Amputee with infection

[Shellysfriend]

Hi, Irrel is a 11 week old 520 gram male fox squirrel that was found approximately 3 weeks old, and I have had about 6 weeks now. He was found with his front left wrist and paw missing. He’s been healing quite well, is very active and hasn’t been bothered by it much. He always has let me put salve on the end of his stump and not complained about it. I had to go out of town the other day and noticed before I left that the end seemed kind of big and thought it might just be swollen tissue from being active and still healing. My wife called and said at his last feeding it started draining white discharge. It must have been an abscess I felt. She helped it drain the best she could. I have a new 1 ml miracle syringe, cipro 250, clindamycin 30, amoxicillin clavoxonate 875/125, smz/tmp 800/160, baytril 10% 1ml/100mg endoflaxin.

[CritterMom]

We will need his weight, too.

Before the meds, can you get to a drug store or Walmart and pick up a bottle of Betadyne 10% povidone iodine (or the store brand if they have it for less $). It looks like a squeeze bottle of blood! Dilute it at 1/2 teaspoon betadyne to 1/4 cup boiled and cooled water. Either dunk the stub in there or use a cotton ball and dribble it over the wound so it is saturated, and just let it air dry. It doesn't burn or sting at all - works great on humans too. It is a powerful antibacterial and antifungal so it will clean and disinfect what is there now and if you do it a couple times a day it will continue to keep it clean without a bandage.

Speaking to someone else about which med to choose. Get us the weight and you will have info shortly.

By the way, the iodine WILL stain stuff so dress accordingly.

[Shellysfriend]

520 grams is his weight

[CritterMom]

Thanks - sorry - can you get a good photo of the site? Like head on so we can see what is going on? Does it look like a flesh thing only or is there bone involvement?

[Shellysfriend]

Sure, I’ll be home in a few hours and will try to get some good pictures. In the meantime I’ll have my wife pick up the Bentadyne

[Sadachara]

Others with more experience in this area can weigh in on internal medications, but I'd honestly also start topical treatment with a serious but totally safe substance like Hypochlorous Acid. I would immediately order 0.2% strength hypochlorous acid and soak it in it. It is completely safe, and indicated for infections. I've never heard a single bad thing about it. In terms of wound infection protocols for humans and from what I am told veterinary is 2 minute exposure minimum, but ideally 10-15 minute exposure, ideally with immersion in it, or at the least soaked gauze.

You can make your own Hypochlorous of varying strength by getting a machine. I like 0.3% for heavy infection treatments. A machine like this is priceless for around the house, cleaning, wound treatment, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Eco-One-Portable-Hypochlorous-Multi-Purpose/dp/B09235LH6Q/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=hypochlorous+machine&sr=8-5

At the very least, you can order Cleansmart. It's all the same - hypoclorous acid, and cleansmart is extremely pure. We've used it for wound treatment for many years, but now generate our own. This is the same stuff doctors, dentists, and vets use and often sell in their offices.

https://www.amazon.com/CleanSmart-Surface-Bacteria-Chemical-sanitizer/dp/B011AJRJZI

You can even combine treat with Betadyne between Hypochlorous without issue. I was able to stop a staph infection in my rescue in just a 24 hour period with full remission and healing activity using this combination to strike it fast. Generally, I'd do hypochlorous during the day, and Betadyne before bed so it stays on with the staining. My 2 cents.

[Shellysfriend]

325934325935325936
So I had left for work Saturday and got home today and his stump was way swollen and the big red area was not there before. It had looked really good before. The darker more recessed looking area is the original wound. The more deflated looking picture is after I drained it tonight. I thought my wife drained it but didn’t really. I got a ton of stinky thick white puss out of it in till it turned to more reddish color at the end. Then it was bath time which he used to enjoy but not so much anymore! I did put the iodine solution on it. I know the pictures are hard to tell but hopefully you’ll be able to see what we are dealing with. He was active as usual when I got home and seemed his usual self.

[Shellysfriend]

Others with more experience in this area can weigh in on internal medications, but I'd honestly also start topical treatment with a serious but totally safe substance like Hypochlorous Acid. I would immediately order 0.2% strength hypochlorous acid and soak it in it. It is completely safe, and indicated for infections. I've never heard a single bad thing about it. In terms of wound infection protocols for humans and from what I am told veterinary is 2 minute exposure minimum, but ideally 10-15 minute exposure, ideally with immersion in it, or at the least
You can make your own Hypochlorous of varying strength by getting a machine. I like 0.3% for heavy infection treatments. A machine like this is priceless for around the house, cleaning, wound treatment, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Eco-One-Portable-Hypochlorous-Multi-Purpose/dp/B09235LH6Q/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=hypochlorous+machine&sr=8-5

At the very least, you can order Cleansmart. It's all the same - hypoclorous acid, and cleansmart is extremely pure. We've used it for wound treatment for many years, but now generate our own. This is the same stuff doctors, dentists, and vets use and often sell in their offices.

https://www.amazon.com/CleanSmart-Surface-Bacteria-Chemical-sanitizer/dp/B011AJRJZI

You can even combine treat with Betadyne between Hypochlorous without issue. I was able to stop a staph infection in my rescue in just a 24 hour period with full remission and healing activity using this combination to strike it fast. Generally, I'd do hypochlorous during the day, and Betadyne before bed so it stays on with the staining. My 2 cents.
I’ve never heard of it before. Does it sting or burn? Just wondering what I’d be in for?

[Sadachara]

I’ve never heard of it before. Does it sting or burn? Just wondering what I’d be in for?

Hypochlorous does not sting or burn, or damage soft tissue. In fact, it is EXCEEDINGLY soothing to the point animals often enjoy when it is applied (same with people, lol) Hypochlorous reduces inflammation by stabilizing mast cells, which also improves healing, but it is a rapid agent for the eradication of harmful pathogens.

