Seizure (?) and lethargy in baby just fed

[kaymidwife]

Help!
The baby I just posted the pics of last night in the Douglas' squirrel forum was doing great and eating better than she ever had before. The way she ate last night and this am at 6 kind of scared me, she was so frantic and sucking so hard. Then, when I approached her for her 10 am feeding, she wouldn't take it, urinated, and then appeared to have a seizure. She's been lethargic since (it's 1pm here), and all I can do is dribble a little Lactated Ringer's solution into her mouth each hour. I don't think she's aspirated-- she''s not clicking, bubbling, sneezing, etc. She looks really dull after having been wonderfully animated. She's been off antibiotics for cat wounds for 2 days now. Anybody have any ideas? How warm should I be keeping her (I'm keeping her bed pretty warm).
Kay

[Timber]

Is there anyway that you can get her to a vet? The attack from the cat my have done something that is affecting her neurologically that is causing the seizures. Some times these things do not show up immediately.

[muffinsquirrel]

OK rehabbers with more experience than I have - how about MBD?

muffinsquirrel

[rygel1hardt]

My advice is to take him back to the vet you got the antibiotics from ASAP and also you can try calling Chris at Chris's squirrels and more. She has a ton of experience and should be able to help. Is this baby eating Esbilac puppy formula? If he is then he shouldnt have MBD. Please call Chris. Stacey

[BuckeyeSqrl]

How old is the squirrel? My guess is MBD. Classic symptoms.

[muffinsquirrel]

As far as how warm to keep her, put a heating pad (set on low) under half of her box. Be sure that the baby can get away from the heat if she wants to. You might want to make a 'rice buddy' to keep her company. I hope Chris and/or the vet can help you with her.

muffinsquirrel

[kaymidwife]

Thanks to all who posted. I'm more and more frustrated with the system out here. No vet would talk to me (I had the antibiotics from my previous experience with raising a kitten) so I got the appropriate dosage from one of the web postings.

Anyway, had a real "God shot" today. Was exhausted from seeing my own patients all day and in between trying to call veterinarians & animal agencies, etc. Each contact more frustrating than the last. The vets don't have wildlife licenses, so won't help unless I have one. Each one gave me two more phone numbers that didn't pan out. The one wildlife agency I got hold of only does raptors and large mammals. The one I could only leave a voice mail on did call me back, but didn't leave me a direct number, so every time I call them, I get their voice mail again. They're located 80 miles away from me, anyhow.

So, back to the God shot. I get back to my office from a meeting. I'm in tears. The lady who cleans our birth center asks what's wrong, & I show her. Turns out she worked for a wildlife rehab agency in California for 7 years. She helped me give fluids subq, and Gracie was acting normally about an hour later. Took one cc of LR orally without a problem. And this after refusing fluids all day. 2 hours later she's taken 1 cc of dilute esbilac. But I tell you, never again am I going to feed her the full strength stuff. So I'm feeling guardedly hopeful.

But tell me where I can find out more about this MBD. I'm not sure she could have it, having never had anything but esbilac.

So, here's hoping things stay good...
Thanks again to you all

Oh, and what's this "rice baby" thing? I really do feel like she's getting to need somebody to bounce off of and chatter at. She's really rambunctious now she's off the critical list.

Kay

[Secret Squirrel]

Was her stool loose on the antibiotics?
When taking her off the antibiotics it will cause a change in her gut. She may seem a bit constipated until her gut gets used to the recommended amount of formula. She may have her gut flora out of wack. A little bit of full fat, none artificially sweetened yogurt , vanilla , would help her gut get back to normal. Or Benebac is a great product to get gut flora back to normal too.
I would increase her esbilac mix of formula to the recommended amount. I wouldn't mess with a proved formula...1 part esbilac powder to 2 parts very warm water.
Why do you think you will never give her "full strength formula" (in your words) to her ???
Do you think it was the formula that gave her the lethargy and seizure ?

[Secret Squirrel]

Oh, and what's this "rice baby" thing? I really do feel like she's getting to need somebody to bounce off of and chatter at. She's really rambunctious now she's off the critical list.

Kay[/quote]

Put uncooked rice in a sock tie it shut....warm the rice sock in the microwave ...time depending on the amount of rice used...start with 30 sec intervals until it's warm. Put the Rice buddy with Grace so she can snuggle it.
I just put a soft plush animal (stuffed toy) in bed with the baby to snuggle with. No bean bag toys...Oh and have a few so you can machine wash and dry them....thrift stores have good cheap stuffed animals.
Gracie will actually wrestle the toy and drag it around her cage.

[kaymidwife]

I was under the impression that full strength was 1:1, as described by Mary Cummins of Animal Advocates in California. She has tables at the back of her pamphlet "Raising Infant Tree Squirrels" that talks about 1:2 and 1:1 (esbilac to water) mixtures. I'd also found a reference describing 1.5 parts esbilac to 2parts water as more nearly consistent with squirrel milk than either of the others. I'd increased her to the 1.5 and decreased her feedings to every 3.5 hours just twice (she'd been on every 2.5 hours as advocated in Mary's book while on the 1:2 mixture and hadn't gained much weight). So it may be that the increase to 1.5 just about destroyed her. That's what I meant when I said I'd not do 1:1 unless she was taking water on her own. I thought the 1:1 was full strength for squirrels.

You answered a question that had occurred to me-- the thing about gut flora. But I was afraid to give anything like yoghurt. I'm very aware of what antibiotics do to the gut. Thanks for letting me know yogurt would be ok. Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure my local pet store has the gut flora product you mentioned. I think I'll get some of that, just to be safe.

