fur color changes nutrition advice please

[fosteringjasper]

Hi, starting new thread, I did not get a response from my last post under different thread but this is a different question too. Jasper is now 13 weeks. He is still chooses to drink FV anywhere from 30-40 cc per day. I can only get him to eat up to 3/4 of a HHB block. Couple weeks ago called Henry's and was told young squirrel ok to get one block then they go up to 2. So at what age are they suppose to be eating 2 blocks? At what ages are they still considered infants, then juveniles, and when are they considered to reach adult size? At his age, he is a southern gray squirrel how much should he weigh? Last weight yesterday was about 340 grams but he does move alot as I am trying to get it. He looks good to me, but like I said in my last post I am really trying to make sure I do things correctly this time. The only other squirrel I've ever taken care of was 18 years ago. Another thing I notice two days is that his fur on the inside of his legs, inner thigh area has gotten darker. It is not white anymore it's like a very light rusty brown color. It is not urine, he is very clean and it is not next to his penis either, it's around the inside leg folds. Is this normal? Is it something nutrition wise he is lacking or getting too much of? I just don't remember observing this 18 years ago but of course maybe I just don't remember. Thank you again

[Tashahaven]

By his age he should be eating 2 blocks, but the fact that he takes formula still is GREAT. It is loaded with vitamins and calcium he needs. Continue giving it to him as long as he is willing to take it! The longer they will take it in any amount, the better!

However the main reason a squirrel won’t eat blocks, is because they are offered other foods as well, ESPECIALLY if you have given or are giving him ANY NUTS! It’s like giving a child cotton candy and then expecting them to eat broccoli. Nuts are ONLY a treat, and should only ever be given to them as a treat, and ONLY after they are consistently eating their blocks AND other healthy veggies from Henry’s squirrel food pyramid! Most rehabbers don’t give ANY nuts at all until the squirrel is outside in the release cage during the soft release process.

If they taste nuts first, or even if they are given other foods (like avocado, or fruits) they will refuse the blocks and “hold out” for the other foods instead.

If this is the case, you must stop all other foods now! It will take time, but you MUST stay strong and stick to your guns! You cannot give in. Doing so will only make it harder and harder to reverse, and could potentially result in painful, and life threatening MBD later on. HHBs need to be the first solid foods they are offered and/or are ACTUALLY eating before introducing ANY other foods. Even after they are eating them enthusiastically, nuts should still be ONLY an occasional treat!

It will take time, but you must refrain from anything other than blocks and formula. He WILL eat them. They also do have a small amount of nuts in them for taste, but are balanced with adequate calcium and other vitamins to counteract them. He may pout, but you must go this route of “tough love” for his health and safety. He will NOT starve himself. Eventually he will eat them!

As for the fur…can you provide some photos so we have a better idea of what it is you are referring to or worried about? What type of squirrel is he?

[fosteringjasper]

He is a southern gray squirrel aprx 340 grams yesterday. Is this normal weight for 13 weeks? Here's some photos326081326082

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi, starting new thread, I did not get a response from my last post under different thread but this is a different question too. Jasper is now 13 weeks. He is still chooses to drink FV anywhere from 30-40 cc per day. I can only get him to eat up to 3/4 of a HHB block. Couple weeks ago called Henry's and was told young squirrel ok to get one block then they go up to 2. So at what age are they suppose to be eating 2 blocks? At what ages are they still considered infants, then juveniles, and when are they considered to reach adult size? At his age, he is a southern gray squirrel how much should he weigh? Last weight yesterday was about 340 grams but he does move alot as I am trying to get it. He looks good to me, but like I said in my last post I am really trying to make sure I do things correctly this time. The only other squirrel I've ever taken care of was 18 years ago. Another thing I notice two days is that his fur on the inside of his legs, inner thigh area has gotten darker. It is not white anymore it's like a very light rusty brown color. It is not urine, he is very clean and it is not next to his penis either, it's around the inside leg folds. Is this normal? Is it something nutrition wise he is lacking or getting too much of? I just don't remember observing this 18 years ago but of course maybe I just don't remember. Thank you again