In fact, I have a small infection on my toe right now from an injury, and I am soaking it in HOCl 3x a day. Our vet and ophthalmologist actually sell Hypochlorous in their offices. It's a rather potent cure for staph infections (as well as C-19, MRSA, etc), and is a great topical agent and wound cleaner.

https://ivcjournal.com/hypochlorous-acid-solutions/

I started making hypochlorous (with a machine) about a decade ago, and consider it one of the most suppressed potent therapies ever for a variety of things. But let me explain how I first encountered it.. I purchased some initially after never hearing about the fact it could be stabilized in a bottle, but I knew our cells produce it. I used it to clean around the house and inhaled some of it. But something remarkable happened - I used to get persistent sinus infections, almost like I 'permanently' had a sinus infection. After inhaling it while cleaning with it I felt my sinuses drain out, and then I expelled some pretty terrible old mucus and biofilm. From that day forward, I never had a sinus infection again. My ENT thinks I got enough of it up there to destroy some latent biofilm that was 'existing' in my sinus cavity.

https://www.clireon.com/pages/hypochlorous-acid

I would order it without delay to be honest.

[Shellysfriend]

325937This is this morning so 8 hrs after I drained it last night.

[CritterMom]

It is difficult to tell - is it swollen again or does it look pretty much like it did last night? Simply from appearances, does it look like the infection is in the skin around the would or dies it appear to be involving the bone stump? We will get you some meds info for it very soon.

I am going to say something that will probably be rejected at first, but... There is a reason that when vets are faced with unhealable wounds on the lower part of the leg, they amputate the leg to the shoulder instead of just taking the wounded part. It is because the end of the leg is NEVER going to be suitable for being used to walk on - no tough paw pads and they are not going to produce callouses that will help. But they WILL use it to walk on because the leg is there to do so. I fear that this is going to be a recurring theme. Even if you devise an environment that involves NO wire mesh, NO cage bars, every surface covered with microfleece, that little stub is still going to be getting wear and tear it isn't able to handle.

I would begin canvassing for a vet who would be willing to take the leg off. We have a well known rear leg amputee that belongs to one of our admins who has spent the years since losing it outrunning her dad and regularly faking him out of his shoes. They do way better than we do with things like this.

[Spanky]

This is this morning so 8 hrs after I drained it last night.

How much of her arm remains? Hard to tell from the angle if this is "above the elbow", which for a squirrel would be closer to the torso than with a human.

I am assuming you opened and drained the abscess... or did it open on it's own? Is the bone exposed at all from the incision to drain (or exposed period I suppose!).

[CritterMom]

Dosing sent by PM

[Shellysfriend]

How much of her arm remains? Hard to tell from the angle if this is "above the elbow", which for a squirrel would be closer to the torso than with a human.

I am assuming you opened and drained the abscess... or did it open on it's own? Is the bone exposed at all from the incision to drain (or exposed period I suppose!).


It is right below his elbow. I am actually not sure if it is scab or bone at the end. The area has been steadily getting smaller since I got him and was hoping that the skin over time would envelop it if it was bone. Working on my burrito technique to keep that arm out but all the others contained. Seems to be harder than it sounds. It started draining on its own yesterday when my wife was feeding him, at first she thought he had formula on his arm. When I got back to town last night I could tell right away it was way swollen. After hugging the stuffings out of him when I started messing around with the area it started draining on its own. I just applied pressure to facilitate the process and to try to get as much as I could out. It is NOT coming out from the original scab/bone site. The swollen area is to the side of it. The dark spot on the red swollen area almost looks like what is left of a blood blister and almost seems to be the center of it. The puss started draining from between the “blood blister” and the original wound. Not saying that it isn’t the original wound that is the problem but I don’t know for sure.

[Shellysfriend]

Dosing sent by PM

Thank you, started today

[Shellysfriend]

It is difficult to tell - is it swollen again or does it look pretty much like it did last night? Simply from appearances, does it look like the infection is in the skin around the would or dies it appear to be involving the bone stump? We will get you some meds info for it very soon.

I am going to say something that will probably be rejected at first, but... There is a reason that when vets are faced with unhealable wounds on the lower part of the leg, they amputate the leg to the shoulder instead of just taking the wounded part. It is because the end of the leg is NEVER going to be suitable for being used to walk on - no tough paw pads and they are not going to produce callouses that will help. But they WILL use it to walk on because the leg is there to do so. I fear that this is going to be a recurring theme. Even if you devise an environment that involves NO wire mesh, NO cage bars, every surface covered with microfleece, that little stub is still going to be getting wear and tear it isn't able to handle.

I would begin canvassing for a vet who would be willing to take the leg off. We have a well known rear leg amputee that belongs to one of our admins who has spent the years since losing it outrunning her dad and regularly faking him out of his shoes. They do way better than we do with things like this.
Thanks, I was hoping not to have to go there but won’t rule it out. Kind of felt since I got him that there may have to be some sort of intervention at some point but figured we’d see how the initial healing went first. Was actually going and looking really well till this. I’m not so sure a vet isn’t a bad idea anyway with this sort of injury. Is there any sort of list of “pet” friendly vets in not “pet” friendly states that can be pm’d? I know there are good ones in far away states which can be done but if there are closer ones…could be handy to have?

[Spanky]

The dark spot on the red swollen area almost looks like what is left of a blood blister and almost seems to be the center of it.

I am wondering if the "blood blister" might be the end of the bone and the red the morrow / center of the bone....

