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Thread: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

  1. #81
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Okay, 4s, here's what I found about your concern about interactions with other cartenoids. The source emphasizes differences between Beta carotene derived from dietary sources (food) and Beta Carotene derived from supplements (which are added to blocks). Even in pregnant women it says there is no need to limit the intake of Beta carotene from dietary sources. I've also included a link to the source if anyone wishes to read the entire thing. I hope you will cite yours also.

    Toxicity
    Beta-Carotene
    Although beta-carotene can be converted to vitamin A, the conversion of beta-carotene to vitamin A decreases when body stores of vitamin A are high. This may explain why high doses of beta-carotene have never been found to cause vitamin A toxicity (103). High doses of beta-carotene (up to 180 mg/day) have been used to treat erythropoietic protoporphyria, a photosensitivity disorder, without toxic side effects (6).

    Carotenodermia: High doses of beta-carotene supplements (30 mg/day or more) and the consumption of large amounts of carotene-rich foods have resulted in a yellow discoloration of the skin known as carotenodermia. Carotenodermia is not associated with any underlying health problems and resolves when beta-carotene supplements are discontinued or dietary carotene intake is reduced.

    Beta-Carotene
    Because it is has vitamin A activity, beta-carotene may be used to provide all or part of the vitamin A in multivitamin supplements. The vitamin A activity of beta-carotene from supplements is much higher than that of beta-carotene from foods. It takes only 2 mcg (0.002 mg) of beta-carotene from supplements to provide 1 mcg of retinol (preformed vitamin A). The beta-carotene content of supplements is often listed in international units (IU) rather than mcg; 3,000 mcg (3 mg) of beta-carotene provides 5,000 IU of vitamin A. Most commercial supplements contain 5,000-25,000 IU of beta-carotene (100).

    Other Carotenoids


    Unlike vitamin A, high doses of beta-carotene taken by pregnant women have not been associated with increased risk of birth defects (6). However, the safety of high-dose beta-carotene supplements in pregnancy and lactation has not been well-studied. Although there is no reason to limit dietary beta-carotene intake, pregnant and breast-feeding women should avoid consuming more than 3 mg/day (5,000 IU/day) of beta-carotene from supplements unless they prescribed under medical supervision (102, 103)

    The safety of carotenoid supplements other than beta-carotene in pregnancy and lactation has not been established, so pregnant and breastfeeding women should obtain carotenoids from foods rather than supplements. There is no reason to limit the consumption of carotenoid-rich fruits and vegetables during pregnancy (102, 105).

    Interactions Among Carotenoids

    The results of metabolic studies suggest that high doses [from the word "doses" I infer this means of supplements] of beta-carotene compete with lutein and lycopene for absorption when consumed at the same time (119-121). However, the consumption of high-dose beta-carotene supplements did not adversely affect serum carotenoid concentrations in long-term clinical trials (122-125).

    http://www.nutritional-supplements-h...-toxicity.html

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Thanks for the snippets. None of that addresses my concerns in post #64. (And you have to be careful using human dietary guidelines for squirrels because of the difference in body size. For a grey squirrel to eat 6 tbsp per week of sweet potato would be like a 150-lb human eating 33 pounds of sweet potatoes per week; for a flyer, 175 lbs.)

    Your link took me to a site selling supplements and I didn't see the last few paragraphs there.

    I don't see the point, since you do not seem to ever read them, but here is the finding of most concern. If you want the other references I can look them up later.

    "High intakes of either retinyl palmitate (42 µmol/kg diet) or beta-carotene (89 µmol/kg diet) depressed plasma and liver concentrations of a-tocopherol to about one-half the normal concentrations (Blakely et al., 1990). It seems probable that high concentrations of vitamin A in the diet interfere with the absorption of vitamin E. " [This is in rats; not humans.]

    Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals, Fourth Revised Edition, 1995, Subcommittee on Laboratory Animal Nutrition, Board on Agriculture, National Research Council, National Academy Press: Washington, D.C. 1995 (p. 42)

    Blakely, S. R., E. Grundel, M. Y. Jenkins, and G. V. Mitchell. 1990. Alterations in beta-carotene and vitamin E status in rats fed beta-carotene and excess vitamin A. Nutr. Res. 10:1035–1044.
    Henry's Healthy Pets
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    The animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations… ~Henry Beston, The Outermost House, 1928

