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Thread: Multi-Milk Troubles!

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    I went on a mission to find whipping cream with milk fat as the number one ingredient and not skim milk and low and behold they had it at Wal-mart. It must have been out of stock last time I went. I will try the new can of multi-milk and if it is the same I will switch. I am still hopeful the new can will do the trick.

    If worse comes to worse I can get FV from the center where I volunteer (I can't believe I just typed that, I HATE that stuff). At this point, my babies would have done better on that stuff at 3:1 though. My squirrels are between 100 and 120 grams and they are fox squirrels that have had their eyes open AT LEAST one week, most longer. They are gaining only a couple grams at a time now. They look like 4-5 week old squirrels .
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    4skwerlz, you had said it was possible to make formula for squirrels. At this point, if I can have the directions for making up formula that will be suitable for babies and especially bunnies (I am so scared I am going to get another one and have NOTHING safe to give it), I am willing to do it no matter how expensive (well up to 2-3 times the regular cost of formula is OK) or time consuming (I will take vacation time from work if I have too!). Do you have directions for making formula comprable to Esbilac and Multi-milk?
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  3. #23
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    Anyone able to take a sample of the "bad" formula for a culture to see if it's contaminated with Salmonella?

    PBluejay, do you have the equipment to do this?

    I don't have the expertise, unfortunately. What I do know is that I have two 2-week-olds who haven't had a firm poop since they were 12 grams. My only comfort is that they are gaining every day, but I have to give them 1-2 feedings of Pedialyte a day to keep them hydrated. They are both on PetAg products (Esbilac and MultiMilk, started them on GME(didn't work)). Right now I'm not buying AT ALL that this is simply a switch in the processing. The conspiracy-theorist part of me says that PetAG has done something different with a basic ingredient in ALL its formulas (I think you and IR mentioned something about where it comes from (possibly China)). I really have no idea what to do right now as far as formula. I keep ordering stuff and paying the bucks and things aren't getting better. The only qualification I have is that I have a Southern flyer on Esbilac that is peeing and pooping wonderfully. I have another SFSQ on FV 20/50 who is doing the same. My older grays are doing well with the FV 20/50. I've said this before, but I'm wondering if I should just buy another 5 gallons of 20/50 and supplement the protein with whey protein (have to figure out how much though)and use that even for the pinkies. I had issues with the pre-4 week FV earlier this summer, but I'm about ready to write another check and kiss PetAg goodbye forever and take my chances. You like to research, 4s, and I don't have time, so do the world a favor and get to the bottom of all of this mess!

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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelsrule&bunniestoo
    4skwerlz, you had said it was possible to make formula for squirrels. At this point, if I can have the directions for making up formula that will be suitable for babies and especially bunnies (I am so scared I am going to get another one and have NOTHING safe to give it), I am willing to do it no matter how expensive (well up to 2-3 times the regular cost of formula is OK) or time consuming (I will take vacation time from work if I have too!). Do you have directions for making formula comprable to Esbilac and Multi-milk?

    I'll tell you the truth; there's no magic to these formula mixes. They are nothing but a "milk product" plus butter fat or something else to bump up the fat content, something to increase protein, and then a long list of vitamins and minerals.

    I really hate to take on another project, but if you're serious, I could take the nutritional profile of Esbilac, which we now have, and duplicate it using food-grade (human quality), not feed-grade (or from China) ingredients.

    I guess I'm willing if you really think it's worth trying. If you need it urgently, I could do it tomorrow. I mean to save babies' lives.
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    This is so sad Thankfully my kids: SQs and Possie are doing fine on the GME good firm poops.... I order a new can every 5 days and havent had any issues yet. If I ever have an issue Im gonna feed our goats milk to my babies.


    SIDE NOTE of interest.

    were raising a kitten we had him on KMR but after constant diarrhea then blood with brown water..we had ENOUGH!!!!