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Shellysfriend:
Thank you for your concern and care you are bestowing upon this little injured Squirrel, Irrel! In you original post, you mentioned having used a "salve." What is it and are you still using it? Also, apparently an antibiotic is now being given. If I missed this in your thread, I apologize but would please identify the particular antibiotic now being given to your baby? You also mentioned that Irrel's amputation is below the elbow which means that the remaining portions of both of the forearm bone, the radius and ulna may be exposed. Infections can easily develop from injuries such as this and it does sound like that is what has developed with the visualizing of pus but there can actually be other causes. That is one reason I am asking about the particular "salve" that was used or is still being used. Ointments for marketed for use on the skin such as Neomycin and Triple Antibiotic among others contain the antibiotic called Neomycin. The ads for Neosporin imply that this medication is a miracle drug and it will prevent and infection or cure an infection if one already exists. It is doubtful that it can do either but that is not the issue with Neomycin. This medication is perhaps the most allergenic of the skin antibiotics and there can result from this such a severe allergic reaction that is difficult if not impossible to differentiate this from an infection by looking at!

I am in whole hearted agreement with the suggestions made previously for Irrel to be evaluated by an experienced and Squirrel friendly Veterinarian. Ideally, the Veterinarian should be experienced with Squirrels but a second choice would be someone who has experience with pet Rats and these two species are related and much of the treatments and medications we utilize for our Squirrels came from evidence derived from Rats.

I am NOT a Veterinarian and I do want you to know this but I would like to give you my opinion regarding the injury Irrel has sustained anyway and what I would consider an optimal plan. Obviously, there is no technology for a forearm prosthesis (an artificial limb) for a Squirrel and that would be the only possible reason to conserve the remainder of the radius and ulna and leave them in place. I would like to suggest that a Veterinarian be consulted and to also consider the options of removing the remainder of the radius and ulna while conserving the arm above with its bone, the humerus. With the radius and ulna removed, and the damaged tissue debrided (removed), a skin flap could be advanced over the end of the humerus. With my tendency toward wishful thinking and optimism; hopefully, your Squirrel would then be "willing" to walk on three paws and not try to walk on the injured extremity and not "mess" with the the stump (and these are probably some of the concerns that CritterMom has and that is why she has suggested a "complete" amputation of the injured extremity) although I truly suspect that there is more of a risk of these problems in a Squirrel with a partial amputation of one of the rear extremity than with a partial amputation of a front extremity as this would be. Once healing had taken place; Irrel could at least use the remaining arm to assist with holding food or for some balance benefits. These are just thoughts but I do think a Vet visit is imperative!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hi Shellysfriend:
Thank you for your concern and care you are bestowing upon this little injured Squirrel, Irrel! In you original post, you mentioned having used a "salve." What is it and are you still using it? Also, apparently an antibiotic is now being given. If I missed this in your thread, I apologize but would please identify the particular antibiotic now being given to your baby? You also mentioned that Irrel's amputation is below the elbow which means that the remaining portions of both of the forearm bone, the radius and ulna may be exposed. Infections can easily develop from injuries such as this and it does sound like that is what has developed with the visualizing of pus but there can actually be other causes. That is one reason I am asking about the particular "salve" that was used or is still being used. Ointments for marketed for use on the skin such as Neomycin and Triple Antibiotic among others contain the antibiotic called Neomycin. The ads for Neosporin imply that this medication is a miracle drug and it will prevent and infection or cure an infection if one already exists. It is doubtful that it can do either but that is not the issue with Neomycin. This medication is perhaps the most allergenic of the skin antibiotics and there can result from this such a severe allergic reaction that is difficult if not impossible to differentiate this from an infection by looking at!

I am in whole hearted agreement with the suggestions made previously for Irrel to be evaluated by an experienced and Squirrel friendly Veterinarian. Ideally, the Veterinarian should be experienced with Squirrels but a second choice would be someone who has experience with pet Rats and these two species are related and much of the treatments and medications we utilize for our Squirrels came from evidence derived from Rats.

I am NOT a Veterinarian and I do want you to know this but I would like to give you my opinion regarding the injury Irrel has sustained anyway and what I would consider an optimal plan. Obviously, there is no technology for a forearm prosthesis (an artificial limb) for a Squirrel and that would be the only possible reason to conserve the remainder of the radius and ulna and leave them in place. I would like to suggest that a Veterinarian be consulted and to also consider the options of removing the remainder of the radius and ulna while conserving the arm above with its bone, the humerus. With the radius and ulna removed, and the damaged tissue debrided (removed), a skin flap could be advanced over the end of the humerus. With my tendency toward wishful thinking and optimism; hopefully, your Squirrel would then be "willing" to walk on three paws and not try to walk on the injured extremity and not "mess" with the the stump (and these are probably some of the concerns that CritterMom has and that is why she has suggested a "complete" amputation of the injured extremity) although I truly suspect that there is more of a risk of these problems in a Squirrel with a partial amputation of one of the rear extremity than with a partial amputation of a front extremity as this would be. Once healing had taken place; Irrel could at least use the remaining arm to assist with holding food or for some balance benefits. These are just thoughts but I do think a Vet visit is imperative!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Hi Sam the Squirrel, thank you for taking the time to reply. This is the salve that I had been but am no longer applying. It seemed to work well to keep the area from drying out and keep healing. When I got him it was scabbed and then the scab would fall off and be raw. I was afraid that he would lick at something like coconut oil and knew Neosporin was a no-no. Silvedyne had been recommended but I was not able to obtain any yet. The antibiotic being used now is SMZ-TMP. He let me poke and prod a bit around the area without any objection and played as hard as ever tonight. This picture is from tonight. The dark spot to the right (top, picture rotated) is the original injury and the infected area is to the left 325943325944

