Diarrhea-Non-Life Threatening

[hanksmom]

Hello!! I have a 3 1/2 year old gray male. Got him when he was about 4 weeks, fell out of a tree. Did soft release ( he was healthy) lived in and out for about a year and one day decided he liked the life inside, lol. He was a singleton and I guess he prefers to stick with his mom (me). Anyways. He has been in for about 2 years, no issues, healthy and has a balanced diet of greens, squash, cucumber, avocado, in moderation 2 Henry blocks a day, and free feed mauzari blocks. No nuts, or seeds, besides a pecan maybe once every three months if that. Active, living his best life. For about 3- 4 weeks we have been dealing with diarrhea. When it started like 4 weeks ago, I noticed it after he had his piece of avocado, two days later it was very soft and splattered, stopped avocado, and it got better. Then roll around to the next week and I gave him some avocado again and it happened again....took the avocado away and he has not had any in about 2 weeks, but we are fighting this diarrhea every day. Now, his first poops in the morning are normal, as the day goes on here comes the soft, squishy, watery diarrhea. No blood, brownish to light brown, not losing weight (585 grams), and still active as all get out!!! The poop smells as well. I have been working with a rehabber and we have tried, no food, only Henry's and Mauzari with maybe a slice of squash and cucumber. We have tried Imodium, with no luck. I have bought Dia-Stat and give him that through a syringe, he hates it, but we manage about 6-9 CC's. He has been on .25 (point 25) of metronidazole, tomorrow will be the 7th day. I bought some Bene-bac and got it today, and started that today. I am at a loss and not sure what to do for him anymore. Any thoughts?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi HanksMom and thank you for finding The Squirrel Board!
I'm sorry that you have not yet had a response to your post. I was just on TSB and noticed it but I am at work and had to return to work responsibilities and will need to do so again now but I will return probably in a couple of hours. Others may notice your thread a my response with "bump" you post back in view! For my information when I am able to return or for others; I have some questions; 1) what is your Squirrel's name? 2) What fluids and how much of these is your Squirrel getting in addition to Dia-stat. Is he getting plain water! It is easy for a Squirrel to become dehydrated with diarrhea and they must have plain water. They can NOT be given just Pedialyte or dia-stat as their electrolytes (sodium chloride, etc) will become highly concentrated and this can cause very serious problems! 3) Are you giving the Metronidazole simply in response to the diarrhea or are you presumptively treating Giardia or Coccidia? 4) Do you have any Bactrim (trimethoprim-Sulfamethoxazole)? Do you have any Ponazuril or Totrazuril? These have been used successfully for treating Coccida as have some of the sulfa drugs. 4) Do you have access to a Squirrel-friendly Veterinarian!

I must return to work duties but will get back with you!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Thank you for your response!! To answer your questions
1. His name is Hank
2. He is still eating and drinking fine (just water) along with his Dia-Stat. He hasn’t lost his appetite at all and is still spunky as ever. His mood hasn’t changed at all in the 3 weeks we’ve been dealing with this.
3. We tried pancur first and that didn’t help, then the metronidazole (today is the 7th day) and it was started to control the diarrhea and the possibility of the Coccidea or the other. But, still hasn’t helped. We are continuing those meds for 10-14 days at .25 (point 25) twice a day.
4. I just started .3 (point 3) of SMZ today to maybe see if that helps. The smell makes me really believe we’ve been fighting Coccidea.
5. Not a squirrel friendly area at all sadly!
6. He hadn’t been losing weight at all until these past 4 days. He was 583 grams and now about 575 grams when I check this morning. Still has his blocks and veggies, eats them up.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thank you for your response!! To answer your questions
1. His name is Hank
2. He is still eating and drinking fine (just water) along with his Dia-Stat. He hasn’t lost his appetite at all and is still spunky as ever. His mood hasn’t changed at all in the 3 weeks we’ve been dealing with this.
3. We tried pancur first and that didn’t help, then the metronidazole (today is the 7th day) and it was started to control the diarrhea and the possibility of the Coccidea or the other. But, still hasn’t helped. We are continuing those meds for 10-14 days at .25 (point 25) twice a day.
4. I just started .3 (point 3) of SMZ today to maybe see if that helps. The smell makes me really believe we’ve been fighting Coccidea.
5. Not a squirrel friendly area at all sadly!
6. He hadn’t been losing weight at all until these past 4 days. He was 583 grams and now about 575 grams when I check this morning. Still has his blocks and veggies, eats them up.

Thank you HanksMom and hello Hank-Squirrel!

The facts that Hank is active, eating normally, not experiencing excessive weight loss (Hank's weight should continue to be regularly monitored, however!), and drinking both water and some extra electrolytes via Dia-Stat are all good signs. By the way, please do NOT mix Hank's plain water source with Dia-stat or anything else for that matter! His water should be pure water!

Are you or the Rehabber who is helping you familiar with and able to perform a Fecal Flotation Test? This test is relatively simple to perform if you have the necessary supplies and equipment and familiarity with what you might see under the microscope. There are also easily available published charts with photomicrographs of oocysts (parasite eggs) and intestinal parasites that can be used by novices and those very experienced with Fecal Flotation Tests as well! If Coccidia, you are most likely to see the the oocysts rather than the actual parasite as the Coccidia themselves are obligate intracellular parasites (the actual parasite lives inside the intestinal cells and not in the lumen which is the actual passageway inside the intestines). The Fecal Flotation Test is potentially very valuable in evaluating an animal with diarrhea! If you may not be familiar with the Fecal Flotation Test or able to perform it yourselves; there may be a local Veterinarian who would be willing to perform a Fecal Flotation Test for you even though there may be no Squirrel-friendly Vet in you area! By the way, a negative Fecal Flotation Test does NOT rule out the presence of parasites and submitting additional specimens following a possible negative test is worth considering! When you state that you are using ".3" of the SMZ/TMP; it is not clear if you mean means 0.3 milliliters of a particular concentration of the drug or 0.3mg of the drug itself!