Hi FosteringJasper:
First of all, I want to apologize for not responding to your last post in your old thread, especially since your were responding in part to my question about Jasper's current status! I did read your post at that time and appreciated your thoughtfulness in asking about Sammy! I was at work when I read it, though and wanted to respond at length to you about your other comments and concerns about the rehabber with initials CS! I was mulling over sending a PM to you about this and as it came to pass, when I got back home from work, I simply did not follow-up on this. Sorry! I know that you had some very valid concerns and your were also kind to ask about Sammy and I just let it escape what little mind I have. Again, I apologize! I will go back to your old thread either tomorrow evening or Friday as I will actually have a rare 48 hours without any work responsibilities and I will post a response then but I will also send a PM to you about CS and her long ago advice to you. What you did then saved your Squirrel's life and enabled him to have a long life surrounded by your love! You did what was an extremely difficult thing to do but it was the right thing to do and through this final act of great love toward your Squirrel; you could freed him from needless suffering as he was permitted to scamper across the Rainbow Bridge still embraced by your act of loving kindness! I am sorry that you are still haunted by that memory but I can certainly understand why!

Getting back to your current concerns about Jasper in this thread....Jasper's weight at 13 weeks is just fine! He is still young and growing. Probably a fairly accurate weight range for a fully grown Gray Squirrel would be 400-600 Grams. Jasper is getting there and he looks very healthy! Your are doing a fine job with his care! Also, I agree with all that Tasha Haven has posted in this thread!

I see the slight change in the shade of the fur on Jasper's inner thighs and abdomen and I believe this is simply a normal variation of fur color. I have seen similar in many other Squirrels! I do NOT feel this has anything to do with nutrition, illness, his care or any factor beyond genetics! I believe that Jasper is doing well!

I do wish I could give you peace FosteringJasper especially as it relates to your questions about the amazing and loving relationship relationship you had with your other Squirrel that began 18 years ago! You did fine for that little Squirrel too!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[fosteringjasper]

So I am trying very hard to be strict with Jasper and make sure he eats his blocks before I give him other foods. Well, I do believe he rather starve himself. He's lost 7 grams in the last few days. If he won't even finish one whole HHB, how can I expect him to eat 2? But yes I am giving him two. I do have the teklad 2018 and he nibbles on it a bit but then puts it away. If I try to make a booball with the teklad how much calcium would I have to add to it to meet his needs? Because I just don't see him ever taking the 50 grams of rodent block he would need in lieu of the 2 HHB. I weighed out 50g of the plain teklad and their all varying sizes but it was about 10 pieces that made the 50g weight. This is so nerve racking. I do not want any negative repercussions on his health and wellbeing due to my own shortcomings as his caregiver.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

So I am trying very hard to be strict with Jasper and make sure he eats his blocks before I give him other foods. Well, I do believe he rather starve himself. He's lost 7 grams in the last few days. If he won't even finish one whole HHB, how can I expect him to eat 2? But yes I am giving him two. I do have the teklad 2018 and he nibbles on it a bit but then puts it away. If I try to make a booball with the teklad how much calcium would I have to add to it to meet his needs? Because I just don't see him ever taking the 50 grams of rodent block he would need in lieu of the 2 HHB. I weighed out 50g of the plain teklad and their all varying sizes but it was about 10 pieces that made the 50g weight. This is so nerve racking. I do not want any negative repercussions on his health and wellbeing due to my own shortcomings as his caregiver.

Thanks FosteringJasper:
What other components are there in Jasper's diet beside the blocks such as vegetable, fruits, nuts or whatever and how much of this "other stuff" is he getting? Also, the "50 Grams" of Teklad Blocks is not really a requirement but an approximation. Let's try to get a more accurate estimate of the Elemental Calcium that is available with some different amounts of Teklad and for let's also just for this discussion, use the Calcium content of two Henry's Healthy Blocks (HHBs) be the daily dietary goal.

