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Thread: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    I personally have no problem with increasing the recommended amounts for some of these veggies (I assume you mean all of the asterisked ones). The current limit was a strict one, to be on the safe side, pending more research.

    At current recommended levels, assuming that blocks are eaten as well, but not counting the vitamin a levels in the non-asterisked foods, except for romaine, since that seems to be a staple, the monthly intake of beta-carotene would be approximately

    15 mg, or around 700% of the recommended amount

    Should this be doubled? Or more? I do think we need to make sure to keep the amount under the level at which the beta-carotene turns the fat orange, so we don't end up with orange squirrels! I'll see if I can find that....
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Ok... thought about it and decided to add this.

    I just went and looked at the "Healthy Diet".

    Honestly... Scooby should be dead by now. This might cause a huge issue here and I don't mean to I really don't.

    That diet is daunting to me. It's a lot to follow. If feeding horses was that complicated I'd have put a gun to my head a long time ago.

    I guess I'm just kinda Forest Gump-ing my way through this squirrel thing. I feed Scooby ONCE a day. She gets a plate full of her vegies, fruits and her rodent block/primate chow (yes I can hear the collective gasps now). Until recently she didn't even get the rodent block!! Turns out she likes the Harlan Teklad so she's getting it now.

    She gets two of those and two primate chow blocks quartered, then a variety of fruits, vegies, leafy greens a bit of mushroom, some sesame seeds on her avocado. There's even sweet potato and carrot (way more than a tablespoon a month for sure).

    She is in amazing good health. Active, happy, no neurotic behavior. Great coat (you all have seen the photos).

    Here's what I do though. I'm a mean mean mommy. She gets her plate of food in the am (or whenever sometimes later) and that's IT. She gets nothing until the next day. AND ... if she has left over block on the plate it stays until she eats that. NO OTHER FOOD... *gasp at the cruelty go ahead*. I did this with my child too. Eat what's good or you don't get the fun stuff. Now she can eat the fun stuff first but she has to eat the good stuff before more fun stuff is added. Ohh and ONE or two nuts in a day. Max. In fact until recently she wasn't even getting them every day. Thinking about it now, I may have to change the thread to Scoobys Nut of the week. I'm worried that I changed that and it could all go wrong!!

    I'm feeding a variety, well balanced, and in realistic amounts (I don't pile the plate a mile high). Everyone wants to know why she's not obese, why her coat shines, why she seems so healthy. I figure that's why.

    I'm very reluctant to fix what ain't broke here.

    Edited to add... I wrote this post to immediately follow my other post and then walked outside to do chores. It hadn't posted yet. This isn't a response to you 4Skwerlz it's just an addition to my last post. If that makes sense.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobysnack
    Ok... thought about it and decided to add this.

    I just went and looked at the "Healthy Diet".

    Honestly... Scooby should be dead by now. This might cause a huge issue here and I don't mean to I really don't.

    That diet is daunting to me. It's a lot to follow. If feeding horses was that complicated I'd have put a gun to my head a long time ago.

    I guess I'm just kinda Forest Gump-ing my way through this squirrel thing. I feed Scooby ONCE a day. She gets a plate full of her vegies, fruits and her rodent block/primate chow (yes I can hear the collective gasps now). Until recently she didn't even get the rodent block!! Turns out she likes the Harlan Teklad so she's getting it now.

    She gets two of those and two primate chow blocks quartered, then a variety of fruits, vegies, leafy greens a bit of mushroom, some sesame seeds on her avocado. There's even sweet potato and carrot (way more than a tablespoon a month for sure).

    She is in amazing good health. Active, happy, no neurotic behavior. Great coat (you all have seen the photos).

