MBD Question

[luvs squirrels]

I need clarification, or something to ease my mind, that Sammy's behavior is normal for MBD.

I first posted right before Thanksgiving that he'd been diagnosed with diabetes, but through the questions asked, also determined he had MBD. We got a FSL that is on him every day. I give him the calcium carbonate amount 4skwerlz has suggested. He has been taken off fruit and here's his diet: Ground up primate biscuit mixed with Glucerna and a little water. I give this to him three times every day. I provide him carrots, broccoli, sweet potato, zuchinni, romaine lettuce, mushrooms, total cereal, plain shredded wheat, one hazelnut and one acorn (total of 2 per day), and a little avocado. He will not eat the blocks the way they are so I gring them up and he loves it that way. I've also tried Kale, Bok Choy, red bell peppers, parsley, snap peas and he won't touch them. Lately I've been sneaky and ground up bok choy and put it in his buscuit mixture. He's a very picky eater. Sometimes he'll eat the stuff I provide and sometimes not. The only thing I can count on him eating other than the biscuit mixture is carrot, total cereal, shredded wheat, avocado and any acorn I offer.

Here's what he's doing (or not doing). He doesn't hardly raise his tail, he basically stays in his bed unless he wants a drink of water or needs to pee. He has gotten out of his bed in the afternoon right around when I feed him and looks in his bowls for food. That's happened about three times. He will poke his head out from his bed several times a day and look out for a while. Sometimes he'll chew on a hazlenut, but not that often - about once a week. When I get him out of his bed to feed him he makes a noise, not sure if it's a don't bother me or if it hurts him. I have felt him all over and don't feel anything that would lead me to believe anything is broken. He did fall out of a tree 5 1/2 years ago - that's how he came to be in our home - and his rear left leg had broken and fused together and he's never been able to use it. I have noticed when I hold him with his butt in my hand, his back kind of makes a creeking feel - it's hard to explain. I keep thinking it could be arthritis. He doesn't lift himself up much, but if he's interested in a nut or his avocado piece, he will come to life! To get him to exercise, I put him on our kitchen floor twice a day and make him walk to me about 3 feet each time. He does groom himself each time I get him out and his peeing and pooing seems to be normal. He is doing the moulting on his lower back and above his hind legs, which he's done every year.

I appreciate any suggestions or comments. Sorry this is so long, but I'm trying to write down everything I can think of to answer questions that may come my way. :D

:thankyou

[Miss Milo's Mom]

Hi,
My gray is going through MBD treatment also. I only give him about 1 acorn every other day. I put him back on Esbilac formula and I think this has helped him the most. I crush up 1/2 of a 600 mg calcium only tablet and I rub the food on it once a day, so he'll get his extra calcium. The full spectrum light has been helping him a lot too. He is doing much better now, but I will continue the treatment as long as needed.
Im not anywhere near an expert, so Im sure someone on the board will help you and tell you exactly what you need.
Best of luck and keep us posted.

[luvs squirrels]

Thanks, Milo Man's Mom. How long have you been doing the MBD treatment?

[Miss Milo's Mom]

Since about 2 days before Christmas. Milo won't eat rodent block or monkey chow. If you go under "Specific Ailment information" then "MBD Disease" and read the thread "I think my baby may need some help" you'll find very good info that the other senior members gave me.

[luvs squirrels]

Oh, yes...I've read that. I have gotten excellent help from several TSB members, expecially 4skwerlz. Good luck to you and Milo Man.

[4skwerlz]

Hi Luvs Squirrels,

All Sammy's symptoms sound like MBD to me: Poor appetite, lethargic, achy and sore, reluctant to crack nuts. As for not being able to raise his tail, MBD causes neurological symptoms as well. The lack of calcium interferes with the cell-to-cell signaling which is how the nervous system works. I'm trying to explain this simply. It usually starts at the hind end: tail first, then hind legs, and then finally the squirrel can become totally paralyzed. Also seizures are common. Fortunately, Sammy can still use all his legs. Be careful with him bending his back too far. His bones are still weak.