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Sam the Squirrel, thank you for taking the time to reply. This is the salve that I had been but am no longer applying. It seemed to work well to keep the area from drying out and keep healing. When I got him it was scabbed and then the scab would fall off and be raw. I was afraid that he would lick at something like coconut oil and knew Neosporin was a no-no. Silvedyne had been recommended but I was not able to obtain any yet. The antibiotic being used now is SMZ-TMP. He let me poke and prod a bit around the area without any objection and played as hard as ever tonight. This picture is from tonight. The dark spot to the right (top, picture rotated) is the original injury and the infected area is to the left 325943325944

Thanks Shellysfriend!
The whole injured area appears fairly good to me! It may be that the photo is just not revealing some of the more concerning issues but as it appears in the photo, it does not look bad to me! Is there any likelihood of a Vet visit? It may be worthwhile to consider "formal" wound care. I have used what is called Moist Wound Healing for some fairly significant wounds and this method is used as a standard in wound care. Wounds should not be permitted to dry out and there are some very neat wound dressing materials that both protect the wound and keep it moist and the choice of which to use is based upon how wet or dry the wound tends to get (is there a lot of drainage of very little for instance) in order to keep the wound moist but not saturated or "dripping."

One of the things that concerns me beyond what seems like an infection is what I have mentioned and that is that currently, the remainder of the "forearm" is never going to be an asset for functioning and is also where the open wound a probably the infection itself resides and ideally, this should be surgically debrided (removed) and once the wound is clean and healthy tissue remains, a flap of healthy skin may be able to be brought down over the end of the upper part of the extremity that contains the single bone called the humerus after the remainder of remnants of the forearm portion of the extremity has been surgically removed and unhealthy tissue debrided! Again, hopefully, an experienced Vet can help and will be able to knowledgeably perform the necessary surgical procedures and assist with coordinating a wound care protocol hopefully utilizing Moist Wound Healing!

Thanks again for your care of and your love for this little injured Squirrel!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Thanks Shellysfriend!
The whole injured area appears fairly good to me! It may be that the photo is just not revealing some of the more concerning issues but as it appears in the photo, it does not look bad to me! Is there any likelihood of a Vet visit? It may be worthwhile to consider "formal" wound care. I have used what is called Moist Wound Healing for some fairly significant wounds and this method is used as a standard in wound care. Wounds should not be permitted to dry out and there are some very neat wound dressing materials that both protect the wound and keep it moist and the choice of which to use is based upon how wet or dry the wound tends to get (is there a lot of drainage of very little for instance) in order to keep the wound moist but not saturated or "dripping."

One of the things that concerns me beyond what seems like an infection is what I have mentioned and that is that currently, the remainder of the "forearm" is never going to be an asset for functioning and is also where the open wound a probably the infection itself resides and ideally, this should be surgically debrided (removed) and once the wound is clean and healthy tissue remains, a flap of healthy skin may be able to be brought down over the end of the upper part of the extremity that contains the single bone called the humerus after the remainder of remnants of the forearm portion of the extremity has been surgically removed and unhealthy tissue debrided! Again, hopefully, an experienced Vet can help and will be able to knowledgeably perform the necessary surgical procedures and assist with coordinating a wound care protocol hopefully utilizing Moist Wound Healing!

Thanks again for your care of and your love for this little injured Squirrel!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

Hi Sam the Squirrel, I agree that right now it looks really good. It’s just an update photo to show where it’s at now. I drained what I swear was a full ml out of puss from it the other night. One of my main concerns would be keeping it from introducing and bacteria from the outside since it has a path in. We’re keeping up with the iodine. There hasn’t been any drainage since the other night. I will look into the moist wound care products. What you’re describing for removing and bringing the skin over is kind of what I had in my head might need done. I was thinking that the bone may need shortening and smoothing a bit however removing the joint may be a good point as you and crittermom have suggested. I do not currently have a vet lined up. Not squirrel friendly here, but would love to find one. I’ve got a couple people I can ask that may possibly get me in the right direction.
Thanks again

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Sam the Squirrel, I agree that right now it looks really good. It’s just an update photo to show where it’s at now. I drained what I swear was a full ml out of puss from it the other night. One of my main concerns would be keeping it from introducing and bacteria from the outside since it has a path in. We’re keeping up with the iodine. There hasn’t been any drainage since the other night. I will look into the moist wound care products. What you’re describing for removing and bringing the skin over is kind of what I had in my head might need done. I was thinking that the bone may need shortening and smoothing a bit however removing the joint may be a good point as you and crittermom have suggested. I do not currently have a vet lined up. Not squirrel friendly here, but would love to find one. I’ve got a couple people I can ask that may possibly get me in the right direction.
Thanks again

Thanks Shellysfriend! Please keep us updated.
My hopes are for you to be able to expeditiously find an appropriate, Squirrel Friendly Vet and for Irrel to be happy, healthy as possible, and do well!

I can help with the wound care but this would of course be indirectly and at a distance and it would not be the same as someone experienced in wound care actually showing you how to do this. Again, using Moist Wound Care protocols is pretty much the standard nowadays! What used to be done and is actually still done by some who don't know or just won't change is what is called wet-to-dry wound care in which a wet dressing is applied over the wound and allowed to dry and then peeled off which removes what was felt to be dead or damaged cellular material and the changing of the dressing was felt to provide necessary debridement. Virtually nobody who understands wound healing and wound care agrees with this any longer. Please do not let anyone try to "sell you" the wet-to-dry methods!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Tashahaven]

StS the “moist wound care” you speak of for general wound care, doesn’t it typically utilize hydrocoilloid type dressings? Would this even be possible to use on this type of wound? Where it can/will most likely be pulled off by the squirrel or by activity? Plus it’s such a difficult location because it is at the end of the stub?