    We switch to fresh goats milk and he is doing SOOOO much better.

    what is wrong with these ppl! my puppes were sick on esbilac...my kitten on KMR ..if you cannot even feed what its meant for with the formula..why bother selling it


    Mandie

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    If it is going to take a lot of work for you to figure out, then I can struggle through with Fox Valley for this year (I HOPE they sort this out by spring!). I am just worried I will get a bunny in (not likely, but definetely possible) and have nothing to feed it that is OK for them. My squirrels will survive (I hope!).

    I thought you already knew how to make it and just didn't think it would be necessary. Since you have to do a lot of work to figure it out, you can hold off. At this point, I would be willing to make special made formula to get my guys big and healthy (although I still haven't tried the whipping cream I got yesterday, that may help out a lot).
    Quote Originally Posted by 4skwerlz
    I'll tell you the truth; there's no magic to these formula mixes. They are nothing but a "milk product" plus butter fat or something else to bump up the fat content, something to increase protein, and then a long list of vitamins and minerals.

    I really hate to take on another project, but if you're serious, I could take the nutritional profile of Esbilac, which we now have, and duplicate it using food-grade (human quality), not feed-grade (or from China) ingredients.

    I guess I'm willing if you really think it's worth trying. If you need it urgently, I could do it tomorrow. I mean to save babies' lives.
    SQUIRRELS RULE AND BUNNIES TOO!

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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelsrule&bunniestoo
    If it is going to take a lot of work for you to figure out, then I can struggle through with Fox Valley for this year (I HOPE they sort this out by spring!). I am just worried I will get a bunny in (not likely, but definetely possible) and have nothing to feed it that is OK for them. My squirrels will survive (I hope!).

    I thought you already knew how to make it and just didn't think it would be necessary. Since you have to do a lot of work to figure it out, you can hold off. At this point, I would be willing to make special made formula to get my guys big and healthy (although I still haven't tried the whipping cream I got yesterday, that may help out a lot).
    Let me see if I can come up with a quick recipe. I already have the Excel spreadsheets I created that do the nutrient calculations automatically. I just plug in the ingredients. May be a wash, but we'll see.
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Okay, here's a start. The chart below compares the different formulas, as well as the rat nutrient requirements for growth, and one set of data on actual squirrel milk.

    Note: I found a number of errors in the "Esbilac Analysis" spreadsheet that was apparently provided by PetAg. I probably also created some errors, as there was a LOT of converting of units going on. This is just a starting point for looking at the formula question. Everything needs to be verified.

    Data for the KMR that looked possibly significant at first glance are in red. (The red amino acids are the essential amino acids.)

    Name:  FormulaCompare.jpg
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    The animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations… ~Henry Beston, The Outermost House, 1928

  9. #29
    PBluejay2 Guest

    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturesGift
    This is so sad Thankfully my kids: SQs and Possie are doing fine on the GME good firm poops.... I order a new can every 5 days and havent had any issues yet. If I ever have an issue Im gonna feed our goats milk to my babies.


    SIDE NOTE of interest.

    were raising a kitten we had him on KMR but after constant diarrhea then blood with brown water..we had ENOUGH!!!!

    We switch to fresh goats milk and he is doing SOOOO much better.

    what is wrong with these ppl! my puppes were sick on esbilac...my kitten on KMR ..if you cannot even feed what its meant for with the formula..why bother selling it


    Mandie

    I wonder if the difference could be in powdered versus canned, some preservative or anti-caking agent--something, possibly something not listed specifically as to what it is on the informational charts.

    Great job on the chart, 4s! I wish we could get the info on FV to compare.

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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Here are the specs on Fox Valley Day One 32/40 (for squirrels 0-4 wks).

    http://www.foxvalleynutrition.com/pr...p?CID=1&PLID=1
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    The 50 is the fat IR, so the one for older squirrels is higher in fat.

    On a VERY Good note... 2 of my squirrels have good poop now . A couple have semi-solid poop and only 3 are still really bad. I think it was a bad can of Multi-milk. I also picked up l-glucamine today, another rehabber suggessted it for the scrawny little ones.
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelsrule&bunniestoo
    The 50 is the fat IR, so the one for older squirrels is higher in fat.