So, for the HHBs, two blocks weighing a total of 10 Grams contains 275mg (this is the same as 0.275 Grams) of Elemental Calcium. How much in Grams of Teklad 2018 Blocks would be necessary for Jasper to eat to get the same amount of Elemental Calcium as in two HHBs? The math would be set up by recognizing that Teklad 2018 contain 1% Elemental Calcium. To get 0.275 Grams of Calcium from the Teklad Blocks, Jasper would need to eat 27.5 Grams of the Teklad Blocks. I have weighed them and there is considerable variation between the blocks but this would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 blocks. Jasper is not an adult and he will not eat as much as an adult. The guidelines that Henry's uses and I use when I made blocks and now when I "sort of" make them are contained in The article entitled Nutritional Requirements for Laboratory Animals and it doesn't even list Squirrels, it lists Rats and that is what is used.

Interestingly, this number is not based upon the weight of the Squirrel (Rats in the guide) but is a percentage of the weight of the diet! This is 5 Grams of Elemental Calcium per Kilogram of food. It's not really a very intuitive method and is based upon what is considered optimal based upon evidence and much expert opinion to adequate nutritional intake for any size Squirrel (Rat in the Guide, of course) that is eating ONLY the blocks and has an "average" appetite for its size! Wow! Yes, there is quite a bit of "wiggle room" and this is why it helps to transition a weaning Squirrel to quality blocks (whatever brand or brands) before any other component of the Henry's Dietary Pyramid is used and nut are treats and even when the Blocks are being consumed regularly and readily; nuts should only be given rarely or even never!

When I make my Blocks, I simply add extra Calcium so that the total calcium content is still 1% as it would be if only the Teklad Blocks were eaten instead of blocks that that contain Teklad but have other dietary components added to it.

It is also essential that you know that the Calcium that is in the Guideline and the Calcium that is listed on the HHBs label is ELEMENTAL Calcium. Calcium Carbonate contains 40% Elemental Calcium so just for illustration purposes, 100 Mg of Calcium Carbonate contains on 40 mg of Elemental Calcium. Also of note, however is that of the usual calcium supplements, Calcium Carbonate contains the highest percentage of Elemental Calcium. Calcium Citrate, as an example contains far less (21%) so you would need nearly twice as much Calcium Citrate to yield the same Elemental Calcium as Calcium Carbonate.

Please, don't panic about this! This is just the basics and in most cases, nutritional support of Squirrels can be supplied quite easily and safely and will prevent Metabolic Bone Disease if you feed your Squirrel HHBs and/or a Blocks such as Teklad 2018, Mazury Rat & Mouse Diet or Oxbow Rodent Food!

Again, please list all of Jasper's dietary components including blocks, formula if any and the amount or number of any other "stuff" that is given each day such as particular vegetables, fruits or nuts.

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[fosteringjasper]