Otherwise, I’m quite curious how to treat this area with moist care? How do you propose to do so?

Im very intrigued! 🥰

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

StS the “moist wound care” you speak of for general wound care, doesn’t it typically utilize hydrocoilloid type dressings? Would this even be possible to use on this type of wound? Where it can/will most likely be pulled off by the squirrel or by activity? Plus it’s such a difficult location because it is at the end of the stub?

Otherwise, I’m quite curious how to treat this area with moist care? How do you propose to do so?

Im very intrigued! 🥰

Hi TH:
I probably should have sent a response by PM but I also wanted to mention once again, my continued hope that Irrel will be able to be evaluated by an appropriately trained and experienced Squirrel Veterinary surgeon!

So here is my take on this case as far as wound care goes and I freely admit that I don't have all of the answers! For one thing, this wound is not an "optimal" wound and there is little likelihood, IMHO, that this wound will even potentially resolve without surgical intervention unless some means can be found to encourage tissue regrowth including re-epithelialization and help provide protection from further injuries or conditions. These can be thought of as having the potential for both exogenous (from what is not a part of the Squirrel like results of impact from falling or bumping into something) and endogenous (from the Squirrel himself such as a bone fragment poking through the wound or reinfection) mechanisms. Also, satisfactory primary healing is made far more difficult with the jagged edges of the remaining radius and ulna being where they can literally poke through at the tip of the "stump!"

This approach (which I do not feel is ideal or optimal) would need to be accompanied by the strong hope that eventually, a point will be reached at which the wound is healed without secondary issues such as infection, pain, drainage or interference with functioning (other than that which would be associated with the loss of this one extremity). With this case, I have consistently been an advocate for evaluation by an appropriately trained and experience Veterinarian with the goal of a surgical revision being performed!

My thoughts on chronic wound care are based upon my own impression that if this wound is not surgically debrided (that is where the remainder of the ulna and radius along with the damaged tissues of the remaining potion of the "forearm" are removed and the stump revised to permit advancing healthy flaps of skin over the end of the arm to form a stable normal stump; there will be a need for chronic wound care.

If this wound can be adequately revised surgically; there would really be no need for even considering any form of chronic wound care, including, of course, MWH!

As far as use of any dressing on a Squirrel or any animal that has chewing, licking or biting tendencies; it is going to very difficult and I don't have a definitive means of wound protection that would not potentially impact the remaining quality of life for little Irrel and that is why the option of waiting and watching to see what happens (if surgical intervention cannot be facilitated) may be as good as it gets, at least at the start. E-Collars are difficult to utilize with Squirrels. Sometimes, what we would ordinarily term "messing" with the wound by the Squirrel is simply indulging in the only instinctual options available to a Squirrel in the wild. These options, for this injury would be to chew away the exposed bone and damaged skin and let "nature" close the wound. Possibly, an animal in the wild would even chew a significant portion of the remaining extremity away! I do not know!

To try answer your question about using Hydrocolloid dressing material as being a standard component of Moist Wound Healing; that is a resounding "maybe!" The actual type of Moisture Retentive Dressing (MRD) utilized in each particular wound and really in each particular stage of healing of a chronic wound depends upon the actual or anticipated dress of natural hydration 9of the wound. If a high degree of drainage is expected, there is no need to utilize a dressing material that highly binds moisture as there is plenty, if not an excess of moisture developed from the wound itself!

A Hydrocolloid MRD would be used where drainage would be mild to maybe a little more than that but it would not be appropriate for use at a site wound where either extensive drainage or a particularly low degree of drainage is anticipated. In those two conditions; Alginate or Hydrogel MRD's respectively, would be more appropriate.

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

325983
Irrel says hi everyone, this is his leg this morning. We’re still pursuing a vet. Everything is looking good so far at least. Thank you all for the questions, responses and interest.

[Sadachara]

Hypochlorous can make a wound seemingly almost miraculously heal in a matter of hours.

Have you tried that as well?

[Shellysfriend]

Hypochlorous can make a wound seemingly almost miraculously heal in a matter of hours.

Have you tried that as well?

It is on order.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hypochlorous can make a wound seemingly almost miraculously heal in a matter of hours.

Have you tried that as well?

I am also in favor of utilizing this as long as the Hypochlorous Acid (often abbreviated as HOCL) is obtained from a reputable source, verified to be HOCL and diluted properly! HOCL is actually an endogenous (made by the body) substance made by various forms of at least mammalian White Blood Cells! It is a very effective disinfectant and sanitizer! That being said, there are generally agreed upon stages in definitive Wound Care Management and debridement is the major component of Stage 1. All I want to do is stress this point one more time "for the record" and I will be still about it for now on!

Shellysfriend, I know that you are looking for an appropriate Veterinarian and I hope that you are successful! In the meantime, Hypochlorous Acid, again, IF it is verified as being HOCL and IF it is properly diluted can be of significant benefit in keeping the wound clean and may very likely be of benefit in the healing process. It is not to be expected but in the event this wound is not debrided; mammalian body's remarkable natural healing abilities, along with HOCL in conjunction with an appropriate and optimal plan of Wound Care Management may result in an adequate growth of tissue to minimize repeated disturbances from the remnants of the two broken bones and there may even be some natural bone remodeling that would help make the ends of the bones blunt rather than sharp as they are at this time.