As far as the doses of the medication are concerned; if you would like comments or suggestions regarding drug dosing and mixing; we do this by Private Messaging on The Squirrel Board (TSB) and not on the Open Board. This restriction is done for several important reasons. If you would like some comments about the mixing and dosing of the medications you are already using or are considering; please mention this and post the specific medication and its formulation (tablet, capsule, etc) along with its strength (such as 100mg) and one of us will send a PM to you with the mixing and dosing "specifics!" or if you just want some comments on this, we will give you those as well! We will need to know more than what you have provided for us to know how Hank's medications are being dosed currently, however! One very important and necessary variable in formulating a dosing plan is Hank's weight and you have provided that! BUT the other information needs to be clarified in that the particular formulation (tablet, capsule, powder, etc) will need to be known and the particular strength as well. For instance, Metronidazole is available for human use in 250mg and 500mg tablets. The other necessary variables to be supplied is how you may have diluted or mixed the medication (the concentration of the drug such as JUST FOR EXAMPLE, 10mg per milliliter).

Please keep on with updates on Hank!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[island rehabber]

Hanksmom, coccidia is what comes to my mind as well. Toltrazuril and Ponazuril are very effective and easy to order online. I strongly recommend. The very fact that he is otherwise healthy really sounds like cox, which won't be cured by SMZ or metro.

[hanksmom]

Thank you for responding!! He is drinking plain water from his bowl in his cave, and I mix the dia stat as directed by Henry’s. He didn’t get it yesterday, I feel like I’m stressing him out more when I have to hold him down and use the syringe, he will usually take anywhere from 6-9 cc’s. I am using the 3 ml/cc syringes. I dont have access to a microscope but have thought about purchasing one from amazon if you have recommendations! The rehabber lives further away from me and has been helping me through calls and messages. They have been amazing! This is the dosing they told me to do for him on the two meds below

Crush a 250mg metronidazole and add 2.5ml water (or a total of 2.5ml karo syrup and water to make it taste better).
Dose .25 (point two five) twice daily for ten days.

Crush one smz 400/80 to powder and add 10ml water. Dose .3 (point three) twice daily for seven days.
You can give both meds at the same time twice daily.

Bene-Bac, two hours before or after current meds are given.

If you can tell me where to by the other meds that are easily available I will order those as well!!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hanksmom, coccidia is what comes to my mind as well. Toltrazuril and Ponazuril are very effective and easy to order online. I strongly recommend. The very fact that he is otherwise healthy really sounds like cox, which won't be cured by SMZ or metro.

Just a few comments on this;

I too, would strongly recommend use of Toltrazuril or Ponazuril BUT a number of the sulfa drugs including SMZ/TMP are effective for treating coccidia! In fact the only medication that is actually "approved" for Veterinary treatment of coccidia is s sulfa drug called Albon (sulfadimethoxine)!

Toltrazuril or Ponazuril actually kill the coccidia and are called coccidiocides. SMZ/TMP and the other sulfa drugs do NOT kill the coccidia directly but interfere with one or more of their vital functions and this "weakens" the coccidia this results in the animal's own immune system being more effective at killing the coccidia! Medications that function this manner for treating coccidia are called coccidiostats. Treatment of coccidia with most sulfa drugs requires far more days of treatment and far more doses of the the medication than would be necessary if utilizing Toltrazuril or Ponazuril! HanksMom, if you have or can obtain either Toltrazuril or Ponazuril; there would be decided advantages to stopping the SMZ/TMP and starting Toltrazuril or Ponazuril! By changing therapy to utilizing Toltrazuril or Ponazuril; you would still save yourself (and Hank!) time and number dosing preparations as again, to optimize its effectiveness, the SMZ/TMP will need to be dosed for at least 14 days and preferably for 21 days!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[island rehabber]

My personal opinion is based solely on my experience rehabbing squirrels with coccidia. Thankfully it has only hit my house twice, but I will tell you that NOTHING worked except Toltrazuril. :great

[hanksmom]

We have been dealing with this for about 3-4 weeks now! His morning poops are like they should be, firm, round, but still smell. As the day progresses it turns to watery diarrhea. I have stated multiple times to others that the smell really has me believing it’s Coccidea, but I assume they want to continue to use other treatments first. I stress him out more by constantly giving him syringes of meds and dia stat and feel that makes the issue worse 🥴 He loves his mom, but he’s getting to where he’s like “umm nah lady, you have meds” lol
If you can send me links for the meds, I’m more than happy to purchase them and get them here. I want to end this for him. Especially since I’ve stated to multiple people the smell is strong. I know we have to go through every step, but I’m also going back to my vet tech days of if all the signs are there, let’s knock it out before it gets worse. The rehabber did say they would look to see if they had Albon and send it when the snow clears but bless him 4 weeks of this has been rough. Trying everything under the sun and not even touching it .

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

We have been dealing with this for about 3-4 weeks now! His morning poops are like they should be, firm, round, but still smell. As the day progresses it turns to watery diarrhea. I have stated multiple times to others that the smell really has me believing it’s Coccidea, but I assume they want to continue to use other treatments first. I stress him out more by constantly giving him syringes of meds and dia stat and feel that makes the issue worse 🥴 He loves his mom, but he’s getting to where he’s like “umm nah lady, you have meds” lol
If you can send me links for the meds, I’m more than happy to purchase them and get them here. I want to end this for him. Especially since I’ve stated to multiple people the smell is strong. I know we have to go through every step, but I’m also going back to my vet tech days of if all the signs are there, let’s knock it out before it gets worse. The rehabber did say they would look to see if they had Albon and send it when the snow clears but bless him 4 weeks of this has been rough. Trying everything under the sun and not even touching it .