As far as diet, I believe the Glucerna was chosen instead of Esbilac formula because you suspected Sammy had diabetes, right? I'm still not convinced of this, but you should of course do whatever your vet says. Squirrels are picky eaters, but you're doing everything you can to get the food into him and that's all that matters. When he gets better, his appetite should improve so you might have more luck. As long as he's getting the Glucerna, the Total cereal, the monkey biscuit ground up, the extra calcium pill, and the FSL, I feel fairly confident he's getting everything he needs to get better from his MBD. My only tweaks would be, 1) Is he eating a fresh veggie high in Vit C every day, at least a few bites? 2) Is he getting enough protein and fat? One idea is to order some freeze-dried mealworms and see if he likes them. Very, very nutritious (fat, protein, and Vit D!!). Another way to increase fat content is to dip some of his food in a little vegetable oil.

Does this answer your questions?

[luvs squirrels]

Yes, 4skwerlz, you've made me feel much, much, much better!!!!!!!!! I will order the mealworms. He absolutely loves the avocado. That, the biscuit mixture, total and acorns are the only things I can always count on him to eat. The others are hit and miss. I'm sure he gets tired of the same thing each meal. Do you feel feeding him three times a day is ok? I give him a little piece of avocado every other feeding. The only thing I can think of is to do like I'm doing with the bok choy...mixing it up with his biscuit mixture, so maybe I can do that with some of the other foods that he really needs to eat. Do you have a suggestion as to what the best thing is that I sould give him?

:thankyou :thankyou :thankyou

[Critter_Queen]

If you can provide supplemental heat for him, he'd probably really like that. The bones in MBD squirrels ache and the heat will help him feel better.

You're doing a good job. Hang in there. :)

[luvs squirrels]

Thanks, CQ. I just want to make sure we're doing everything we can for my little man. When I have him out on my lap, I put a heating blanket under what he lays on, but what would you suggest in his bed? He pretty much stays in his bed all day long. Here's a picture of the hammock type bed he lays in - really can't do a heating pad there.

:thankyou

[Critter_Queen]

Try a Snuggle safe. You can find them at squirrelsandmore.com or sometimes at your pet or farm store. It's a bed warmer for pets. You microwave the disk, cover it with a soft blanket or cover and it will stay really warm for several hours before needed to be nuked again.

[4skwerlz]

Hi again, as far as the best foods, below I've sort of trimmed down the TSB Diet List to eliminate sugary foods, and to include the HEALTHIEST of the healthy foods. Hope this helps.

-Protein. Live or freeze-dried mealworms. Available from http://www.exoticnutrition.com/Treat-Department.htm. Although Sammy won't eat eggs, you could try baking some nutty "critter scones" and use lots of egg in the recipe, as well as ground-up monkey biscuit.

Calcium. In order, best sources first: Collard greens, mustard spinach, papaya, turnip greens, tofu (w/calcium sulfate or Nigiri), purslane, fresh parsley, beet greens, dandelion greens, Chinese cabbage (bok choy), looseleaf lettuce, kale, chicory, green cabbage, watercress, endive, celery, green beans, red cabbage, radish, swiss chard, winter squash, broccoli, cauliflower

-Fats. Insects, avocado, and nuts (2 per day max) provide fat. Also vegetable oil can be added to food.

-Vitamin C. A slice of citrus or bell pepper (green, red, or yellow) will aid calcium absorption. One slice daily. Most veggies have Vit C.

-Vitamin D. Eggs, dairy products, insects, and mushrooms are sources of Vitamin D.

-Natural foods. Acorns, magnolia cones, pine cones, branch tips, mushrooms, purslane and dandelion greens can be gathered and given as part of the diet.

- Nuts—Two per day, preferably in the shell.
Ripe brown acorns*, whole roasted pumpkin seeds, and almonds are the healthiest nuts.

As you can see, the mealworms would cover a lot of nutritional ground for Sammy. Let's hope he likes them.

The Total cereal (whole wheat) has fiber and is fortified with all the vitamins and minerals, but does contain some sugar. All-Bran is sugarless I believe.

[muffinsquirrel]

Perhaps you could make him a hammock like that, but in two layers so that you could insert a heating pad between the layers. Run the cord directly out of the cage, between the bars, so that he couldn't get to it. Also, those hand/foot warmers for hunters work really well - you just take them out of the pouch and shake them and they stay warm for 8 hours or so. They carry them at WalMart, but at sporting goods stores, you can get them that last for several days, or so they say. I have used the small ones, and they work really well. After hurricane Rita, we were without electricity for nearly a month, and I had babies that didn't have their eyes opened yet. The hand warmers kept them nice and toasty.

muffinsquirrel

[luvs squirrels]

Can't thank you all enough for all the great info and suggestions. We love fishing and I think we might actually have some of those hand warmers. That would work great.