Please keep us updated on Irrel's status and ask any question that may come to mind at any time!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Mel1959]

I’m going to send you a private message with a possible vet’s name located in WI.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

How is Irrel doing?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

How is Irrel doing?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

326012
Irrel is doing very well. He is active, has a good appetite and is gaining weight every day! His leg is steadily improving. I have a vet that agreed to see him, however this is through a new to me contact and I have yet to speak with this vet personally. They were out of the office today so hopefully tomorrow I can have a conversation and possibly set an appointment. Also the hypochlorous acid solution that Sadachara recommended finally showed up today. Thank you for asking and thinking of Irrel!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

326012
Irrel is doing very well. He is active, has a good appetite and is gaining weight every day! His leg is steadily improving. I have a vet that agreed to see him, however this is through a new to me contact and I have yet to speak with this vet personally. They were out of the office today so hopefully tomorrow I can have a conversation and possibly set an appointment. Also the hypochlorous acid solution that Sadachara recommended finally showed up today. Thank you for asking and thinking of Irrel!

Hi Shellysfriend and thanks for the update! The possibility of a Vet visit for Irrel is wonderful news! The photo looks very good! I'm glad that Irrel is doing well! Please tell Irrel that I said hello! Also, please post further updates on Irrel! Thanks for you care of this Little One!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Tashahaven]

Hello Irrel! Your leg is looking much better!

Thanks for the update Shellysfriend! Please let us know how it goes with the vet.

Also make sure to talk to him First! Ask important questions: like their policy on pet squirrels, if they have experience treating squirrels or other small rodents, if they will release him back to you etc.

I realize it is considerably expensive to do the surgery, but it will give him the best quality of life long term. StepNStone’s Annie had an amputation of her back leg, to the hip bone, done by laser surgery, and her healing was incredible, and she has lived a VERY LONG, happy, energetic, playful and full life! (You can check out her thread https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?45449-My-Annie-(was)-gone. Scroll to the last 8 pages or so to read about and see the before and after surgery. A VERY inspirational and hopeful story)

The possibility of a successful operation to remove the existing bone to the joint may provide the best outcome for him. Decreasing the need for repeated wound care, infections, discomfort etc. and increasing the likelihood he will adapt and learn to get around comfortably and be active. Although I’m NOT a vet. Just my thoughts.

Keep up the cuteness Irrel! ❤️

[Shellysfriend]

326024Irrel says hi all! Unfortunately the first vet after getting pictures of the leg declined. Not sure if she will be able to offer any other contacts or not yet. I was able to get in touch with a vet tech that is willing to help but surgery on the bone she wouldn’t be able to do but again is going to try some of her contacts. One question I have is how long should he be on the SMZ-TMP antibiotic. I was hoping the vet was going to be able to answer that today but…. All in all Irrel is doing well, super active, eating, pooping and sleeping like a champ! This picture was just taken.

[Shellysfriend]

So my contact came through with another vet that is willing to see him, they asked about neutering at the same time he is under at some point. The leg is my utmost priority obviously, and until the vet sees him and we talk I don’t know where this is going yet. While it may or may not be the appropriate time to tackle that, what are the thoughts and experiences with neutering?

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

So my contact came through with another vet that is willing to see him, they asked about neutering at the same time he is under at some point. The leg is my utmost priority obviously, and until the vet sees him and we talk I don’t know where this is going yet. While it may or may not be the appropriate time to tackle that, what are the thoughts and experiences with neutering?

Hi Shellysfriend:
Again, it sure seems as if Irrel is doing very well! I will give you my usual disclaimer and that is that I am not a Vet! That being said, here are my comments and suggestions.
1) as with any Vet, please follow the suggestions given to you by TashaHaven in regard to the anticipated visit with the Veterinarian. I would strongly suggest that you determine whether or not this Vet is Squirrel-friendly, Squirrel-experienced and willing to let you be there with Irrel during the exam and that they will return Irrel to your care after each visit or procedure. One of the greatest concerns with visiting a Vet (or anyone else who may participate in the care of Irrel) is that they will NOT confiscate or euthanize your Squirrel! And yes, it does happen! This is not paranoid thinking! Squirrels, to state the obvious are wildlife and often things are different simply because of that and what might be a very conscientious dog or cat Vet may "treat" wildlife completely different. Many or really most States do NOT prevent Veterinarians to see wildlife (if they choose to do so) BUT in those States (most of them) that have laws restricting the keeping of wildlife by the general public, also restrict or limit the time a wild animal can be in the Vets possession before being turned over to a licensed wildlife rehabber. So....it is very important to determine BEFORE Irrel goes anywhere; that the facility or individual who may become involved in Irrel's care will NOT confiscate or euthanize Irrel. There have even been cases where an obviously Non-Releasable Squirrel such as Irrel would be let loose in the wild to just to be a meal for a predator and justified with the comment that "we just let 'Mother' Nature take care of things!"

2) the other issue with the Vet visit is to determine what experience the Vet has with Squirrels or at least related species such as pet rats. Do they have experience performing orthopedic procedures such as the the amputation of the remaining forearm portion of the front extremity (again, my opinion is for conservation of the arm portion which is above the elbow, but of course, get their opinion and their detailed rationales for any recommendations)!

3) does the Vet have more than cursory experience with using conventional inhaled anesthetic agents such as Isoflurane and monitoring the status of the Squirrel and of the anesthesia during surgery.

4) You asked about whether or not the SMZ-TMP should be discontinued. I'll give you my opinion on this but yes, it would be good to get this advice from the Vet after the visit but it now seems that a visit while maybe being just over the horizon right now; you do not have a definitive appointment date as of yet. It seems from one of your posts that you actually did an Incision & Drainage procedure on Irrel's "stump" and significant pus was expelled form the wound. You also got a PM from CritterMom for the dosing on the 20th. Again, my opinions only; IF Irrel has been on the antibiotics for those 8 days and for at least the past 3 or 4 days (or more) he has NOT had any signs of infection such as swelling, fluctuance (a tense but boggy skin mass or bump which is a sign of an abscess), redness of the skin or drainage; most likely you could stop the antibiotics. If you wanted to simply set a time-frame for discontinuing the antibiotics but to not so so immediately, 10 days of being on the antibiotics with being free of any signs of infection for what would be more than 5 days should be fine as well! IF Irrel has developed an infection in the bone itself which would be broken remnants of the radius and/or ulna, the SMZ/TMP will not treat this adequately anyway. Removal or relatively long-term antibiotics of a different sort is required!