Hello again HanksMom:
First off, as I mentioned in my last post; Albon is a Brand name for sulfadimethoxizine which is a sulfa drug in the same family as the SMZ/TMP you are now using! It is NOT in the same family of medications as Toltrazuril or Ponazuril! Also, as I mentioned; if you are considering a change in medication with the focus on the likely culprit for Hank's diarrhea being Coccidia; I would suggest either abandoning the Sulfa Drugs and change to Toltrazuril or Ponazuril and of those two, I would opt for Toltrazuril 5%!
There is also a 2.5% formulation of Toltrazuril but I read somewhere that the 2.5% solution was originally formulated for pigeons and can be irritating to Cat's mucus membranes so I don't use it for Squirrels either! NOTE: I have never verified this because since reading this, I have only purchased the 5% solution and this is fine with me! The 5% solution has 50mg of Toltrazuril contained in each 1ml of the solution. We can help you with dosing by Private Message! A few sources that I have used in the past are listed in order of my recency of purchases;

https://toltrazurilshop.com/products/toltrazuril-liquid-solution/

https://horseprerace.com/toltrazuril-5-240ml/

https://www.allthingsbunnies.com/Toltrazuril-5-Suspension-for-Coccidiosis-p/med132.htm

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Thank you so much for the information! So even if they send the Albon, it’s the same as what we are doing now basically?
I will Order the other so it can be heading this way. The smell of his poop to me is the main reason I believe it to be cox. It’s stout and smells horrible. He also ate dried up dirt from my husbands boots around the time this started which is another reason I believe it’s cox. Maybe he got something from it. I weighed him this morning and we are at 574 grams. Still spunky and eating and drinking.

[hanksmom]

Hello again HanksMom:
First off, as I mentioned in my last post; Albon is a Brand name for sulfadimethoxizine which is a sulfa drug in the same family as the SMZ/TMP you are now using! It is NOT in the same family of medications as Toltrazuril or Ponazuril! Also, as I mentioned; if you are considering a change in medication with the focus on the likely culprit for Hank's diarrhea being Coccidia; I would suggest either abandoning the Sulfa Drugs and change to Toltrazuril or Ponazuril and of those two, I would opt for Toltrazuril 5%!
There is also a 2.5% formulation of Toltrazuril but I read somewhere that the 2.5% solution was originally formulated for pigeons and can be irritating to Cat's mucus membranes so I don't use it for Squirrels either! NOTE: I have never verified this because since reading this, I have only purchased the 5% solution and this is fine with me! The 5% solution has 50mg of Toltrazuril contained in each 1ml of the solution. We can help you with dosing by Private Message! A few sources that I have used in the past are listed in order of my recency of purchases;

https://toltrazurilshop.com/products/toltrazuril-liquid-solution/

https://horseprerace.com/toltrazuril-5-240ml/

https://www.allthingsbunnies.com/Toltrazuril-5-Suspension-for-Coccidiosis-p/med132.htm

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I just purchased this from the first link you sent!
Toltrazuril Liquid Solution - 4oz - 120mL, 5% × 1
size:
4oz - 120mL
Strength:
5%

[Milo's Mom]

Albon, Toltrazuril, and Ponazuril are now the gold standards in squirrels for coccidia, with the latter being preferred.
Smz-tmp and metro combo is generally not used anymore when treating squirrels.
Sam is right, they treat differently...some kill some prevent multiplication and allow immune system to manage.
Also need to look at length of time and cleanliness of entire area squirrel is in...otherwise reinfecting is likely. Then theres dehydration and malnutrition and it snowballs from there.
At my clinic we use ponazuril, but it can be hard to obtain without a vet. Baycox (toltrzuril) would be easier to obtain and is next best IMHO. Then Albon.
They all work well, but I would suggest staying away from the smz-tmp/metro combo...you're just going to irritate the squirrel and frustrate yourself.

[hanksmom]

Albon, Toltrazuril, and Ponazuril are now the gold standards in squirrels for coccidia, with the latter being preferred.
Smz-tmp and metro combo is generally not used anymore when treating squirrels.
Sam is right, they treat differently...some kill some prevent multiplication and allow immune system to manage.
Also need to look at length of time and cleanliness of entire area squirrel is in...otherwise reinfecting is likely. Then theres dehydration and malnutrition and it snowballs from there.
At my clinic we use ponazuril, but it can be hard to obtain without a vet. Baycox (toltrzuril) would be easier to obtain and is next best IMHO. Then Albon.
They all work well, but I would suggest staying away from the smz-tmp/metro combo...you're just going to irritate the squirrel and frustrate yourself.

Yeah he and I are both irritated at this point! His cage is cleaned once a day and recently twice a day if he messes in it before his bedtime. Most of the time he’s out and I’m cleaning behind him. It’s been 4 weeks of this and I think we are both done with it. I did just place the order for the Toltrazuril. So it will be here hopefully in the next few days. Thankfully he’s been his crazy self, eats and drinks water. I haven’t given him anymore dia-stat bc he’s just getting frustrated with me and the syringe. It’s been too much of holding him down giving him this or that to eliminate other possibilities. He’s always been healthy even when he decided to live outside (he would come in and out) and this is the first issue we’ve ever had. I just feel in my heart it’s Coccidea bc of the awful smell. It was so bad the other night after I cleaned his cage, he went back in, was playing and all of a sudden I smelled it 🥴 But I’ve told everyone about the smell for 4 weeks. 😫

[hanksmom]

Just to show what we have been dealing with, morning poops are usually normal and then throughout the day it turns to the diarrhea

[Milo's Mom]

How old? Adults don't usually present with diarrhea with coccidia. However, with giardia they do.
Explain the odor please...sickingly sweet, death, what are some common descriptors?
Other than SMZ what other abx have you used?
When you follow him and clean please make sure you're using ammonia...its the only thing other than heat that kills coccidia. Bleach, lysol, chlorhex...they don't kill it.

[hanksmom]

How old? Adults don't usually present with diarrhea with coccidia. However, with giardia they do.
Explain the odor please...sickingly sweet, death, what are some common descriptors?
Other than SMZ what other abx have you used?
When you follow him and clean please make sure you're using ammonia...its the only thing other than heat that kills coccidia. Bleach, lysol, chlorhex...they don't kill it.

