Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

[4skwerlz]

Honestly, I would not assume that. It says "©2009 Henry's Healthy Blocks," not "©2009 The Squirrel Board." I thought you were laying claim to it, since the HHB company is yours.

Well, I am technically the author. I don't know what you mean in terms of "laying claim" to it.

[PBluejay2]

I think that a vague statement that everything should be fed in moderation isn't that helpful to the average person. "Moderation" means different things to different people. The thing I've been asked time and time again is "just tell what to feed and how much." Remember, we're dealing with the general public and trying to keep the diet as foolproof as possible.

Anyhow, it appears that carotenodermia occurs in humans at around 10 times the recommended daily amount. If our current diet is already at 7X the RDA, then is this cause for any concern?

And I didn't really want to get into all this, but there's more to nutrition than whether a nutrient is toxic or not. Many nutrients interact with one another; some "work together"; others "compete" or "block" other nutrients. That's a major reason why a healthy diet is a balanced diet. So I do have some concerns about any one nutrient being so oversupplied in the diet. Perhaps I'm overcautious about this.

How about, "Each food should be fed in moderation, meaning no more than a few times a week and along with a variety of others. No one food should be considered a "staple" food to be fed daily."

[Ardilla]

A balanced diet means a "balance of nutrients"; not "equal amounts of every food." A cup of meat, a cup of veggies, a cup of fat, and a cup of sugar wouldn't be a balanced diet. Dietary recommendations must also take into account the eating habits/tastes of the audience. This is why humans are always "encouraged to eat more" veggies and fiber and "encouraged to limit" fats and sweets. "Eat 5 servings of this, and only 1 serving of that" and so on. Foods that are particularly high in one nutrient--whether it be sugar or fat or a certain vitamin--often need to be limited.

I understand that. My dad has diabetes (as do several other relatives) and he has to maintain a certain balance in his diet. It's about proportions, not equal amount of everything.

However, that doesn't change the fact that certain foods high in beta-carotene have been red-flagged in the Healthy Diet Chart and limited when they really don't need to be.

[PBluejay2]

Well, I am technically the author. I don't know what you mean in terms of "laying claim" to it.

If, as you said, this is the result of a team effort, then you are not the sole author of the content.

[Ardilla]

Well, I am technically the author. I don't know what you mean in terms of "laying claim" to it.

But you said it was devised by board collaboration. In that case, you are not the only author, TSB is. If you are copyrighting it under your company name you are, in fact, laying legal claim on it. That's what copyright is.

[4skwerlz]

How about, "Each food should be fed in moderation, meaning no more than a few times a week and along with a variety of others. No one food should be considered a "staple" food to be fed daily."

I think this is a good statement and should be added. However, I don't think it takes the place of suggested quantities whenever possible or appropriate.

[PBluejay2]

I think this is a good statement and should be added. However, I don't think it takes the place of suggested quantities whenever possible or appropriate.

Other than rodent blocks, were there suggested quantities?

[4skwerlz]

If, as you said, this is the result of a team effort, then you are not the sole author of the content.

Anyhoo, if you feel this is an important issue I suggest a separate thread or that you take it up with Admin so we can stay on topic here.

[4skwerlz]

I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

(trying to address your points one by one...)

If a person is following the Healthy Diet, including limited quantities of certain foods like seeds and nuts, they do not need to worry about calcium/phosphorus ratios. All of the foods have been carefully prescreened as to their ratios and/or limited in quantity. Therefore, the differences between one veggie and another calc/phos-wise is insignificant, by which I mean "incapable of affecting the overall calc/phos ratio of the diet in a negative way."

As for pumpkin seeds, that is one food that I don't agree with having on the list. I brought up the issue of eliminating pumpkin seeds from the Diet, it was discussed, everyone shrieked like boiled owls , and so on the Diet they stayed, in limited quantities of course.

[4skwerlz]

Other than rodent blocks, were there suggested quantities?

Not nearly enough. Like I said, I'm constantly asked to suggest quantities for everything. I'd really like to figure out some kind of rubric or language to address that. Former versions of the Diet did have suggested quantities but I wasn't happy with the format. The pyramid does suggest overall quantities for each "food group," but it seemed most important to have quantities where there was a required minimum (like the blocks) or an area where we need to limit intake, like nuts and maybe avocado, as an example.

I'm currently working on a new version of the Diet and would like to address that if I can.

[PBluejay2]

(trying to address your points one by one...)

If a person is following the Healthy Diet, including limited quantities of certain foods like seeds and nuts, they do not need to worry about calcium/phosphorus ratios. All of the foods have been carefully prescreened as to their ratios and/or limited in quantity. Therefore, the differences between one veggie and another calc/phos-wise is insignificant, by which I mean "incapable of affecting the overall calc/phos ratio of the diet in a negative way."

I whole-heartedly disagree with this one, 4s. Then why don't we include corn in the list and do away with the caution to avoid sunflower seeds and pine nuts?