    Here's what I do though. I'm a mean mean mommy. She gets her plate of food in the am (or whenever sometimes later) and that's IT. She gets nothing until the next day. AND ... if she has left over block on the plate it stays until she eats that. NO OTHER FOOD... *gasp at the cruelty go ahead*. I did this with my child too. Eat what's good or you don't get the fun stuff. Now she can eat the fun stuff first but she has to eat the good stuff before more fun stuff is added. Ohh and ONE or two nuts in a day. Max. In fact until recently she wasn't even getting them every day. Thinking about it now, I may have to change the thread to Scoobys Nut of the week. I'm worried that I changed that and it could all go wrong!!

    I'm feeding a variety, well balanced, and in realistic amounts (I don't pile the plate a mile high). Everyone wants to know why she's not obese, why her coat shines, why she seems so healthy. I figure that's why.

    I'm very reluctant to fix what ain't broke here.

    Edited to add... I wrote this post to immediately follow my other post and then walked outside to do chores. It hadn't posted yet. This isn't a response to you 4Skwerlz it's just an addition to my last post. If that makes sense.
    Scooby's diet sounds perfect. It helps when they're good eaters, but you're doing a couple of things that are so important: 1) You give her the healthy foods and then that's it; she either eats it or doesn't. 2) You're limiting the treats/nuts/snacks. Many, many people do not follow those simple rules. But then you have a lot of experience with animals, and HORSES, which makes you a vet practically if you know what I mean...
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  4. #24
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    At current recommended levels, assuming that blocks are eaten as well, but not counting the vitamin a levels in the non-asterisked foods, except for romaine, since that seems to be a staple, the monthly intake of beta-carotene would be approximately

    15 mg, or around 700% of the recommended amount

    Should this be doubled? Or more? I do think we need to make sure to keep the amount under the level at which the beta-carotene turns the fat orange, so we don't end up with orange squirrels! I'll see if I can find that....

    Again, "Beta-carotene is the most potent precursor to vitamin A, but its conversion to vitamin A in the body is limited by a feedback system. Beta carotene has two roles in the body. It can be converted into vitamin A (retinol) if the body needs more vitamin A. If the body has enough vitamin A, instead of being converted, beta carotene acts as an antioxidant which protects cells from damage caused by harmful free radicals.

    Therefore, I don't see the problem, and if as you say "Three tbsp sweet potato has 400% of the HUMAN requirement of vitamin A" (I assume this is RDA), being a Southern boy, I'm surprised I don't glow orange.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by PBluejay2
    Again, "Beta-carotene is the most potent precursor to vitamin A, but its conversion to vitamin A in the body is limited by a feedback system. Beta carotene has two roles in the body. It can be converted into vitamin A (retinol) if the body needs more vitamin A. If the body has enough vitamin A, instead of being converted, beta carotene acts as an antioxidant which protects cells from damage caused by harmful free radicals.

    Therefore, I don't see the problem, and if as you say "Three tbsp sweet potato has 400% of the HUMAN requirement of vitamin A" (I assume this is RDA), being a Southern boy, I'm surprised I don't glow orange.
    Yeah, I'm aware of the mechanisms. What I'm asking is what are you proposing? Unlimited amounts?
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  6. #26
    Giftee's Mom Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    I am one of the faithful that will swear by the HHB diet and recommendations set forth by 4skwerlz. If there's even a chance the oxalates in spinach might block the calcium in the spinach from being absorbed, I personally see no reason to feed it, unless your squirrel likes it for an occasional treat. The phosphorus would have no calcium with which to bind, so it would actually rob the body of more calcium, it seems. I want my squirrels to get all the natural calcium they can, so I don't think I'll be feeding much spinach. (Edit: my squirrels will not eat carrots, so no problem there!)

    However, if it works for you and your squirrels, by all means, feed away.

    I love the Healthy Diet because of the profound difference it's made for all my squirrels. Keep up the good work, 4s!

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by PBluejay2
    Okay, people, time to put down the popcorn and weigh in on this.

    BTW, 4s, since you've put a copyright notice on the healthy diet chart, I think we should have a healthy diet sticky that belongs to the board and is considered in the public domain.

    I agree with this. We need a diet sticky thread that is public domain, not copyrighted.