5) As far as the inquiry about getting Irrel neutered; I am not certain why they mentioned this unless they thought perhaps that if Irrel was neutered, it might decrease his activity level. I am not certain that if this was their rationale, it would be any more than a crap shoot!

Also, Irrel is an NR and his destiny is not in the trees but in your home and with your loving care! He is currently very active and that is a good sign unto itself but it also demonstrates that within the restrictions of captivity (which he needs), he is quite functional and I personally don't see why a possible decrease in activity that might be "gained" from this second surgical procedure would be worth doing! Just find out why they suggested this and have some time to think about it and post this in Irrel's thread.

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hi Shellysfriend:
Again, it sure seems as if Irrel is doing very well! I will give you my usual disclaimer and that is that I am not a Vet! That being said, here are my comments and suggestions.
1) as with any Vet, please follow the suggestions given to you by TashaHaven in regard to the anticipated visit with the Veterinarian. I would strongly suggest that you determine whether or not this Vet is Squirrel-friendly, Squirrel-experienced and willing to let you be there with Irrel during the exam and that they will return Irrel to your care after each visit or procedure. One of the greatest concerns with visiting a Vet (or anyone else who may participate in the care of Irrel) is that they will NOT confiscate or euthanize your Squirrel! And yes, it does happen! This is not paranoid thinking! Squirrels, to state the obvious are wildlife and often things are different simply because of that and what might be a very conscientious dog or cat Vet may "treat" wildlife completely different. Many or really most States do NOT prevent Veterinarians to see wildlife (if they choose to do so) BUT in those States (most of them) that have laws restricting the keeping of wildlife by the general public, also restrict or limit the time a wild animal can be in the Vets possession before being turned over to a licensed wildlife rehabber. So....it is very important to determine BEFORE Irrel goes anywhere; that the facility or individual who may become involved in Irrel's care will NOT confiscate or euthanize Irrel. There have even been cases where an obviously Non-Releasable Squirrel such as Irrel would be let loose in the wild to just to be a meal for a predator and justified with the comment that "we just let 'Mother' Nature take care of things!"

2) the other issue with the Vet visit is to determine what experience the Vet has with Squirrels or at least related species such as pet rats. Do they have experience performing orthopedic procedures such as the the amputation of the remaining forearm portion of the front extremity (again, my opinion is for conservation of the arm portion which is above the elbow, but of course, get their opinion and their detailed rationales for any recommendations)!

3) does the Vet have more than cursory experience with using conventional inhaled anesthetic agents such as Isoflurane and monitoring the status of the Squirrel and of the anesthesia during surgery.

4) You asked about whether or not the SMZ-TMP should be discontinued. I'll give you my opinion on this but yes, it would be good to get this advice from the Vet after the visit but it now seems that a visit while maybe being just over the horizon right now; you do not have a definitive appointment date as of yet. It seems from one of your posts that you actually did an Incision & Drainage procedure on Irrel's "stump" and significant pus was expelled form the wound. You also got a PM from CritterMom for the dosing on the 20th. Again, my opinions only; IF Irrel has been on the antibiotics for those 8 days and for at least the past 3 or 4 days (or more) he has NOT had any signs of infection such as swelling, fluctuance (a tense but boggy skin mass or bump which is a sign of an abscess), redness of the skin or drainage; most likely you could stop the antibiotics. If you wanted to simply set a time-frame for discontinuing the antibiotics but to not so so immediately, 10 days of being on the antibiotics with being free of any signs of infection for what would be more than 5 days should be fine as well! IF Irrel has developed an infection in the bone itself which would be broken remnants of the radius and/or ulna, the SMZ/TMP will not treat this adequately anyway. Removal or relatively long-term antibiotics of a different sort is required!

5) As far as the inquiry about getting Irrel neutered; I am not certain why they mentioned this unless they thought perhaps that if Irrel was neutered, it might decrease his activity level. I am not certain that if this was their rationale, it would be any more than a crap shoot!

Also, Irrel is an NR and his destiny is not in the trees but in your home and with your loving care! He is currently very active and that is a good sign unto itself but it also demonstrates that within the restrictions of captivity (which he needs), he is quite functional and I personally don't see why a possible decrease in activity that might be "gained" from this second surgical procedure would be worth doing! Just find out why they suggested this and have some time to think about it and post this in Irrel's thread.