[4skwerlz]

I whole-heartedly disagree with this one, 4s. Then why don't we include corn in the list and do away with the caution to avoid sunflower seeds and pine nuts?

That's what "prescreened" means.

[PBluejay2]

That's what "prescreened" means.

I guess I don't know what that means, then. Explain?

[4skwerlz]

I guess I don't know what that means, then. Explain?

All of the foods have been carefully prescreened as to their ratios and/or limited in quantity. Therefore, the differences between one veggie and another calc/phos-wise is insignificant, by which I mean "incapable of affecting the overall calc/phos ratio of the diet in a negative way."

The goal of the Diet was to present the "best of the best"; an "ideal diet" or as close as possible. So every food there was looked at carefully....

1. What does it contribute nutritionally to the overall diet? vitamins? minerals? fiber? good for the teeth? etc.

2. Will squirrels EAT it? (healthy foods aren't much use otherwise)

3. Can people find it at the grocery store/will they be comfortable buying it? For example, chayote is a fantastic veggie nutrition-wise, but since folks aren't familiar with it, few buy it for their squirrels. It's THERE but you could argue it's just taking up space.

4. Do squirrels love it so much that they might eat TOO MUCH of it? In that case, even a healthy food might need a limit.

5. Though generally healthy, is there some other aspect of the food that suggests a limit? High in starch, sugar, or fat?

6. Is the calc/phos ratio within range so that it will not create an imbalance? Some foods, like nuts, may be so important to the diet that they need to be included anyhow, with limits. I did however, screen out the worst nuts.

7. I checked the glycemic load of almost every fruit you can think of and selected the ones with the lowest GLs (I believe my upper limit was 5 or 6, but I'd have to check.)

This is not exhaustive or in any particular order, but you get the gist I think.

[PBluejay2]

The goal of the Diet was to present the "best of the best"; an "ideal diet" or as close as possible. So every food there was looked at carefully....

1. What does it contribute nutritionally to the overall diet? vitamins? minerals? fiber? good for the teeth? etc.

2. Will squirrels EAT it? (healthy foods aren't much use otherwise)

3. Can people find it at the grocery store/will they be comfortable buying it? For example, chayote is a fantastic veggie nutrition-wise, but since folks aren't familiar with it, few buy it for their squirrels. It's THERE but you could argue it's just taking up space.

4. Do squirrels love it so much that they might eat TOO MUCH of it? In that case, even a healthy food might need a limit.

5. Though generally healthy, is there some other aspect of the food that suggests a limit? High in starch, sugar, or fat?

6. Is the calc/phos ratio within range so that it will not create an imbalance? Some foods, like nuts, may be so important to the diet that they need to be included anyhow, with limits. I did however, screen out the worst nuts.

7. I checked the glycemic load of almost every fruit you can think of and selected the ones with the lowest GLs (I believe my upper limit was 5 or 6, but I'd have to check.)

This is not exhaustive or in any particular order, but you get the gist I think.

Well, for a later discussion you'll have to fill me in on why pine nuts and sunflower seeds were nixed (I know your argument about corn) and others, such as pumpkin seeds. weren't.

[4skwerlz]

Well, for a later discussion you'll have to fill me in on why pine nuts and sunflower seeds were nixed (I know your argument about corn) and others, such as pumpkin seeds. weren't.

It's as I said: The GROUP didn't agree to pumpkin seeds being nixed.

[PBluejay2]

It's as I said: The GROUP didn't agree to pumpkin seeds being nixed.

But you and I went around and around about them about a year or so ago, remember? You couldn't decide because of the shell/husk? I suppose you decided to keep them in then? Doesn't matter.

About the copyright. . . .

And is the issue settled regarding what to do with the high Beta carotine veggies. For someone who's not "the decider," it seems everything depends on your decision.

[4skwerlz]

But you and I went around and around about them about a year or so ago, remember? You couldn't decide because of the shell/husk? I suppose you decided to keep them in then? Doesn't matter.

About the copyright. . . .

And is the issue settled regarding what to do with the high Beta carotine veggies. For someone who's not "the decider," it seems everything depends on your decision.

Re: the pumpkin seeds, it wasn't an issue of whether I could "decide"; as you'll recall, I was trying to get a definitive answer on the calc/phos ratio, as the conflicting info didn't make sense to me. Since that was never resolved, I presented the issue to the group (this was probably before you were involved in that level of discussion, if you know what I mean), including the confusing calc/phos ratio. I argued for eliminating them, but as I said, the group as a whole (especially the flyer folks) felt strongly they should stay in. Let me spell it out, once more: I didn't decide, the group decided. In fact, they went against my recommendation.

As for the vitamin A, I don't think you and I are exactly a quorum, so unfortunately, it looks like we'll have to await more input from others.

[PBluejay2]

You heard her, folks--put down the popcorn!

[PBluejay2]

And the copyright?