    As for the general discussion, I find this information about beta-cerotene not being converted to retinol unless the body needs it very helpful.

    I'm lucky in that Penny & Otis aren't that picky, so I'm able to offer a wide variety of things that they will at least try.

    I prefer to go by my grandmother's rule of thumb: all foods in moderation. Since P&O aren't picky, I find offering them as wide a variety as possible the healthiest option. When their bodies crave a particular nutrient, they seem to eat more of certain foods. I always offer a wide variety, though.

    For the record, I don't use HHBs or offer any form of vitamin supplement. All vitamins and other nutrients come directly from their diet. But as I said, P&O are good about eating a wide variety of foods, and I select their menu items by carefully looking at the nutrient content of each item (thanks again for those charts, PB!).
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  8. #28
    Pam Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by PBluejay2
    Okay, people, time to put down the popcorn and weigh in on this.
    I can't really weigh in on the vitamin A discussion because I have not done any research on it, but I have been following this topic and find it very interesting. Sweet potato was one of the first foods that I introduced to Roxy. She has continued to have it as part of her diet every day for almost 8 years. I am probably gonna be in trouble here....I give her approximately 3 tablespoons per day. It's not the first food she picks when I feed her, but it's the food that she comes back to and nibbles on all day. Other foods that are included in her diet are broccoli, a variety of green leafy lettuces, spinach, cauliflower, avocado, zucchini and yellow squash, cucumber, cherry or grape tomatoes, oranges or tangerines and nuts.

    I have another confession. Roxy has never eaten rodent block. I've offered her every kind available, but she will not eat them. I have even tried to starve her into eating them by not giving her anything except the blocks for three days. She still wouldn't eat them...she buries the blocks in her litter box and pees on them. The only form of calcium Roxy receives other than what is included in her diet is a Tums once a week.

    Please don't misunderstand me. I am not bragging on the way that Roxy has been raised...I am just being truthful. She seems very healthy for an 8 year old squirrel. She is not over weight (she weighs a little over a pound) and has a beautiful shiny golden colored coat. I believe she gets what her body needs from the diet I offer her to remain healthy.

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Pam, it sounds like Roxy is a good eater, like my Penny & Otis, and by offering a varied diet that she actually eats, she's getting the nutrients her body needs. I feel that's the healthiest way--providing fresh foods that naturally contain a variety of nutrients.

    However, I'm also aware that many captive squirrels are very picky eaters, and in those cases supplementation will be needed.

    BUT, if you have a squirrel who is a good eater, I don't think supplementation should be automatic, nor should restrictions on healthy foods such as those rich in beta-carotene.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    Yeah, I'm aware of the mechanisms. What I'm asking is what are you proposing? Unlimited amounts?
    I think if you wanted to look hard enough, you'd find that just about all foods have one nutrient or the other that might send the intake shooting way over the daily/monthly requirement if fed too often and too much. Therefore, I'd simply emphasize that all foods should be fed in moderation and that variety is the key. If you wanted to asterisk something, I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

    What Ardilla said about the copyright. You said you weren't "the decider," but the healthy diet was coverted to a copyrighted chart that only you can change. I think the healthy diet sticky, even though your chart is extremely attractive, should go back to its old format so that at least admin could change it if need be, or at least converted so that it can be changed in its current format, and it MUST belong to everyone. I also think that above the Healthy Diet list of fruits and vegetables should be an brief explanation of the need to adhere as closely to the 2 to 1 ca-ph ratio with a link to the Food Data chart.

    Now about that spinach . . .

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Pam
    I can't really weigh in on the vitamin A discussion because I have not done any research on it, but I have been following this topic and find it very interesting. Sweet potato was one of the first foods that I introduced to Roxy. She has continued to have it as part of her diet every day for almost 8 years. I am probably gonna be in trouble here....I give her approximately 3 tablespoons per day. It's not the first food she picks when I feed her, but it's the food that she comes back to and nibbles on all day. Other foods that are included in her diet are broccoli, a variety of green leafy lettuces, spinach, cauliflower, avocado, zucchini and yellow squash, cucumber, cherry or grape tomatoes, oranges or tangerines and nuts.