    O
    Whoops, you're right! I will edit my confused post.
    Congratulations on good poops -- may they continue for all your babies.
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelsrule&bunniestoo
    The 50 is the fat IR, so the one for older squirrels is higher in fat.

    On a VERY Good note... 2 of my squirrels have good poop now . A couple have semi-solid poop and only 3 are still really bad. I think it was a bad can of Multi-milk. I also picked up l-glucamine today, another rehabber suggessted it for the scrawny little ones.
    Gee, I really hope that your littles do well. I should have suggested the L glucamine, but totally forgot about that. I started giving that to my little Jeffrey along with Acidophilus Forte...basically for the same thing...he looked so scrawny even though he was a few months old, eating like a little horse but just looked scrawny...Here is a before and after picture of Jeffrey...Name:  May_18,_2009_040.jpg
Views: 89
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    Name:  Aug_26,_2009_039.jpg
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    Well actually these were taken before and after, but one was in May and the other the end of August...

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    PBluejay2
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    Re: A Question for Our Rehabbers

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by island rehabber
    I've been lurking in this very interesting thread; figured I'd wait for Tomo to weigh in because I know she's had conversations with Dr P about blood work, etc. I will put my two cents' worth in about Fox Valley, though: like many FV users, I keep my babies on the Day One 32/40 forever...I don't switch to the 20/50 after four weeks. The reason is that I feel 20% fat is too low, especially for releases who are going out into a New York winter. When I did switch, my squirrels were buff...muscular but very lean. We don't want lean for the fall kids, so I leave them on 32/40 and they are doing great.



    When I switched to FV I also noticed they grew up leaner (on the 20/50). I didn't have a good experience with FV 32/40 early in the summer with pinkies, and after all the Esbilac hubub I went to GME. Back the the point: the "50" in the 20/50 IS the fat content. The 20 is the protein. How this affects their weight exactly remains somewhat of a mystery to me even after reading up on it a little. You'd think "more fat=fatter squirrel," but it doesn't seem to work precisely like that.

    Sometimes I don't think anyone listens

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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    I know the feeling PBluejay.

    I know you have told IR before and actually I have too , she will get it.

    The little guys just got their first feeding with the l-glutamine added, hopefully that helps them start picking up the weight like they should. I have taken a bunch of pictures of the little tykes, I will try to post them tomorrow.
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    *sigh*


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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Quote Originally Posted by island rehabber
    *sigh*


    Okay, I'm not getting into the "formula wars" and if you try to drag me in, I'm goin' to the beach instead.....

    But if you notice, all of the formulas are pretty low on the amino acids (and a few other things) compared with the supposed rat requirements. Actually, if you look at all the numbers, there are a lot of potential problems. Frankly, IMO, these numbers are so mixed up that I just know there are problems here somewhere. They indicate a lack of consensus, if nothing else.

    Still, at this point, I feel like a caveman walking into the Louvre: Very interesting, but no idea how to interpret what I'm seeing....
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    It looks like multi-milk is the best for amino acids, though, perhaps that is why bunnies thrive on it . If they are weakened, I have found that adding Prozyme really helps too, perhaps it fills in the gaps that are missing in the formula?

    We won't drag you into the formula war, don't worry. It really isn't a war anyways, actually we all may soon be in agreement that FV is the best thing available at the moment. I am picking some up today just in case I need it (no one gained weight AGAIN). If my babies won't grow on the formula I love, I am smart enough to make the switch, even if I hate the formula. For me, FV is DEADLY for bunnies (unless you mix it 3:1 and then you can get them by but they are super scrawny and seem to develop digestive issues), but manageable for squirrels if you are careful. I can get squirrels onto 2.5:1 FV, so they gain weight and grow, just not as well. They can survive and would grow more than they are on the Esbilac right now.
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    I can get squirrels onto 2.5:1 FV, so they gain weight and grow, just not as well.
    I dilute FV 1:2......my squirrels are chubbo's and chubbettes.
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    Default Re: Multi-Milk Troubles!

    Have you also tried the Acidophilus Forte along with the l-glucamine? I have a large bottle here that I can ship to you...

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