He is 3 1/2 years old. He did eat some dried mud that was on my husbands boots (he works in the log woods) at first, I thought it was the avocado, but he has not had that in over 3 1/2 weeks. I have been using Clorox wipes, But I will look into the ammonia. Do I need to dilute it with water or anything?

[hanksmom]

Also, we have tried
1. Pancur- 4days didn’t help
2. Metro- yesterday was day 7, didn’t work
3. Added SMZ yesterday along with metro.
I bought dia stat and that hasn’t helped.its just started stressing him out a lot more since I have to do the syringe. Got him bene bac as well and give him that every two hours after his medication and he started that about 2 days ago.
Before the diarrhea really started we thought we smelled a dead mouse but we did not have one, the smell was around his cage. The smell is stout, not sweet, I’d say more like decaying something, but not as strong as death smelling of that makes sense

[island rehabber]

"Coccidia smells sweet, Giardia smells like death." That's what I was taught when I started rehabbing. I wonder if giardia is what we are dealing with here.

[hanksmom]

"Coccidia smells sweet, Giardia smells like death." That's what I was taught when I started rehabbing. I wonder if giardia is what we are dealing with here.

Definitely not sweet, it’s a very stout smell. His morning poop is normal and then we head into the diarrhea throughout the day. I have Toltra 5% coming. We tried the pancur for 4 days too

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Are you or the Rehabber who is helping you familiar with and able to perform a Fecal Flotation Test? This test is relatively simple to perform if you have the necessary supplies and equipment and familiarity with what you might see under the microscope. There are also easily available published charts with photomicrographs of oocysts (parasite eggs) and intestinal parasites that can be used by novices and those very experienced with Fecal Flotation Tests as well! If Coccidia, you are most likely to see the the oocysts rather than the actual parasite as the Coccidia themselves are obligate intracellular parasites (the actual parasite lives inside the intestinal cells and not in the lumen which is the actual passageway inside the intestines). The Fecal Flotation Test is potentially very valuable in evaluating an animal with diarrhea! If you may not be familiar with the Fecal Flotation Test or able to perform it yourselves; there may be a local Veterinarian who would be willing to perform a Fecal Flotation Test for you even though there may be no Squirrel-friendly Vet in you area! By the way, a negative Fecal Flotation Test does NOT rule out the presence of parasites and submitting additional specimens following a possible negative test is worth considering!

Hello again HanksMom:
I just wanted make certain that you saw my suggestion for having at least one Fecal Flotation Test performed (and several more if the first does not reveal anything definitively diagnostic). This relatively simple test is considered by most Veterinarians (and Rehabbers) to be an essential component in evaluating cases of diarrhea! Again, as I mentioned; even if there is no "Squirrel-Vet" to see Hank; a local Veterinarian may nevertheless, be willing to perform the Fecal Flotation Test for you without actually examining Hank! You would just need to bring a stool specimen to the Vet's office.

Please keep on with updates about Hank!
When are you expecting the Toltrazuril? I will be glad to provide dosing recommendations for you (and will let you know the well accepted Exotic Animal Formulary from which I base my dosing protocol) or others here will be able to provide dosing instructions for you. A repeat weight just prior to initiating the Totrazuril would also be be ideal!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Hello again HanksMom:
I just wanted make certain that you saw my suggestion for having at least one Fecal Flotation Test performed (and several more if the first does not reveal anything definitively diagnostic). This relatively simple test is considered by most Veterinarians (and Rehabbers) to be an essential component in evaluating cases of diarrhea! Again, as I mentioned; even if there is no "Squirrel-Vet" to see Hank; a local Veterinarian may nevertheless, be willing to perform the Fecal Flotation Test for you without actually examining Hank! You would just need to bring a stool specimen to the Vet's office.

Please keep on with updates about Hank!
When are you expecting the Toltrazuril? I will be glad to provide dosing recommendations for you (and will let you know the well accepted Exotic Animal Formulary from which I base my dosing protocol) or others here will be able to provide dosing instructions for you. A repeat weight just prior to initiating the Totrazuril would also be be ideal!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel


I guess I can call some vets and see if they would preform a frack if I bring it in, they will ask questions and this is not a squirrel friendly state sadly. I’ve been wanting to get things needed to do my own at home if someone could direct me to that as well. The Toltrazuril I ordered yesterday so hopefully Tuesday or Wednesday

[Milo's Mom]

I'm thinking giardia as well but panacur should have addressed. I've seen coccidia get stinky bad so I'd like to see the toltrazuril administered.
A fecal would be amazing!! If close to me I may be able to assist.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I guess I can call some vets and see if they would preform a frack if I bring it in, they will ask questions and this is not a squirrel friendly state sadly. I’ve been wanting to get things needed to do my own at home if someone could direct me to that as well. The Toltrazuril I ordered yesterday so hopefully Tuesday or Wednesday

Yes, you would need to ensure that the Vet would simply perform the Fecal Flotation Test and you would pay cash and "no other questions" asked including the providing of any identifying information! It's too bad things may be that bad and they really may not be so the particular Vet clinic you select; but take no chances! If it would be possible, perhaps you could coordinate a FFT with Milo's Mom as she has so kindly suggested! At best, this test can clinch a diagnosis but this is not always the case but nevertheless; it is always worth performing a FFT with cases of diarrhea if at all possible! The important guiding principle is that Hank must always be protected from those who might be inclined to interfere with your relationship with him or remove him from your care!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

I'm thinking giardia as well but panacur should have addressed. I've seen coccidia get stinky bad so I'd like to see the toltrazuril administered.
A fecal would be amazing!! If close to me I may be able to assist.