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    I am very thankful to 4S and this board for all of the extensive research on nutrition for all of our beloved fuzzers everywhere. I have been using an older recipe of 4S's blocks for over a year now with great success. I do not add vitamin A or cod liver oil to my blocks because I feel that they do get enough from the sweet potato, squash and greens that I feed regularly. I thank 4S for discussing this with me many months ago. I do try to follow the healthy diet posted but sometimes with some squirrels it just isn't possible. I do not feed sunflower seeds but admit to feeding fresh corn once a week sometimes more depending on the squirrel. I feed a variety of greens daily including kale and sometimes spinach constantly changing to entice them to eat them. I also am a big yogurt fan and sometimes will syringe it to my non-releases and my flyer gets a dab every night. There is not a concrete perfect diet for squirrels that I am aware of but I truely believe that the information on this board is the best available at this time. I offer all of my squirrels non- releases and rehab squirrels the same diet consisting of squirrel blocks, rodent blocks, a variety of veggies, sweet potato, or blackberries, rosehips, pine cones, crapemyrtle twigs, avacado, limited corn, mealworms etc.. At night I feed 2 acorns, a hazelnut and maybe a hickory nut or piece of shelled pecan. I let them choose what they need and want for the day, and if they ate decent then they get their nuts at bedtime. I also have mineral blocks and calcium blocks in all cages.
    Again, my sincere thanks to 4S and to this board for all of your time and research making it so easy for people needing information to be able to get good accurate information, resulting in saving more and more everyday of all of our favorite little precious creatures!!!
    Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by jacey
    I am very thankful to 4S and this board for all of the extensive research on nutrition for all of our beloved fuzzers everywhere. I have been using an older recipe of 4S's blocks for over a year now with great success. I do not add vitamin A or cod liver oil to my blocks because I feel that they do get enough from the sweet potato, squash and greens that I feed regularly. I thank 4S for discussing this with me many months ago. I do try to follow the healthy diet posted but sometimes with some squirrels it just isn't possible. I do not feed sunflower seeds but admit to feeding fresh corn once a week sometimes more depending on the squirrel. I feed a variety of greens daily including kale and sometimes spinach constantly changing to entice them to eat them. I also am a big yogurt fan and sometimes will syringe it to my non-releases and my flyer gets a dab every night. There is not a concrete perfect diet for squirrels that I am aware of but I truely believe that the information on this board is the best available at this time. I offer all of my squirrels non- releases and rehab squirrels the same diet consisting of squirrel blocks, rodent blocks, a variety of veggies, sweet potato, or blackberries, rosehips, pine cones, crapemyrtle twigs, avacado, limited corn, mealworms etc.. At night I feed 2 acorns, a hazelnut and maybe a hickory nut or piece of shelled pecan. I let them choose what they need and want for the day, and if they ate decent then they get their nuts at bedtime. I also have mineral blocks and calcium blocks in all cages.
    Again, my sincere thanks to 4S and to this board for all of your time and research making it so easy for people needing information to be able to get good accurate information, resulting in saving more and more everyday of all of our favorite little precious creatures!!!
    You're so very welcome. And thanks to everyone else who posted kind words. If we've improved the diet of our squirrels even a little bit, that's what makes it all worthwhile.
    Henry's Healthy Pets
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    The animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations… ~Henry Beston, The Outermost House, 1928

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Rather than continuing to debate the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism (yawn), how about this:

    What I'm hearing from everyone is that you all feed your squirrels sweet potato pretty regularly, in moderation. It sounds like "moderation" is around three times per week. Is that right? So how about if we change the wording to something like "these foods should be fed in moderation, no more than 3 times per week."

    If that sounds good to most of you, then I'll make the changes and then submit the revised version for comments.

    Everyone cool with that?
    Henry's Healthy Pets
    Henry's Healthy Blocks, Fox Valley Formula, Fleecies Cage Gear and more

    The animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations… ~Henry Beston, The Outermost House, 1928

  6. #86
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    Thanks for the snippets. None of that addresses my concerns in post #64. (And you have to be careful using human dietary guidelines for squirrels because of the difference in body size. For a grey squirrel to eat 6 tbsp per week of sweet potato would be like a 150-lb human eating 33 pounds of sweet potatoes per week; for a flyer, 175 lbs.)

    First, your use of six tablespoons seems rather arbitrary. Why not four? eight? twelve? I fed my squirrels sweet potato this morning and weighed two random "chunks." The weight was 6 grams, or .21 ounces. Going on weight, not volume, if I fed this amount three times a week, that would equal .63 ounces. If there are two tablespoons per ounce, that means each tablespoon would weigh .5 ounces, so mine would eat a a little over 1/6 of the amount you used as reference. I think that 150 human could handle 5.5 pounds of sweet potato a week--of course that human might get sick of the thought of them rather than from them.

    It's true this article is about Beta carotene in humans, but it stands to reason chemical reactions are chemical reactions. Regardless, you/we are basing our diets for our squirrels on laboratory experiments on rats. There can be vast differences there also (between species). Also, the Nutrient Requirements for Laboratory Animals that you cite, and I think you based your formulation for HHBs on, and the rest of the healthy diet on, bases its findings for rats on 15 grams per rat per day for maintenance, and while weights of species vary, the average rat seems to be about the weight of a gray squirrel. At 15 grams per day, the rat is eating about 1/4 of its body weight per week, not its body weight per week as we assume for squirrels. I assume your calculations took this into consideration. Otherwise, we might already be giving squirrels four times of every nutrient that they need. (assuming they actually DO eat their body weight a week).

    Anyway, I thought this specifically addressed your concern about the interaction, particularly with lycopene, of Beta carotene with other cartenoinds:

    The results of metabolic studies suggest that high doses [from the word "doses" I infer this means of supplements] of beta-carotene compete with lutein and lycopene for absorption when consumed at the same time (119-121). However, the consumption of high-dose beta-carotene supplements did not adversely affect serum carotenoid concentrations in long-term clinical trials (122-125).

    Your link took me to a site selling supplements and I didn't see the last few paragraphs there.

    I apologize. I pasted the wrong link. The information came from Oregan State University's Linus Pauling Institute which specializes in micronutrient research.

    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...s/carotenoids/


    I don't see the point, since you do not seem to ever read them, but here is the finding of most concern. If you want the other references I can look them up later.

    It's difficult to maintain a civilized discussion with you if you insist on being so insulting. Of course, if I react I risk attack from higher powers, so I'll just let you know I'm trying.

    "High intakes of either retinyl palmitate (42 µmol/kg diet) or beta-carotene (89 µmol/kg diet) depressed plasma and liver concentrations of a-tocopherol to about one-half the normal concentrations (Blakely et al., 1990). It seems probable that high concentrations of vitamin A in the diet interfere with the absorption of vitamin E. " [This is in rats; not humans.]

    Again this is in humans, so you may discredit if you will, but it seems the idea that Beta carotene interferes with vitamin E is is quite controversial:

    "Not all researchers agree that beta-carotene diminishes vitamin E supplies. "In most of the large-scale clinical trials involving beta-carotene supplements there has not been a significant effect on plasma vitamin E," argues Robert S. Parker of Cornell University."

    Furthermore, the studies on rats used Beta carotene supplements, and as with its reactions with other substances, there might be great differences between how naturally occurring Beta carotene found in food and that in supplements might affect any other nutrient.

    And finally, an irony is that some of the foods black-listed because you think they might interfere with vitamin E are also some of the ones ones highest in vitamin E:

    "The richest source of vitamin E is wheat germ.
    Other foods that contain a significant amount of vitamin E include:
    • Liver
    • Eggs
    • Nuts (almonds, hazelnuts, and walnuts)
    Sunflower seeds
    • Corn-oil margarine
    • Mayonnaise
    • Cold-pressed vegetable oils, including olive, corn, safflower,
    soybean, cottonseed, and canola
    Dark green leafy vegetables like spinach and kale• Greens (beet, collard, mustard, turnip) sweet potatoes• Avocado
    • Asparagus
    • Yams

    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vitamin-e-000341.htm
    .

    with sweet potato being one of the highest, if the the highest, vegetable sources:

    http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5554.html


    Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals, Fourth Revised Edition, 1995, Subcommittee on Laboratory Animal Nutrition, Board on Agriculture, National Research Council, National Academy Press: Washington, D.C. 1995 (p. 42)

    Blakely, S. R., E. Grundel, M. Y. Jenkins, and G. V. Mitchell. 1990. Alterations in beta-carotene and vitamin E status in rats fed beta-carotene and excess vitamin A. Nutr. Res. 10:1035–1044.

    These are, of course, from the same source, the NRLA, but thank your for taking the time to type them both out.
    PBJ

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Rather than continuing to debate the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism (yawn), how about this:

    What I'm hearing from everyone is that you all feed your squirrels sweet potato pretty regularly, in moderation. It sounds like "moderation" is around three times per week. Is that right? So how about if we change the wording to something like "these foods should be fed in moderation, no more than 3 times per week."

    If that sounds good to most of you, then I'll make the changes and then submit the revised version for comments.

    Everyone cool with that?
    Henry's Healthy Pets
    Henry's Healthy Blocks, Fox Valley Formula, Fleecies Cage Gear and more

    The animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations… ~Henry Beston, The Outermost House, 1928

  8. #88
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    Rather than continuing to debate the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism (yawn), how about this:

    What I'm hearing from everyone is that you all feed your squirrels sweet potato pretty regularly, in moderation. It sounds like "moderation" is around three times per week. Is that right? So how about if we change the wording to something like "these foods should be fed in moderation, no more than 3 times per week."