I'll get the mealworms and look at the All-bran. Don't guess they have the freeze dried mealworms at any pet stores? I'll do a search here and see if any other places are listed...if not I'll use the website 4skwerlz gave.

Sammy says :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou to all his TSB buddies.

:Love_Icon

[4skwerlz]

Can't thank you all enough for all the great info and suggestions. We love fishing and I think we might actually have some of those hand warmers. That would work great.

I'll get the mealworms and look at the All-bran. Don't guess they have the freeze dried mealworms at any pet stores? I'll do a search here and see if any other places are listed...if not I'll use the website 4skwerlz gave.

Sammy says :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou to all his TSB buddies.

:Love_Icon

Absolutely, a good pet store should have the meal worms. That would be even better, because you could buy just a few and see if he likes them.

Please keep us posted on how Sammy is doing. One thing to watch out for is any excessive urination, which could indicate too much supplementation, but I don't anticipate that with Sammy right now. If you see any signs of improvement, we'd love to know; also any questions or concerns whatsoever. I would expect to see some real signs of improvement soon; if not, we should reassess. :grouphug

[luvs squirrels]

Thanks Gammas and 4skwerlz. That's why I wanted to do this thread. I needed to feel all warm and fuzzy inside that I just need to be patient (not one of my stongs suits, by the way) and to make sure since it's been a little over a month since he's being treated for MBD that there wasn't another issue we need to deal with. He's just too precious to me to take any chances - as you all know where I'm coming from! :D

I think there's only one pet store in the nearest bigger city so I'll give them a call and see if they carry the meal worms. If not, I'll order from the website.

I had a BUNCH of the hand and toe warmers and I've already put one in his bed. I'm sure that feels really good to him.

He does drink a good amount of water after each time I get him out to feed, but that's only about three times a day, so he will pee a good amount, but I don't think it's in excess and it is clear.

I'm also going to get some urine test strips that test glucose and ketone since he supposedly has diabetes.

Thanks again for all the help and I will definitely keep you updated.

Love to you all!
:Love_Icon

[4skwerlz]

Thanks Gammas and 4skwerlz. That's why I wanted to do this thread. I needed to feel all warm and fuzzy inside that I just need to be patient (not one of my stongs suits, by the way) and to make sure since it's been a little over a month since he's being treated for MBD that there wasn't another issue we need to deal with. He's just too precious to me to take any chances - as you all know where I'm coming from! :D

I think there's only one pet store in the nearest bigger city so I'll give them a call and see if they carry the meal worms. If not, I'll order from the website.

I had a BUNCH of the hand and toe warmers and I've already put one in his bed. I'm sure that feels really good to him.

He does drink a good amount of water after each time I get him out to feed, but that's only about three times a day, so he will pee a good amount, but I don't think it's in excess and it is clear.

I'm also going to get some urine test strips that test glucose and ketone since he supposedly has diabetes.

Thanks again for all the help and I will definitely keep you updated.

Love to you all!
:Love_Icon

That sounds good, Luvs. When the urination is excessive it is very obvious, so no worries there. Make sure Sammy gets PLENTY of water. With him being lethargic, he might not visit the water bottle often enough. We are also checking on some homeopathic remedies to perk Sammy up a bit. So check in every couple of days if you can.

You're quite welcome. We all enjoy helping little Sammy.:Love_Icon

[luvs squirrels]

I will definitely check in. I'm on here several times a day. I am so thankful that I found this place. I sure wish I would have found it 5 1/2 years ago. We'll be going into the city on Saturday, so if there are any suggestions of things I need to get for Sammy, we can do it then.

Thanks again for all the love and support.

[luvs squirrels]

We went in to town today instead of tomorrow. We found some meal worms at a pet store and he doesn't like them!!!!! :shakehead Also bought some collard greens and he doesn't like them!!!!!!!! :shakehead So, what I'm thinking about doing is cutting both of these up and putting them into his biscuit mixture I give him three times a day. Would that be ok? And how many of the meal worms should I give him a day?

Last night when I was putting him in after his supper, he fell over after he drank some water. I'm not sure if his hand slipped on his bowl or what. It wasn't really what you call a fall, just like he lost his balance and rolled over. He wasn't hurt or anything. I've been putting the hand warmers under his blanket when he's in his bed and have him on the heating pad when I have him out to feed him. He just doesn't seem to have any energy. He is still grooming himself and shows some energy when he knows he getting food. So......now Momma is worried sick again about her baby!