We did pancur for 4 days and it didn’t help. I’m thinking I’m too far away from anyone that rehabs 😫 I wish you was close, I would’ve had you here 4 weeks ago! I’m hoping the toltrazuril will be here soon!! I’m thinking I can take the sample and say it’s one of my chickens 🤔😂

[hanksmom]

Yes, you would need to ensure that the Vet would simply perform the Fecal Flotation Test and you would pay cash and "no other questions" asked including the providing of any identifying information! It's too bad things may be that bad and they really may not be so the particular Vet clinic you select; but take no chances! If it would be possible, perhaps you could coordinate a FFT with Milo's Mom as she has so kindly suggested! At best, this test can clinch a diagnosis but this is not always the case but nevertheless; it is always worth performing a FFT with cases of diarrhea if at all possible! The important guiding principle is that Hank must always be protected from those who might be inclined to interfere with your relationship with him or remove him from your care!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Yes, where I live, they will euthanize him. Even though he’s been out before and chooses not to now, of course he has the chance to go back out and has for two years, but has no interest in doing so right now, he’s got it made 😂 I worked with a vet years ago, he retired and has started doing things part time now but at a clinic he doesn’t own. They would have a lot of questions, but I’ve thought about saying it’s one for my chickens?

[TomahawkFlyers]

Do you think the retired vet would have room in his heart for a house call?


Yes, where I live, they will euthanize him. Even though he’s been out before and chooses not to now, of course he has the chance to go back out and has for two years, but has no interest in doing so right now, he’s got it made 😂 I worked with a vet years ago, he retired and has started doing things part time now but at a clinic he doesn’t own. They would have a lot of questions, but I’ve thought about saying it’s one for my chickens?

[hanksmom]

Do you think the retired vet would have room in his heart for a house call?

I think if I took a sample to him, he would definitely check it out if he had his own place, but since he is part time now at another vets place, I don’t think he would chance it for myself or him.

[Milo's Mom]

We did pancur for 4 days and it didn’t help. I’m thinking I’m too far away from anyone that rehabs 😫 I wish you was close, I would’ve had you here 4 weeks ago! I’m hoping the toltrazuril will be here soon!! I’m thinking I can take the sample and say it’s one of my chickens 🤔😂

I wouldn't say chicken. Stay with a mammal. Pet rat that you rescued from hoarding situation that now has social anxiety.
It's not appropriate to keep throwing drugs at something this far out, with the toltrzuril being the last. You may need to drive to a vet that will help. Or contact one elsewhere and ask to overnight a sample to them for testing. You know, mail order poop!

[hanksmom]

I wouldn't say chicken. Stay with a mammal. Pet rat that you rescued from hoarding situation that now has social anxiety.
It's not appropriate to keep throwing drugs at something this far out, with the toltrzuril being the last. You may need to drive to a vet that will help. Or contact one elsewhere and ask to overnight a sample to them for testing. You know, mail order poop!

I’ll call one in the morning and see if they will test it for me. Should I get the first morning poop? It’s usually normal then goes to the soft and then diarrhea. I don’t care to mail it off either! I agree, I’m sure Hank is tired of all these different meds and the weeks of trying to figure something out to fix it. He’s still active and goofy as ever so I’m thankful for that! My order has been processed for the toltrzuril and being shipped.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I’ll call one in the morning and see if they will test it for me. Should I get the first morning poop? It’s usually normal then goes to the soft and then diarrhea.

Hello again HanksMom:
Thanks for this question because the answer is not what most people would expect and the answer will have a bearing on the likelihood of a specimen yielding diagnostic evidence! Shedding of the oocysts (These are essentially thick walled microscopic structures that contains a nucleus that will eventually divide in certain ways depending on the specific species of coccidia. In a sense, the oocyst can be thought of as a coccidia egg) into the intestinal lumen is NOT correlated with the occurrence of diarrhea or loose stool and if there can be choice in specimens; a firmer more bulkier stool specimen is far more likely to contain more oocysts than a specimen that is loose, soft and diluted by water! It is far better to submit a bulkier specimen for the FFT and NOT soft, watery stool if at all possible!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Hello again HanksMom:
Thanks for this question because the answer is not what most people would expect and the answer will have a bearing on the likelihood of a specimen yielding diagnostic evidence! Shedding of the oocysts (These are essentially thick walled microscopic structures that contains a nucleus that will eventually divide in certain ways depending on the specific species of coccidia. In a sense, the oocyst can be thought of as a coccidia egg) into the intestinal lumen is NOT correlated with the occurrence of diarrhea or loose stool and if there can be choice in specimens; a firmer more bulkier stool specimen is far more likely to contain more oocysts than a specimen that is loose, soft and diluted by water! It is far better to submit a bulkier specimen for the FFT and NOT soft, watery stool if at all possible!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Thank you for letting me know! I will collect his morning poop since it’s always the most normal and firmer!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hello again HanksMom:
Thanks for this question because the answer is not what most people would expect and the answer will have a bearing on the likelihood of a specimen yielding diagnostic evidence! Shedding of the oocysts (These are essentially thick walled microscopic structures that contains a nucleus that will eventually divide in certain ways depending on the specific species of coccidia. In a sense, the oocyst can be thought of as a coccidia egg) into the intestinal lumen is NOT correlated with the occurrence of diarrhea or loose stool and if there can be choice in specimens; a firmer more bulkier stool specimen is far more likely to contain more oocysts than a specimen that is loose, soft and diluted by water! It is far better to submit a bulkier specimen for the FFT and NOT soft, watery stool if at all possible!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I just realized that I had better clarify this as this is NOT a general rule! For instance IF one was looking for motile protozoa or possibly bacteria; a watery specimen may have an advantage as these two "objects" are associated more with the inner lining of the intestine and a watery specimen may tend to "wash them out" and result in a better yield BUT for finding oocysts, a bulkier stool specimen would be best as they are found most often within the feces!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

I wouldn't say chicken. Stay with a mammal. Pet rat that you rescued from hoarding situation that now has social anxiety.
It's not appropriate to keep throwing drugs at something this far out, with the toltrzuril being the last. You may need to drive to a vet that will help. Or contact one elsewhere and ask to overnight a sample to them for testing. You know, mail order poop!