    If that sounds good to most of you, then I'll make the changes and then submit the revised version for comments.

    Everyone cool with that?
    Cool!

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    In moderation with, an explanation of what can be considered moderation, sounds reasonable to me.

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Re: the question about the copyright...

    The underlying purpose of TSB is to provide a safe, healthy environment for Squirrels (and other related animals) and also to those who deal with Squirrels. With that in mind, the administration states the following:

    1. TSB has no vested interest in the copyright of the Healthy Diet. No parties were contracted to create it, and as publicly posted information is available to anyone to use and modify as they choose. It is in fact posted as a living document, subject to change and modification as research progresses.

    2. The copyrighted product Henry's Healthy Blocks is a result of that same diet mentioned above, and the copyright as such applies to anyone making their own Blocks for profit. Members doing so are requested to consult with 4Skwerlz.

    3. TSB encourages the initiative and effort of all members in developing any product expressly created for improving the health and environment of squirrels. In this instance, Henry's Healthy Blocks have been successfully tried and proven by 4Skwerlz, with several concurring testimonials as posted here at TSB.

    4. TSB will consider any documented evidence that the Healthy Diet and/or Henry's Healthy Blocks has lead to the death of any animal consuming same. Until then, no Disclaimers or Warnings will be posted.
    Administration

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    Rather than continuing to debate the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism (yawn), how about this:

    What I'm hearing from everyone is that you all feed your squirrels sweet potato pretty regularly, in moderation. It sounds like "moderation" is around three times per week. Is that right? So how about if we change the wording to something like "these foods should be fed in moderation, no more than 3 times per week."

    If that sounds good to most of you, then I'll make the changes and then submit the revised version for comments.

    Everyone cool with that?

    I'm SO sorry it took me so long to come back in this thread. My daughter was admitted to the hospital for pneumonia last Sunday night/Monday morning right after you posted this, so all last week I was caught up with that.

    This sounds great to me as well. I'd love to see this change to the healthy diet thread.
    + =

    "Talking trees. What do trees have to talk about, hmm... except the consistency of squirrel droppings?"
    -Gimli, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers

  12. #92
    Jackie in Tampa is offline Left TSB to start her own Board
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    wow...this is alot of info...
    and all very interesting...

    I being a non study'er..[hate research]...love to read others research...

    Just wanted to say that sqs and peeps ARE very different in requirements and thank goodness...I hate acorns...omgosh they're gross!
    and worms..yuck yuck!

    When you are studyinmg animals...human nutrition can go only so far...you must use research that pertains to what you are feeding...and their actual intake and requirements...
    the last time someone brought in a human nutritionist to work on sqs diet... we ended up with scalded milk...
    yes Virginia, Clarissa used a human nutritionist to design her recipes!

    I hate using rat nutrition, but it is the closest thing we have to go on...in the RESEARCHED department anyways!
    I think anything in moderation is worth trying...

    Once Sarah [one of TSBs healther sqs] vomiteed eating eggplant, it was time to reconsider it...no more NIGHTSHADE in our bowls
    Same with raw chestnuts...
    We ARE writing THE SQ BOOK!

    I am very limited to study...but 'my hands on' has taught me alot!

  13. #93
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Yeah, Jackie--everything's a gray area, really. So many differences exist between rats and squirrels, we're going on as much hope as science, I think. It's just a little ironic, however, that many things about our nutritional needs (humans) and also medicines and diseases have been discovered through experimentation with/on rats.

  14. #94
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie in Tampa
    :the last time someone brought in a human nutritionist to work on sqs diet... we ended up with scalded milk...
    yes Virginia, Clarissa used a human nutritionist to design her recipes!
    Just out of curiosity, I tried to find where Clarissa actually consulted a nutritionist. All I can find is that she referred to some books by Adelle Davis (a pioneer in nutrition), not that she actually consulted her. And from what I can tell, she used this information to develop her nutballs, not the scalded milk idea. Anyway, from what I can tell, I think most are agreeable to the changes in the Healthy Diet.

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    The changes seem agreeable to me. I'm looking forward to seeing the revisions.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    As I mentioned, I was already in the middle of a major overhaul of the Diet and will be submitting other parts for suggestions from you guys.
    Henry's Healthy Pets
    Henry's Healthy Blocks, Fox Valley Formula, Fleecies Cage Gear and more

    The animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations… ~Henry Beston, The Outermost House, 1928

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