Thank you. As I said in previous posts, I am following Henry's diet pyramid. He still chooses to accept 30-40 ml of formula per day. Should I try to give him the blocks prior to the formula? I always do the formula then the block (one in the AM and now also one in the PM) and give him nothing else until lunch hoping that he will eat the HHB. Lunch offerings vary but they are per diet pyramid guidelines. Then in the evening again formula, block and some more veggies that he usually does not finish, but does partially eat. If he does eat all veggies I will give him a piece of nut, so still following the pyramid. Also, if and when I do give him a piece it's either a piece of an organic sprouted pecan, org. sprouted walnut or org sprouted almond piece (not the whole thing) those are the only sprouted nuts I've found locally. I am assuming that one they list one to two nuts that means like a pecan half is counted as one or does that mean the whole pecan in the shell is counted as one?? Either way he still eats way less than that.
Also, if 18 yrs ago I follow C.S. advice since she was the only rehabber willing to help, how in the world did Junior make it to 12?
I am not being argumentative, I am simply trying to understand all of this. The diet was more flexible and the the nutballs had way less calcium. How is it that he never got MBD, diabetes, kidney disease, and never lost his eyesight either. He died of a lung tumor, and the consulting expert vet said they've seen that in older squirrels. Gosh, this is so confusing. I'll continue to try my best and do right by Jasper. Thank you.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Thank you. As I said in previous posts, I am following Henry's diet pyramid. He still chooses to accept 30-40 ml of formula per day. Should I try to give him the blocks prior to the formula? I always do the formula then the block (one in the AM and now also one in the PM) and give him nothing else until lunch hoping that he will eat the HHB. Lunch offerings vary but they are per diet pyramid guidelines. Then in the evening again formula, block and some more veggies that he usually does not finish, but does partially eat. If he does eat all veggies I will give him a piece of nut, so still following the pyramid. Also, if and when I do give him a piece it's either a piece of an organic sprouted pecan, org. sprouted walnut or org sprouted almond piece (not the whole thing) those are the only sprouted nuts I've found locally. I am assuming that one they list one to two nuts that means like a pecan half is counted as one or does that mean the whole pecan in the shell is counted as one?? Either way he still eats way less than that.
Also, if 18 yrs ago I follow C.S. advice since she was the only rehabber willing to help, how in the world did Junior make it to 12?
I am not being argumentative, I am simply trying to understand all of this. The diet was more flexible and the the nutballs had way less calcium. How is it that he never got MBD, diabetes, kidney disease, and never lost his eyesight either. He died of a lung tumor, and the consulting expert vet said they've seen that in older squirrels. Gosh, this is so confusing. I'll continue to try my best and do right by Jasper. Thank you.

Hello again FosteringJasper! There are different approaches to how to transition to food other than formula during the weaning process. Jasper is obviously in the weaning process but he will not be weaned until he finally and definitively declines formula. As mentioned before, weaning should be managed by the Squirrel although you will certainly be an active participant. I try to offer formula for a week or so after it seems as if the Squirrel has given up on it and it is not unusual for find that a Squirrel might want some formula here and there for several more day or even weeks past the day it seems he has said goodbye to it! Weaning often is still going on at 15 or 16 weeks and beyond!

As far as how to sequence your blocks and other foods with the formula, I would say if the initial way does not seem to work, try another strategy but give it several days as a trial rather than switching up everything daily! I'm am stubborn when it comes to transitioning to foods other than formula during the weaning process. I totally ignore the entire Food Pyramid except for the base level that says "Blocks!" To me, there is no definitively wrong way to go about about giving sequencing formula and Blocks. I do try to start the day with formula but often offer a Block shortly afterward or leave a Block or half a block in the cage and give them time to notice it and eat it. If you only have one or two Squirrels, you can watch them much closer and give the Blocks when it seems to be a good time. Those who are raising many Squirrels just don't have the time to do this and they probably leave Blocks in the cage and give formula per some schedule and no doubt the Squirrels get to eating the Blocks eventually. From a nutritional standpoint, it is essential that Squirrel Babies transition to Blocks as their only options for food other than formula and it only when it becomes obvious that the Squirrel readily accepts Block, do I offer anything more! In my relatively low level Rehabbing, I have found that success in getting Squirrels to accept Blocks is to not give them a choice! Blocks should be the first food other than formula and the only food other than formula until it is evident that they are readily eating the Blocks and are not simply shredding them which they will do at least to some extent during the first several weeks after first being offered the Blocks.

With Jasper, I would just try to concentrate on the formula and Blocks and give less or none (tough love!) of the other stuff until the Blocks are finally considered food by your Squirrel and ensure that adequate daily Block eating is occurring before any foods from the higher levels of the Pyramid are given. I'm sure most people are not as hard-core as I am about this but I know some are! I do know that Blocks are the best source of nutrition leading into the Release Process!