Update! I have taken his specimen to a vet this morning! Should have results in the morning!!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Update! I have taken his specimen to a vet this morning! Should have results in the morning!!

Great news!! Please remember that a diagnosis made from a FFT is only possible IF the diagnostic elements are visualized under the microscope! In the case of coccidiosis, for example, presence of the coccidial oocysts would clinch the diagnosis! BUT, the opposite, which would be the absence of the oocysts does NOT rule-out coccidiosis (again using coccidia as an example) as oocysts are NOT necessarily seen in every tested stool specimen! Nevertheless, I'm very glad that you have arranged this test and please let us know what the Vet found. Maybe they will even take photos but it's enough that the test will be performed!
How is Hank doing this morning?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Great news!! Please remember that a diagnosis made from a FFT is only possible IF the diagnostic elements are visualized under the microscope! In the case of coccidiosis, for example, presence of the coccidial oocysts would clinch the diagnosis! BUT, the opposite, which would be the absence of the oocysts does NOT rule-out coccidiosis (again using coccidia as an example) as oocysts are NOT necessarily seen in every tested stool specimen! Nevertheless, I'm very glad that you have arranged this test and please let us know what the Vet found. Maybe they will even take photos but it's enough that the test will be performed!
How is Hank doing this morning?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

They are sending it off to a lab, and asked what all I wanted it checked for, so I said everything!!
Hank is great! Still being himself, eating and drinking as normal. Runs passed me and karate kicks me every chance he can lol

[hanksmom]

Great news!! Please remember that a diagnosis made from a FFT is only possible IF the diagnostic elements are visualized under the microscope! In the case of coccidiosis, for example, presence of the coccidial oocysts would clinch the diagnosis! BUT, the opposite, which would be the absence of the oocysts does NOT rule-out coccidiosis (again using coccidia as an example) as oocysts are NOT necessarily seen in every tested stool specimen! Nevertheless, I'm very glad that you have arranged this test and please let us know what the Vet found. Maybe they will even take photos but it's enough that the test will be performed!
How is Hank doing this morning?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

They said they should have results back in the morning and will call as soon as they get them!

[hanksmom]

I wouldn't say chicken. Stay with a mammal. Pet rat that you rescued from hoarding situation that now has social anxiety.
It's not appropriate to keep throwing drugs at something this far out, with the toltrzuril being the last. You may need to drive to a vet that will help. Or contact one elsewhere and ask to overnight a sample to them for testing. You know, mail order poop!


Would you know the best way to clean? I’m getting a lot of different ways. His linens are cleaned at least twice a day, And I washed his bowls with antibacterial soap and hot water, and been using Clorox wipes. Just to be on the safe side I have also steamed my floors, but was wondering if I should get a steamer to steam his cage?

[TomahawkFlyers]

A thought - and you'll not know unless you ask - do they seem friendly enough to maybe dispense the right meds without your having to bring in your rodent/mammal? Not the squirrel, of course, because you don't have one.

Cleaning. Any stuff on Hank is undoubtedly thick/crusted over and maybe matted in his fur. If this is the case, I'd suggest a nice warm soak with you holding him under his armpits. Follow that with a wash with baby shampoo followed by a warm rinse and a towel dry. Keep him warm so he dries thoroughly.

For our kids' linens, before we go to bed, we start with a tub of hot water with a cup of Oxiclean in it. We let the linens soak overnight and then wash them on Heavy Duty in the morning with fragrance-free laundry pods. We tried SaniCycle once. It did not end well for the linens. After all the kids' linen is clean, we run a SaniCycle on an empty washer with some bleach and we've been satisfied that no organism has survived.

Again, we're all rooting for you guys.

Jamie

By the way, this is the real deal for sanitizing cages, bowls, and hard surfaces. I've never used it on fabric or highly porous surfaces. It is concentrated. Dilute according to directions. WEAR NITRILE GLOVES. I cannot, for the life of me, remember how I know that last part ;-) https://www.amazon.com/F10SC-Veterinary-Disinfectant-F10-SC/dp/B00DR25TSG?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=AZ3IOW8ZC7Q2O&gPromoCode=sns_us_en_5_2023Q4&gQT=1&th=1

[hanksmom]

A thought - and you'll not know unless you ask - do they seem friendly enough to maybe dispense the right meds without your having to bring in your rodent/mammal? Not the squirrel, of course, because you don't have one.

Cleaning. Any stuff on Hank is undoubtedly thick/crusted over and maybe matted in his fur. If this is the case, I'd suggest a nice warm soak with you holding him under his armpits. Follow that with a wash with baby shampoo followed by a warm rinse and a towel dry. Keep him warm so he dries thoroughly.

For our kids' linens, before we go to bed, we start with a tub of hot water with a cup of Oxiclean in it. We let the linens soak overnight and then wash them on Heavy Duty in the morning with fragrance-free laundry pods. We tried SaniCycle once. It did not end well for the linens. After all the kids' linen is clean, we run a SaniCycle on an empty washer with some bleach and we've been satisfied that no organism has survived.

Again, we're all rooting for you guys.

Jamie

By the way, this is the real deal for sanitizing cages, bowls, and hard surfaces. I've never used it on fabric or highly porous surfaces. It is concentrated. Dilute according to directions. WEAR NITRILE GLOVES. I cannot, for the life of me, remember how I know that last part ;-) https://www.amazon.com/F10SC-Veterinary-Disinfectant-F10-SC/dp/B00DR25TSG?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=AZ3IOW8ZC7Q2O&gPromoCode=sns_us_en_5_2023Q4&gQT=1&th=1

Thank you, thank you!! I usually wash his linens in hot water, in the washer. I’m going to add the oxiclean! I use gain and hot water, I have for years because I was told to never changed it bc he would be sensitive to anything else. I would love to go to a non chemical detergent if I could 🥴

I read about steam chilling a lot of things and thought about the hand held steamers 🤔 I’m worried about using ammonia, bc of the smell and afraid it would hurt his little lungs. I have seen f10 and wondered about that! I’m going to look into it again!!!