:)

[luvs squirrels]

I was in chat with 4skwerlz last night for an hour if not more...bless you 4skwerlz! She has suggested that I get him tested again at a vet for his diabetes and to give him 3/4 of one of my calcium with vitamin D gel capsules daily for 3 days and keep a watch for excess urination.

I made up my mixture of what he's been eating an entire day of ground Primate biscuit and rodent block with Glucerna and water and added the 3/4 of my calcium/vit D pill. I also added three minced up mealworms (that was fun...like biology). Well, he ate just about the entire amount at one feeding. He's never eatten the mixture like that since I've been giving it to him for several weeks now! He didn't want anything else I offered him except his acorn, which is normal for him now!!!!!

He was still very sluggish and just stays in his bed until I get him out for his feedings. He's enjoying the heat I'm putting in his bed to sleep on.

Keep your fingers crossed. I'm hoping it's just the MBD and not the diabetes since MBD can be fixed. It's hard because both diseases have the same symptoms. I am trying to avoid any of the foods I've been giving him that contain sugar for now.

:ohthedrama

[luvs squirrels]

4skwerlz has suggested that I give Sammy the full serving of two softgels per day for three days. Then one softgel per day for the next four days to give Sammy a total for the week of 5,000 mg.

It kind of scares me to give so much, but I'm definitely not an expert on this subject!!!!!

Thanks 4skwerlz for all the help and putting up with a scared Mom!

:D :Love_Icon

[4skwerlz]

I hope Luvs Squirrels won't mind that I am giving everyone an update on Sammy.

Sammy was diagnosed 2 months ago with diabetes by a local vet, and with MBD by those of us on TSB. Since then, his parents have done wonders with providing Sammy a diabetic diet, as well as treating him for MBD. This resulted in a brief period of improved health. Sadly, poor Sammy took a turn for the worse on Saturday night. He became very limp and lifeless. Although Sammy had tested negative for glucose with a human urine test previously, today he tested at 250 mg/dl, and then at 500 mg/dl, which would be considered diabetes in a rat. Of course, we have little or no info on squirrels, and the rat is our closest model. It appears Sammy does truly have diabetes and that it has suddenly gotten worse. With few options available in their state for vet care, Sammy's mom and dad are going to take him back to the vet who originally diagnosed him with diabetes. Although he had no expertise with squirrels, it was very kind of him to see Sammy at all. At this point, the feasibility of giving a squirrel regular insulin shots is unknown. So the options are looking grim for darling little Sammy right now, and his mom and dad's primary concern is that Sammy not suffer. :grouphug

I know everyone on TSB will join me in hoping and praying for a miracle for Sammy....and in offering comfort and support to his loving mom and dad.
:grouphug

[MyBushyTail]

Oh no, we are sorry to hear Sammy is worse. Our prayers are with Sammy and his family. Wishing him all the best. My last pet squirrel Angel II, who passed away this summer was also diagnosed with diabetes in 2004. Plus had numerous seizures each day for about 5 1/2 years. Hoping all goes well and Sammy recovers LS!

[Lady Squirrelly]

Thinking of Sammy and his parents. Best wishes.:grouphug :grouphug

[My Little Trouble]

Adding my prayers and best wishes for Sammy and his family. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/ozonetraveler/pray_smiley.gif

[luvs squirrels]

First of all, I want to thank 4skwerlz for all the support. She went way above and beyond yesterday. We ended up losing our precious Sammy today at 5:00 pm. The x-ray showed there was a problem with one of his vertebra and the vet said he had to be in pain, urinalysis showed the diabetes and blood work showed his kidneys and liver were shutting down.

I want to thank all of the people here for their support and caring. I do want to do a thread for him in the all squirrels go to heaven...it will just need to be a few days. My heart has absolutely broken in two. We lost a precious little miracle today.

Thank you all again - I love you all.
:Love_Icon

[wdarmac]

:grouphug :Love_Icon I am so sorry you lost your baby, my heart goes out to you, he will always be in your heart.:grouphug

[Pam]

I am so sorry, Luvs. :grouphug Sammy will be missed.

[Mars]

:sad :grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug

[My Little Trouble]

I'm so very, very sorry. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/ozonetraveler/sad-1.gif
My heart aches for your loss.

[Miss Milo's Mom]

I am so sorry you lost your little Sammy. I wish I could make all the pain go away and give you a hug.:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug