Calcium and MBD.

[Katherine]

While I am not a rehabber, I have learned much this past week about MBD, a terrible disease and the use of calcium as treatment. If anyone has read my thread "Dwarf Hamster Needs Help," in non-life -threatening, you will know that it is about a hamster, I've named Pip. He was brought to me 1 week ago,seriously ill from both MBD and cage paralysis. He was treated by 1 vet and yesterday, I changed to another.
I can honestly say that it is my belief that our 4skwerlz has helped to save little Pip's life. There was a question of how much calcium should be given to Pip. (4s, when you are able, it would help if you could transfer some of the relevant posts from that thread to this one, since I don't know how). She prepared a schedule for Pip to follow. Yesterday, I was put in touch with a new vet who deals with many hamsters..When I told him of this schedule, he in fact increased Pip's calcium. He said that due to his size and the strong possibility of a relapse, more calcium needs to be given over the next 9 weeks. He said that too much calcium cannot hurt Pip, but too little will kill him. I don't have to explain what an impact that statement had on me. My Pip is a loving little hamster who has been through too much in his short 3 months on this earth. The vet's statement about calcium and MBD not only affects treatment of Pip, but for me, all animals.
I felt this to be an important learning experience for me and I wanted to share this with everyone.
All comments on the subject are welcome.

[Jackie in Tampa]

...and yes Leigh is a wonderful human to research all that she has to help us with this nutritional issue!
...I have seen my share of calcium deficient sqs...we all have helplessly watched sqs die painful deaths...all for lacking calcium!
This is THE REASON, I stress 'not to wean your sq, but to try try try to keep them on formula as long as they will take it!
This is what a block/HHB is all about!
All mammels must have calcium!!!!!

The war against MBD will always be tough until the word gets out...
calcium saves lives!
Sending the best to Pip!
thanks for doing all you do K!

[island rehabber]

Katherine, the more we can learn about MBD, and the more we can testify to the danger of it and how to prevent it, the closer we'll come to our goal of never having to see another creature suffer with it again.

[Katherine]

...and yes Leigh is a wonderful human to research all that she has to help us with this nutritional issue!
...I have seen my share of calcium deficient sqs...we all have helplessly watched sqs die painful deaths...all for lacking calcium!
This is THE REASON, I stress 'not to wean your sq, but to try try try to keep them on formula as long as they will take it!
This is what a block/HHB is all about!
All mammels must have calcium!!!!!

The war against MBD will always be tough until the word gets out...
calcium saves lives!
Sending the best to Pip!
thanks for doing all you do K!

Hi Jackie. You are so right. Calcium saves lives and my little Pip is an example. He is in so much pain from MBD & cage paralysis. To see first hand, the effects of MBD, is an eye-opener which will make me study MBD as much as possible. If he were not getting high doses of calcium, he would be dead.
To 4s...

[Katherine]

Katherine, the more we can learn about MBD, and the more we can testify to the danger of it and how to prevent it, the closer we'll come to our goal of never having to see another creature suffer with it again.

IR. This has become a very personal issue for me. I have watched Pip, for 1 week now. He clearly developed it from poor diet by the miserable woman who had him. To hear the vet say:"too much calcium won't hurt him, too little will kill him." What is there to think about? As you say, the more we learn about MBD, hopefully, one day we will stop seeing animals die from it.
BTW. I also had a turtle die from MBD.
Calcium is unquestionably part of the solution.

[jfischer]

I have the highest respect for 4S knowledge on nutrition for squirrels. I really pay attention to what she posts, I know that my squirrel is healthy today because of her. I also have learned so much on TBS and am so thankfkul for all of the members here. They are so caring and helpful. I have also learned a lot from reading your threads, Katherine.

[Katherine]

I have the highest respect for 4S knowledge on nutrition for squirrels. I really pay attention to what she posts, I know that my squirrel is healthy today because of her. I also have learned so much on TBS and am so thankfkul for all of the members here. They are so caring and helpful. I have also learned a lot from reading your threads, Katherine.

Thank you, so much. I, too, am learning all the time. For all of us, the health of our babies means the world to us. Regards to you and your little ones.

[4skwerlz]

Whoa, thanks guys, but the MBD Treatment was all of us putting our heads together, and sometimes banging them together too.

For me, it was just GREAT to hear Katherine's vet, who has experience with MBD in rodents (hurray), validate our general principle of pushing calcium fairly aggressively in the early days/weeks. I know some folks have had concerns about this, and boy, so do I. Of course this is just one vet, but at least he has actual knowledge and experience with MBD in rodents.

I've asked Katherine to pick his brain for more info on MBD in hamsters/rodents.

What is the minimum requirement of calcium for hamsters and how weight-dependent is it? i.e., how much difference between a large teddy bear hammie and a tiny dwarf hammie.

Also:

How long does it take for actual bone rebuilding to begin? (observable on x-rays)

How long before they have rebuilt enough bone that they can start maintaining their own blood calcium levels?

How long before they're completely cured? CAN they be completely cured or will they always be prone to relapse?

etc. etc.

[Katherine]

Whoa, thanks guys, but the MBD Treatment was all of us putting our heads together, and sometimes banging them together too.

For me, it was just GREAT to hear Katherine's vet, who has experience with MBD in rodents (hurray), validate our general principle of pushing calcium fairly aggressively in the early days/weeks. I know some folks have had concerns about this, and boy, so do I. Of course this is just one vet, but at least he has actual knowledge and experience with MBD in rodents.

I've asked Katherine to pick his brain for more info on MBD in hamsters/rodents.

What is the minimum requirement of calcium for hamsters and how weight-dependent is it? i.e., how much difference between a large teddy bear hammie and a tiny dwarf hammie.

Also:

How long does it take for actual bone rebuilding to begin? (observable on x-rays)

How long before they have rebuilt enough bone that they can start maintaining their own blood calcium levels?

How long before they're completely cured? CAN they be completely cured or will they always be prone to relapse?

etc. etc.

Hi 4S. I will certainly ask the vet as many questions as I can. Right now, there is no question about, what he called "bombarding" Pip with heavy calcium in the beginning of his MBD. Pip was & is seriously ill & if not given heavy doses, this horrible disease will take over his body & become irreversible and certainly fatal. Pip's treatment of 125mg daily for the 1st 2wks, then 100mg.daily for the 3rd, 75/daily for wks 4-5, 50/daily for wks 6-7 & 25mg for wks 8-9 is aggressive in & of itself. If, at any time, Pip seems to be relapsing, that schedule is, of course, subject to change. There will also be a maintenance schedule, after that.
Right now, I am praying that my little sweetie makes it. As a layperson, who is learning by taking care of him & hearing advice, there is NO question, that w/o calcium in these amounts, he would already be dead.