[TomahawkFlyers]

Excellent! Unless you like swollen, prune-like fingers, don't forget the gloves. Two pair, one over the other, is how I use the disinfectant.

Jamie

[hanksmom]

Excellent! Unless you like swollen, prune-like fingers, don't forget the gloves. Two pair, one over the other, is how I use the disinfectant.

Jamie

Thank you for the tip! Definitely don’t like the prune like fingers! lol!

[hanksmom]

Thank you for the tip! Definitely don’t like the prune like fingers! lol!



UPDATE TEST RESULTS ARE NEGATIVE

[hanksmom]

I'm thinking giardia as well but panacur should have addressed. I've seen coccidia get stinky bad so I'd like to see the toltrazuril administered.
A fecal would be amazing!! If close to me I may be able to assist.


Update on fecal- NEGATIVE

[hanksmom]

Yes, you would need to ensure that the Vet would simply perform the Fecal Flotation Test and you would pay cash and "no other questions" asked including the providing of any identifying information! It's too bad things may be that bad and they really may not be so the particular Vet clinic you select; but take no chances! If it would be possible, perhaps you could coordinate a FFT with Milo's Mom as she has so kindly suggested! At best, this test can clinch a diagnosis but this is not always the case but nevertheless; it is always worth performing a FFT with cases of diarrhea if at all possible! The important guiding principle is that Hank must always be protected from those who might be inclined to interfere with your relationship with him or remove him from your care!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

I added the fecal results, they were negative

[TomahawkFlyers]

Well, while frustrating, this is actually good news. It will be interesting to see where the rehabbers go next. The pattern is: Morning, before eating, solid stool/no smell? Afternoon, as breakfast finishes digesting and makes it out as fecal matter, loose stool/bad smell? Continued eating through the day and every stool is loose/bad smell? Sleeps through the night (no food intake) and then solid stool in the morning.

To our rehabbers: What other parasite or condition can cause this? What is happening overnight that results in a morning solid stool? Absence of additional food?

To you: Can you keep a log over a few days indicating exactly what, when, and how much is fed? Same thing for liquids.' We'll figure this out.

Jamie

[hanksmom]

Well, while frustrating, this is actually good news. It will be interesting to see where the rehabbers go next. The pattern is: Morning, before eating, solid stool/no smell? Afternoon, as breakfast finishes digesting and makes it out as fecal matter, loose stool/bad smell? Continued eating through the day and every stool is loose/bad smell? Sleeps through the night (no food intake) and then solid stool in the morning.

To our rehabbers: What other parasite or condition can cause this? What is happening overnight that results in a morning solid stool? Absence of additional food?

To you: Can you keep a log over a few days indicating exactly what, when, and how much is fed? Same thing for liquids.' We'll figure this out.

Jamie


All of his stool has the same foul odor, morning and through the day.
Food is handful of lettuce int the morning and then at night, 2 Henrys blocks, one in the morning and one at night, Maurzi blocks (usually free fed but usually throw in about 3-6 for the whole day and night (he does not care for it much) slice of squash every other day, cucumber same way. I know they mentioned it could come back as negative, but I am interested to see if there is anything else it could be. I am still waiting for my toltrazuril to be shipped, still just showing label created

[TomahawkFlyers]

OK. If you're willing to experiment, what would you think about temporarily eliminating EVERYTHING from Hank's diet except Henry's Blocks. If that does the trick, you can, each week, add back one thing at a time until the problem returns. If it is dietary, you will then have your culprit.

He's eating only a Henry's block at night, and waking up with solid stool. This is interesting.

Jamie

[hanksmom]

OK. If you're willing to experiment, what would you think about temporarily eliminating EVERYTHING from Hank's diet except Henry's Blocks. If that does the trick, you can, each week, add back one thing at a time until the problem returns. If it is dietary, you will then have your culprit.

He's eating only a Henry's block at night, and waking up with solid stool. This is interesting.

Jamie

He gets his block in the morning and one at night. He has his greens, but usually just his blocks he’s interested in. I can take everything away and give him a block in the morning and one at night, I’ll try anything at this point! And yes, his stool is firm and as it should be in the morning, then once all of that has passed through, then it turns soft and diarrhea. Would that still cause the horrible stool smell?

[TomahawkFlyers]

It depends on what residual supplemental food is left in his system. We humans eat certain foods that cause all sorts if "interesting" smells as they leave our bodies. Something might affect one person one way and have no effect on another. I',m proceeding one the hypothesis that 1) negative lab results 2) Hank might be eating something that at this moment in time just doesn't agree with him; or, the combination of two or more foods is causing a negative reaction.

With no supplemental food, he'll need maybe 2 blocks in the morning and two at night. He is drinking only water, correct? If tap water, it is the same that you drink and no human in your household is having gastric issues? Sorry to be picky - really just trying to help you find this needle in a haystack.

Jamie

[Milo's Mom]

To our rehabbers: What other parasite or condition can cause this? What is happening overnight that results in a morning solid stool? Absence of additional food?



undigested food will have an odor that isn't pleasant

coccidia
giardia
e-coli (it is probably not this - squirrels are near dead with very high fevers when suffering e-coli)
some worm loads
allergy
diuretic (lettuce is, especially romaine)

poop is solid in morning due to fasting while sleeping. it gives the GI system time to calm down and slow down.

[hanksmom]

It depends on what residual supplemental food is left in his system. We humans eat certain foods that cause all sorts if "interesting" smells as they leave our bodies. Something might affect one person one way and have no effect on another. I',m proceeding one the hypothesis that 1) negative lab results 2) Hank might be eating something that at this moment in time just doesn't agree with him; or, the combination of two or more foods is causing a negative reaction.

With no supplemental food, he'll need maybe 2 blocks in the morning and two at night. He is drinking only water, correct? If tap water, it is the same that you drink and no human in your household is having gastric issues? Sorry to be picky - really just trying to help you find this needle in a haystack.