I was gong to write a Private Message to you but I thought I would simply give you some of my personal commentary on the Rehabbber, CS you have mentioned. I know you have questions and unresolved conflicting evidence regarding the methodologies of CS, the Rehabber you dealt with 18 years ago.
First, just as background; MBD does not just occur from too little Elemental Calcium, it can also occurs from an excessive amount of phosphorus in relation to the calcium. I truly do NOT know how CS's instruction to give only one of her Nut-Balls daily to each Squirrel would provide anything near to the daily Calcium necessary to prevent MBD! CS uses a particular source of Calcium called Dolomite which is a form of limestone. She says that her recipe is for 100 blocks and that the Calcium from the Dolomite provides 1500-2000mg of Calcium. Even if we say that that this is 1500-2000m go of Elemental Calcium, one Nut-ball would contain a maximum of only 20mg of Calcium (2000mg Calcium/100 nut-balls = 20mg of Calcium. This is very little Calcium. In comparison, two Henry's Blocks contain 275mg of Elemental Calcium! I truly cannot explain how the relatively tiny amount of daily Calcium present in one of CS's nut-balls would or could provide adequate Calcium for a Squirrel!

Also, one of the things that bothers me the most about CS's commentaries is her take on cats. FosteringJasper, I love cats and I have a cat (i hope she is not reading this as she feels she has me!) but my cat stays indoors and never is near or in the same room as my Squirrels. Cats are natural predators and it is their nature to go after living things and they often "play" with them in a manner we view as cruelty before or instead of eating them! Every Baby season, feral cats and domestic cats let outdoors kill and maim countless baby animals! It's nature but it is also so very, very sad and in many instances could have been prevented by owner keeping their cats indoors!

CS states inexplicably that only about "5% of cats will harm a baby Squirrel" and that "Cats do NOT infect squirrels. I have NEVER found it necessary to give a cat-caught baby squirrel antibiotics. Oftentimes, scratches and puncture wounds on babies are attributed to the "bad" cat when, in reality, they have been caused by hitting broken twigs on the branches of trees as the baby fell. Cats are some of our best rescuers and can find the babies where we can’t, under leaves and in tall grass." This is utter nonsense! Cats are NOT animal rescuers, they are animal predators! While my Rehabbing practice is not on a large scale, I have been given my share of severely injured Squirrel Babies that were dragged in to someone's yard or home by a cat with few heartbeats left to their poor lives solely because they were attacked by a cat. A significant number of these Babies who were alive enough to have some potential for survival were brought in several days after the attack and most all had evidence of infection! Often, the infection can be deep inside or in the chest or abdomen because a cat's teeth are long, thin and sharply pointed and can puncture into bodily cavities, organs, muscles and even bones! Although I am not certain what percentage of cat bitten Baby Squirrels (or other animals) get an infection, I have seen it so often that to me, when it comes to options, I will always give an appropriate antibiotic to a cat bitten baby! ALWAYS!

FosteringJasper, I know that things went very well for you and your Squirrel 18 years ago and I am very sorry for his eventual loss! I know that you attribute his survival and good life at least in big part to CS and I fully understand and I readily accept that! I am not trying to cause you to deal with any further conflicting comments!

I just have some issues with CS in a number of significant ways I just cannot reconcile some of her comments or advice! The cat thing most of all; and in that, she is dangerously and heartbreakingly wrong! I cannot explain all of the successes attributed to her methods and I am so thankful in your behalf for the wonderful relationship you enjoyed with your other Squirrel that began 18 years ago! I am sorry for your ongoing confusion about some issues but I would humbly suggest that you continue to consider some of the suggestions that have been made here on The Squirrel Board! There is a wealth of knowledge and direct Squirrel experience that forms the basis for much of the suggestions and recommendations that you will see on The Squirrel Board! CS claims to have taken care of 2000 Squirrels but the "regulars" and those "occasional" Rehabbers here have also raised and helped many thousands of Squirrels and most all of the methodologies, recommendations, suggestions and commentaries posted here by our Rehabbers is evidence based as well! All I can really say at this point is please give us a chance and take as much of whatever you feel is worthy enough and makes sense enough for you to put into the care of Jasper! I wish the very best for you and for Jasper! Please keep on with the updates!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[fosteringjasper]