    I have another confession. Roxy has never eaten rodent block. I've offered her every kind available, but she will not eat them. I have even tried to starve her into eating them by not giving her anything except the blocks for three days. She still wouldn't eat them...she buries the blocks in her litter box and pees on them. The only form of calcium Roxy receives other than what is included in her diet is a Tums once a week.

    Please don't misunderstand me. I am not bragging on the way that Roxy has been raised...I am just being truthful. She seems very healthy for an 8 year old squirrel. She is not over weight (she weighs a little over a pound) and has a beautiful shiny golden colored coat. I believe she gets what her body needs from the diet I offer her to remain healthy.
    There are certainly some squirrels that manage to do okay without rodent blocks. Being a good eater helps, and limiting the unhealthy stuff probably helps a lot. Pam, according to the research I've read, once rodents reach a certain age, they are much less prone to MBD or other nutrient deficiencies. Whether this was due to decreased requirement or more efficient metabolism of the nutrients is unknown, but it's a good thing. Her shiny coat, IMO, means that whatever you're doing is working.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by PBluejay2
    I think if you wanted to look hard enough, you'd find that just about all foods have one nutrient or the other that might send the intake shooting way over the daily/monthly requirement if fed too often and too much. Therefore, I'd simply emphasize that all foods should be fed in moderation and that variety is the key. If you wanted to asterisk something, I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

    What Ardilla said about the copyright. You said you weren't "the decider," but the healthy diet was coverted to a copyrighted chart that only you can change. I think the healthy diet sticky, even though your chart is extremely attractive, should go back to its old format so that at least admin could change it if need be, or at least converted so that it can be changed in its current format, and it MUST belong to everyone. I also think that above the Healthy Diet list of fruits and vegetables should be an brief explanation of the need to adhere as closely to the 2 to 1 ca-ph ratio with a link to the Food Data chart.

    Now about that spinach . . .
    I'm hoping we can stick to one issue at a time and not relitigate the entire diet issue.... of course if we must, we must.

    So you're proposing that sweet potatoes, carrots, and the squashes be unasterisked, and that a general statement about "everything in moderation" be added? (I believe the importance of "variety" is mentioned, several times.)
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  13. #33
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    I'm hoping we can stick to one issue at a time and not relitigate the entire diet issue.... of course if we must, we must.

    So you're proposing that sweet potatoes, carrots, and the squashes be unasterisked, and that a general statement about "everything in moderation" be added? (I believe the importance of "variety" is mentioned, several times.)
    Therefore, I'd simply emphasize that all foods should be fed in moderation and that variety is the key. If you wanted to asterisk something, I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

    What is unclear about this?

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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    So you're proposing that sweet potatoes, carrots, and the squashes be unasterisked, and that a general statement about "everything in moderation" be added? (I believe the importance of "variety" is mentioned, several times.)

    I think this would be an excellent move at this point. The beta-carotene is not dangerous in thos efood items, and they don't need to be "red-flagged."

    I think adding a note about offering foods in moderation (not too much, not too little) and offering as wide a variety of foods as possible is also an excellent idea.

    Personally, I would also note that supplements are not necessary except for picky eaters. Supplementation (including HHBs) should not be automatic. I've become concerned by several posts over the past few months where posters are taking all fresh veggies away and only pushing the HHBs. If the squirrels want to eat the veggies, they should be encouraged to do so, not have their fresh foods taken away in favor of HHBs, which, from my understanding, are supposed to be a supplement, not a staple food.
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by PBluejay2
    Therefore, I'd simply emphasize that all foods should be fed in moderation and that variety is the key. If you wanted to asterisk something, I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

    What is unclear about this?
    I think that a vague statement that everything should be fed in moderation isn't that helpful to the average person. "Moderation" means different things to different people. The thing I've been asked time and time again is "just tell what to feed and how much." Remember, we're dealing with the general public and trying to keep the diet as foolproof as possible.