Jamie

You are all amazing and helping me more than you realize!!! He does only drink water, but I’ve always gave bottled water because our tap water, I won’t even drink! I am going to get some filters for the faucets though, bc bottled water is gone through so much here.

So giving 4 Henry’s is okay? I was always told two and that’s it. But I guess it would make sense if that’s all he gets, I will do that starting in the morning and we can see! I’m willing to try anything bc I know he is over it too!

[hanksmom]

undigested food will have an odor that isn't pleasant

coccidia
giardia
e-coli (it is probably not this - squirrels are near dead with very high fevers when suffering e-coli)
some worm loads
allergy
diuretic (lettuce is, especially romaine)

poop is solid in morning due to fasting while sleeping. it gives the GI system time to calm down and slow down.

He’s still energetic and wants to run everywhere. Still decent weight. We got in 18 cc’s of dia-stat today. Gave him his bene-bac as well. He did eat romaine mix when this started (he’s had it before) no issues. Changed to the iceberg mix last week. I can take it all aaay and give the 4 Henry's, Bene-Bac, Dia-stat, and the two meds the rehabber said to take, until the other gets here that hasn’t shipped yet! Hoping it gets here soon. I still have pan-cur as well if I should start that again?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

He’s still energetic and wants to run everywhere. Still decent weight. We got in 18 cc’s of dia-stat today. Gave him his bene-bac as well. He did eat romaine mix when this started (he’s had it before) no issues. Changed to the iceberg mix last week. I can take it all aaay and give the 4 Henry's, Bene-Bac, Dia-stat, and the two meds the rehabber said to take, until the other gets here that hasn’t shipped yet! Hoping it gets here soon. I still have pan-cur as well if I should start that again?

Hello HanksMom:
I am at work but just noticed what has transpired on Hank's Thread. I do NOT mean any disrespect and I don't mean to imply that my opinions are the "final word;" but I would like give my opinions about use Henry's Blocks and also discuss the negative FFT!
Number One; Henry's Healthy Blocks (HHBs) are formulated as a relatively highly concentrated and very well balanced source of nutrition! Only two HHBs will actually supply ALL of Hank's daily nutritional requirements. Often for a larger Squirrel and Hank's weight of somewhat over 500 Grams may very well put him in the size range that one additional HHB (a Total of 3 HHBs) will be ok and without significant risk! BUT I would nevertheless, suggest NOT using more than three at the very most! The exception would be if Hank is not consuming two full HHBs (or 3 at the most) and you could accurately estimate or weigh the shredded remains and give extra comparable size portions of HHBs to compensate for what would be going to waste! TWO HHBs contain the FULL Elemental Calcium recommended by the Nutrient Requirements for Laboratory Animals (the Rat Section) with which Henry's bases their formulation (and I did too, when I was making my own Blocks from scratch). TWO HHBs also contain a the high end but in the "ballpark" amount of Vitamin D, as well! High Vitamin D and plenty of Calcium also has some risks and Henry's unlike Teklad and Mazuri Blocks are NOT designed to be free-fed (giving the Squirrel as much as the Squirrel might want)! It is a common belief that calcium can safely be given until the development of whitish stool is noticed and then you just cut back on the Calcium. This really is NOT true and while seeing calcium containing white stool certainly indicates that not all of the Calcium that was provided in the diet has been absorbed; it is NOT a mechanism that can be relied upon to regulate calcium absorption! There can be excessive absorption and increased utilization of Calcium if there is excessive Calcium is provided in the diet especially with plenty of Vitamin D also being available. I would recommend that while we know that Squirrels and many other animals certainly require a "goodly" amount of Calcium and there is truly a fairly wide "cushion" range of extra Calcium that can be given daily; I just would suggest that in particular; all daily Elemental Calcium and Vitamin D (and phosphorus as well) be optimal for daily Maintenance and while some extra is ok, when there is a need for providing Supplemental Calcium such as with MBD; that this too should be calculated based upon the size of the Squirrel!

Another option to adding a fourth HHB (and again, I would NOT recommend a fourth HHB); would be to add quality Blocks that can be free-fed such as Teklad 2018 or Mazuri Rat and Mouse Diet! Well, enough said. Again, no disrespect was meant and I just wanted to post my opinions!

In regard to a single Negative FFT; yes this might in a sense be reassuring but the "bottom line" of this test is that these tests are useful only if Positive and a single Negative FFT does NOT rule out the presence of gut parasites. MULTIPLE Negative FFT, each with new, fresh specimens and with both liquid and solid if there are variations in consistency will better serve to suggest that there is truly no parasite load!

I am NOT necessarily suggesting additional FFTs; only that there may still be parasites even with the Negative test. The use of Panacur and Metronidazole should have at least significantly impacted Giardia so I would like to humbly suggest that when the Toltrazuril arrives and assuming that Hank's gut problems have not resolved; that you also dose that Toltrazuril. Also along the lines of having already tried several different treatments including Panacur, metronidazole and SMZ/TMP, that you stop these and normal gut bacteria have been affected by this and the residual diarrhea may in part or totally be secondary to this. Also, in line with this thought process would be my suggestion to continue the Bene-Bac as this may help with improving or normalizing the gut bacteria!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[hanksmom]

Just an update:

I did NOT give Hank his meds last night or this morning (metronidazole 250mg and SMZ 400/80mg). I am going to stop them as of now, to see if that has been part of his issue with the continuing diarrhea. I am going to try the 2-3 Henry's a day and the Mazuri (free feed), along with his Bene-Bac probiotic twice a day, in hopes this restores his little gut from the almost 2-3 weeks of constant meds. I will occasionally give Dia-Stat if he is interested in it. His Toltrazuri, says it will be here Saturday. If we are still dealing with the diarrhea/smell, then I will update for dosing!! Thank you all so much for the amazing care, support and love you guys are showing me and my little bestie, Hank!!!