available so I wonder if the lactose intolerance in squirrels may be caused by pasteurization and can be fixed with yogurt and probiotics. I am not saying that I am sure that it can. I am looking for an answer to this.
    If you think that commercial formulas should be trusted I would also direct you to a post by Sticky: WARNING DO NOT FEED Fox Valley 32/40 to pinkies Started by Nancy in New York, 07-16-2016 09:31 AM. And another one by Sticky: THE ESBILAC ISSUE Started by island rehabber, 12-17-2009 09:40 PM •123.
    Where these formulas in these post the recommended ones at one time?
    When I look at the breakdown of mother squirrels milk and the 2 to 1 ratio that I Think is recommended it does seem right to me. I do not know for sure that the 2 to 1 is the recommendation ratio but I have been told or read that it is.
    People are saying they have lost squirrels using some of the commercial formulas and at least one said they had a painful death. It is not if a formula was made scientifically that matters, It is how it works in real life. When people say they had a problem with a formula it should be take seriously. Brand loyalty should not get in the way of the truth. You talk about people who putting anything in homemade formulas and getting bad results. If people just put anything in a formula made at home it is almost sure to be bad, but there has been formulas that can be made at home that seem to have been used successfully. If you take the attitude why reinvent the wheel just use the commercial formulas and there is something wrong with these formulas it will never be fix. It seems to me that a formula can be made at home that works as good or better than the commercial formulas and is safer. If I am right why not use a homemade formula. I am not sure I am right but there is enough inconsistence and question about commercial made formula that I think People should be questioning them and the science use to make them. The science and the logic of some scientist is not always logical. Scientist have come up with very wrong answers before.
    The only complaint that I have heard about the goat’s milk, yogurt and cream based formula is that they are not fortified. With most fortified food sold today I think the reason they are fortified is because of the way they have been processed. For example white wheat flower is fortified because the germ and the bran have been removed form it. There is also the question about our farm land being depleted by the way we farm, but I think fortification cause more imbalance than it fixes if a food is close to natural. Fortification is often not done with a good form of the nutrient. Where there are commercial interest often not the best but the cheapest is used
    Last edited by island rehabber; 07-17-2017 at 05:44 PM. Reason: never meant to say 32/40; I don't use it at all

  11. #47
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    Default Re: Magnesium

    Quote Originally Posted by ECole View Post
    If you think that commercial formulas should be trusted I would also direct you to a post by Sticky: WARNING DO NOT FEED Fox Valley 32/40 to pinkies Started by Nancy in New York, 07-16-2016 09:31 AM. And another one by Sticky: THE ESBILAC ISSUE Started by island rehabber, 12-17-2009 09:40 PM •123.
    Where these formulas in these post the recommended ones at one time?
    This is exactly what I was referring to when I said over the years there have been times when a particular formula was the "go to" formula and then may have become an "avoid" formula.... and exactly why this TSB community is so valuable.

    Currently, we do not recommend the Fox Valley 32/40 as per the sticky... we have seen a lot of pinkies do poorly and even die from the 32/40 starting 2016. The FV 32/40 seems to sit in their gut and never gets digested.

    And there was a time many years ago (before my time) when Esbilac was causing similar problems and deaths, so that was avoided for quite a while until the manufacturer changed the formulation.

    Certainly we do not recommend these formulas out of any sense of "brand loyalty", we are loyal only to the outcomes.

    And as you said, it is not always the science necessarily. As far as I know the formulation of the 32/40 has not changed, but the outcomes have changed so in response to bad outcomes we have changed our recommendation for pinkies to Esbilac. Could be something as simple as they switched a supplier of one or more of the formula components.


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