It seems I missed this one. But I just wanted to say I have the utmost respect for everyone here on the squirrel board. And I am very thankful for all the valuable advice I've been given. Frankly I think there should be a National Wildlife Rehabber Day. It is hard work taking proper care of this little guys. I can just manage with one and many of you take care of so many of them. Thank you all! Jasper is always keeping me on my toes. Actually, he is eating the HHB much better now, so that's great but now he does not want to eat his greens anymore. Why? What is going on? He is still wanting formula 2x day, should I try to cut him down to one formula feeding? He's 15 weeks now. Thank you

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

It seems I missed this one. But I just wanted to say I have the utmost respect for everyone here on the squirrel board. And I am very thankful for all the valuable advice I've been given. Frankly I think there should be a National Wildlife Rehabber Day. It is hard work taking proper care of this little guys. I can just manage with one and many of you take care of so many of them. Thank you all! Jasper is always keeping me on my toes. Actually, he is eating the HHB much better now, so that's great but now he does not want to eat his greens anymore. Why? What is going on? He is still wanting formula 2x day, should I try to cut him down to one formula feeding? He's 15 weeks now. Thank you

Thanks for your reply, FosteringJasper!
Is Jasper actually consuming the HHB and not simply shredding them? It is expected that when Blocks are first introduced, virtually every baby Squirrel will (when they finally decide to investigate the Blocks) simply play with it and in several days or sooner will begin to chew on it but usually the block is just torn up and little if any is consumed. All Squirrels will eventually start eating them as long as NOTHING else but formula is given! Not all Squirrels will eat the entire block and giving 1/2 of a Block initially is probably best and once the Squirrel is eating them, a whole Block at a time should probably be offered. IF the Squirrel is eating two full Blocks daily, that is actually complete nutrition but it is only about 10 Grams and they will still be hungry. That is where for a larger Squirrel or a Squirrel that seems to be a bit wasteful with his Blocks can be given a third HHB but NO more that day. Giving foods from the lower levels of the Pyramid and/or another type of quality Block such as Envigo (Teklad) or Mazuri Rat and Mouse diet will help with satiation (feeling full) and supplements nutritional support.

I would suggest continuing the twice daily formula feedings until Jasper finally refuses further formula. Squirrels will wean themselves! I suspect that Jasper is simply getting an adequate amount of the HHB and the formula and may not feel hungry enough to also eat the greens. You can also "experiment" with other "greens" and foods on the lower levels of the Pyramid but it is truly essential that if you are going to keep providing the HHB (which is certainly a good option) Jasper should be regularly consuming two; or at the most three, of them and doing this daily for a week or more before ANYTHING ELSE (this is my opinion and recommendation but if the Squirrel has not yet decided that the HHB or other Blocks are acceptable foods, the Squirrel will choose to eat whatever else is offered beside the Blocks and ignore the Blocks. Blocks should be at least 80% of a weaned Squirrels diet or even up to 100% until they are in the Release Cage!

Please say hello to little Jasper for me and tell him that I said to eat his Blocks! The best to both of you!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

A couple of other things I wanted to mention although you are probably doing this; is to keep the HHB in the freezer and take out only what you are going to use the following day (or maybe two) and transfer those to the refrigerator. HHB have no preservatives! It is also essential that you remove the uneaten HHB each day because if you don't, they will quickly spoil!
Regards,
StS

[fosteringjasper]

Hello! Yes, I keep the HHB in the freezer and take them just before giving them to him. I have now gotten all the different options of the henry's block, the healthy, walnut, wild, picky and just got the hazelnut delivered Friday. So far, the best received is the picky blocks. And I also offer him teklad 2018 to at least gnaw at it. He is indeed picky. Yes, I do clear away all food debris. Have any of you tried the new wombaroo formula from Henrys? Thanks again!