    Anyhow, it appears that carotenodermia occurs in humans at around 10 times the recommended daily amount. If our current diet is already at 7X the RDA, then is this cause for any concern?

    And I didn't really want to get into all this, but there's more to nutrition than whether a nutrient is toxic or not. Many nutrients interact with one another; some "work together"; others "compete" or "block" other nutrients. That's a major reason why a healthy diet is a balanced diet. So I do have some concerns about any one nutrient being so oversupplied in the diet. Perhaps I'm overcautious about this.
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    That's a major reason why a healthy diet is a balanced diet. So I do have some concerns about any one nutrient being so oversupplied in the diet. Perhaps I'm overcautious about this.
    I think keeping it balanced is the exact reason NOT to limit certain foods. Limiting one type of food makes it unbalanced in relation to everything that isn't limited.
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by PBluejay2
    What Ardilla said about the copyright. You said you weren't "the decider," but the healthy diet was coverted to a copyrighted chart that only you can change. I think the healthy diet sticky, even though your chart is extremely attractive, should go back to its old format so that at least admin could change it if need be, or at least converted so that it can be changed in its current format, and it MUST belong to everyone. I also think that above the Healthy Diet list of fruits and vegetables should be an brief explanation of the need to adhere as closely to the 2 to 1 ca-ph ratio with a link to the Food Data chart.
    I don't think you were around when the Healthy Diet was being created, but the Healthy Diet is not "mine" in the sense you are implying. The entire diet, including all of the theory behind it, its design, and most of the foods on the lists, was created as a group effort, agreed upon by consensus. I maintain it, and I usually take the lead in bringing up issues simply because no one else on TSB has had the knowledge or interest or time to do so.

    The Diet has been revised numbers of times, always through discussion and consensus. Why? Because consensus is vital with this important issue of diet. Nothing else causes more illness and death than bad diet. This is where all of our squirrels are most at risk. And when a new member comes onboard, one of our most vital tasks is to FIX THE DIET, always. And to do this effectively, we must, to the extent possible, speak as one voice. When people hear conflicting advice, they tune out.

    As to the copyright notice, that simply prevents unauthorized use of something all of us at TSB have worked very hard to create. The creation, revision, and management of the Diet has been overseen and approved by Admin every step of the way, I can assure you.
    Last edited by 4skwerlz; 02-06-2010 at 04:14 PM.
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    As to the copyright notice, that simply prevents unauthorized use of something all of us at TSB have worked very hard to create. The creation, revision, and management of the Diet has been overseen and approved by Admin every step of the way, I can assure you.
    Honestly, I would not assume that. It says "©2009 Henry's Healthy Blocks," not "©2009 The Squirrel Board." I thought you were laying claim to it, since the HHB company is yours.
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    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardilla
    I think keeping it balanced is the exact reason NOT to limit certain foods. Limiting one type of food makes it unbalanced in relation to everything that isn't limited.
    A balanced diet means a "balance of nutrients"; not "equal amounts of every food." A cup of meat, a cup of veggies, a cup of fat, and a cup of sugar wouldn't be a balanced diet. Dietary recommendations must also take into account the eating habits/tastes of the audience. This is why humans are always "encouraged to eat more" veggies and fiber and "encouraged to limit" fats and sweets. "Eat 5 servings of this, and only 1 serving of that" and so on. Foods that are particularly high in one nutrient--whether it be sugar or fat or a certain vitamin--often need to be limited.
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  20. #40
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardilla
    Honestly, I would not assume that. It says "©2009 Henry's Healthy Blocks," not "©2009 The Squirrel Board." I thought you were laying claim to it, since the HHB company is yours.
    I agree. If anyone is to lay claim to a copyright, it should be the board, not a private company/individual who advertises to and profits from its members and guests.

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