I was pretty sure what she had was a seizure right before she got lethargic--she sprang squeaking all over her cage with stiff, trembling limbs, then urinated. But, if, as you said, the antibiotic could cause some constipation, then maybe she was reacting to her tummy hurting. I just don't know, but she did it several times during the day and really scared me. Wouldn't take anything by mouth. I barely got her to take a few drops of LR. I'm just glad she seems better now. Her stomach isn't distended, and she's accepting dilute formula. She has urinated, and I'll be really glad to see a normal BM.

Thanks for your help. ANd thanks for the info about the stuffed toys. I've got a couple left over from when my bottle fed kitten was a baby. This little girl is so tiny, though, I wonder if she's a lot like the red squirrels back east.

Kay

[muffinsquirrel]

I'd stick with 1 part esbilac/2 parts water - particularly while she is so young. The only change I make in the ratio is as the babies get older, I don't level off the esbilac as much. I am a firm beliver in the benefits of yogurt, and use it a lot when I am weaning babies - it's easy for them to lap, and I can mix esbilac into it to make sure they are getting enough vitamins during the changeover. I usually use Dannon LaCreme vanilla while they are real young, but as they get older, they like the flavors, too - especially the strawberry.

For some information on MBD, check here

http://www.nfsa.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=935

Although the information at NFSA pertains to flying squirrels, there is a lot of good information on there that is useful for all squirrels. The people on there are very friendly and helpful, and, of course, more than a little nutty, so feel free to visit and ask questions.

muffinsquirrel

[kaymidwife]

Hi Muffinsquirrel,
I thank you for your help. I think you were right about it being a post-antibiotic problem. Last night she passed a very hard, huge (for her) stool, & was frantic while she did it, then exhausted. I could hear her stomach gurgling, and a little while later she started passing green diarrhea, each time throwing herself around her cage, shrieking and trembling. Poor little soul. I'm lactose & gluten intolerant, so know what kind of pain she's having. It makes complete sense now. Last night I gave her LR mixed with yogurt starter (which is a big dose of the bacteria that makes yogurt what it is). This am she was exhausted after another bout of diarrhea, so I just gave her 1 cc of sub-q LR again. I live in hope.

[Secret Squirrel]

I am glad to hear she is pooing!!! It had me worried all night!!!!
It's safe to say she was having gut problems due to the many changes in her diet & antibiotic.
She needs to be on a consistant diet.....the change ups are hurting her. The yougart is only to introduce good gut flora. Your right it's good bacteria she needed for proper bowl movement . Stop the yougart once you see a change in her BM's.
If she is still nursing stick to the 1 part escilac & 2 parts very warm water. She is still a baby, and needs formula at the recommended rate.
Dont worry too much about trying to fatten her up...she should gain weight just fine on the correct formula. You can also stop the RL too. She will get all the nutrients and water intake from the formula. If the heat source is too warm it will dehydrate her, so be sure she can crawl off the heat source when nesessary.
Lots of luck....keep us posted....Gracie is beautiful!!

[kaymidwife]

Thank you.
But I'm confused at the moment-- with the diarrhea happening should I be feeding her any esbilac? I'm just feeding LR at the moment ( I stopped the dilute formula once I saw the diarrhea), with the flora mixed in. She's willing to lap it up, but she's not active, and not happy. Everything I've read says feed rehydrating fluid until diarrhea resolves, but Im worried about her having no nutrients for so long. Thanks so much for your help. Don't know what I'd do without it.
Kay

[BuckeyeSqrl]

I would keep her on the 2-1 Esbliac formula consistently. You can also give her a small dose (about .02cc) of Kaopectate. That can also help the diarrhea.

[Secret Squirrel]

Poor gal.... you have soo much input and it can be confusing...as it was to us all!!! This is my advice...but if you want to follow just one person's advice....it would be my suggestion to call Chris and do what she says by the book. That would eliminate duplicate instructions or home remedies we have all tried to one point or another.
It's scary to have a baby and want to do what is right and not mess up...we all have been there. Since this is your first, you really need to deal with one person.....and don't forget to breath!!!!

If she is dehydrated.....give LR for the first 12 hours. Or subQ if severly dehydrated. (subq fluid should be warm before injecting) You have already done the subQ...but I can't see her to know if she is still dehydrated.

She needs 1/2 ratio of esbliac 2cc every 2 to 3 hours. She needs to digest the formula before you feed her again....don't overfeed her because she will bloat. It's ok for her to get a little hungery...

Warm formula, and warm place to sleep...but she needs a place to cool off if she gets too hot!!!

The Benebac or yougart is given before, during, after or in between feedings, just a few licks is good. Once her bowls get stable you can stop the yougart or benebac. It's your choice...the active cultures won't hurt her once the diariea stops. She will just get used to the sweet stuff and want more....like candy to a baby!!!

1 part esbilac to 2 parts water

[kaymidwife]

Thank you all again. I'm crossing my fingers as I say this, but she hasn't had diarrhea since early am. she took 2cc LR every 1.5 hours and I just gave her 1cc esbilac 1:2. I'll be waiting eagerly for normal poops today or tonight.

[island rehabber]

Thank you all again. I'm crossing my fingers as I say this, but she hasn't had diarrhea since early am. she took 2cc LR every 1.5 hours and I just gave her 1cc esbilac 1:2. I'll be waiting eagerly for normal poops today or tonight.

Good news, Kay.....(yawn!)...I'll be waiting at 3:00-4:00am again, myself, for normal pinky poops!....(yawn).....mine don't go, yours goes too much, it's a nuthouse of poop issues around here. Good work with your little girl!

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

I'll be waiting at 3:00-4:00am again, myself, for normal pinky poops

ahh ..All in the day of a squirrels Mommy!

[Timber]

Oh Yeah, tell me about it! Yawn!!!!