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Hi Sam the Squirrel, the person that put me in contact with this vet is a fellow squirrel nut that does anesthesia for this vet. Both this person and the vet office assured me that they would not be taking him. Take that for what it’s worth because I don’t know how to really, really know. I say vet office because unfortunately I have not yet been able to speak personally to this new vet as they are out today, however my contact called and did speak with them. They had me call the office to set the appointment for Monday afternoon and without telling them they already knew it was for an “exotic” so he did give them a heads up. As to his experience level on squirrels and at this level, because of where we live I can only assume low. That may not necessarily make them a bad choice however, more will reveal itself at a face to face. Obviously I would love a vet that specializes in squirrels but that’s probably not going to happen around here. While I’m not going to knock on every door, if I have an opportunity to have someone local that is competent look at him I feel I can hear their opinion. Please don’t think that I’m just walking into any vet, putting him on the counter and asking someone to check him out. That said I appreciate more than you know reinforcing the caution factor when dealing with a unknown vet. An out of state visit won’t be ruled out though.
As of now, unless someone has better suggestions I’m planning to keep him on the antibiotics till Monday. That’s when the new appointment is scheduled for. He just lost his scab for the first time on the area that got infected. I just want to keep things status quo and not have things blow up and go backwards over the weekend. He has been on the antibiotics since 9/20 when Crittermom was so kindly to help us out.
After the vet tech spoke with the vet is when the neuter question got raised. I believe he heard “male” “pet” and they were under the assumption that we would be doing surgery as in opening and cleaning/inspecting (again already told them it will more than likely be more involved than that) and since he would already be out it would be a prime opportunity as to not do it in a separate procedure and induce more stress if I was already planning to have it done. She also did say that one reason would be for possible aggression that any animal especially with testosterone may have. I was just curious as I’m not necessarily opposed to it however I’m not usually looking for an unnecessary procedure to be done either. I know Crittermom suggested that they have a “testy” period at around mating age but they usually come out of it. It is not something I’ve read much about on here or heard it suggested, but have only had a passing thought because you hear about it all the time in cats and dogs. Again not something I had planned to peruse but was curious about the opinions here.326025

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Sam the Squirrel, the person that put me in contact with this vet is a fellow squirrel nut that does anesthesia for this vet. Both this person and the vet office assured me that they would not be taking him. Take that for what it’s worth because I don’t know how to really, really know. I say vet office because unfortunately I have not yet been able to speak personally to this new vet as they are out today, however my contact called and did speak with them. They had me call the office to set the appointment for Monday afternoon and without telling them they already knew it was for an “exotic” so he did give them a heads up. As to his experience level on squirrels and at this level, because of where we live I can only assume low. That may not necessarily make them a bad choice however, more will reveal itself at a face to face. Obviously I would love a vet that specializes in squirrels but that’s probably not going to happen around here. While I’m not going to knock on every door, if I have an opportunity to have someone local that is competent look at him I feel I can hear their opinion. Please don’t think that I’m just walking into any vet, putting him on the counter and asking someone to check him out. That said I appreciate more than you know reinforcing the caution factor when dealing with a unknown vet. An out of state visit won’t be ruled out though.
As of now, unless someone has better suggestions I’m planning to keep him on the antibiotics till Monday. That’s when the new appointment is scheduled for. He just lost his scab for the first time on the area that got infected. I just want to keep things status quo and not have things blow up and go backwards over the weekend. He has been on the antibiotics since 9/20 when Crittermom was so kindly to help us out.
After the vet tech spoke with the vet is when the neuter question got raised. I believe he heard “male” “pet” and they were under the assumption that we would be doing surgery as in opening and cleaning/inspecting (again already told them it will more than likely be more involved than that) and since he would already be out it would be a prime opportunity as to not do it in a separate procedure and induce more stress if I was already planning to have it done. She also did say that one reason would be for possible aggression that any animal especially with testosterone may have. I was just curious as I’m not necessarily opposed to it however I’m not usually looking for an unnecessary procedure to be done either. I know Crittermom suggested that they have a “testy” period at around mating age but they usually come out of it. It is not something I’ve read much about on here or heard it suggested, but have only had a passing thought because you hear about it all the time in cats and dogs. Again not something I had planned to peruse but was curious about the opinions here.

Thanks Shellysfriend! Please keep on with Irrel's updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Sadachara]

326012
Irrel is doing very well. He is active, has a good appetite and is gaining weight every day! His leg is steadily improving. I have a vet that agreed to see him, however this is through a new to me contact and I have yet to speak with this vet personally. They were out of the office today so hopefully tomorrow I can have a conversation and possibly set an appointment. Also the hypochlorous acid solution that Sadachara recommended finally showed up today. Thank you for asking and thinking of Irrel!

Let us know how the hypochlorous goes. But you may find almost miraculous improvements with it.

We use it all around the house here, including for personal medical use. My daughter had an ear piercing become highly inflamed and we had her 'dip' her ear lobe into HOCL 3x a day. My wife still insisted on taking her to the doctor. After the doctor examined her she said 'Whatever you are doing is working, there isn't anything I can add to that.'.. I explained it was HOCL and she said to just roll with it, as that is what is used by body piercing and tattoo companies to reduce/eliminate topical infections and she approves of it.

[Shellysfriend]

Let us know how the hypochlorous goes. But you may find almost miraculous improvements with it.

We use it all around the house here, including for personal medical use. My daughter had an ear piercing become highly inflamed and we had her 'dip' her ear lobe into HOCL 3x a day. My wife still insisted on taking her to the doctor. After the doctor examined her she said 'Whatever you are doing is working, there isn't anything I can add to that.'.. I explained it was HOCL and she said to just roll with it, as that is what is used by body piercing and tattoo companies to reduce/eliminate topical infections and she approves of it.
I had drenched it right before the scab came off, I think he actually took the scab off himself but it was ready. Right after I saw it I soaked it again with it. Unfortunately 2 minutes doesn’t happen. Sit still when you want him to is not at all in his plans

[Shellysfriend]

Hello Irrel! Your leg is looking much better!

Thanks for the update Shellysfriend! Please let us know how it goes with the vet.

Also make sure to talk to him First! Ask important questions: like their policy on pet squirrels, if they have experience treating squirrels or other small rodents, if they will release him back to you etc.

I realize it is considerably expensive to do the surgery, but it will give him the best quality of life long term. StepNStone’s Annie had an amputation of her back leg, to the hip bone, done by laser surgery, and her healing was incredible, and she has lived a VERY LONG, happy, energetic, playful and full life! (You can check out her thread https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?45449-My-Annie-(was)-gone. Scroll to the last 8 pages or so to read about and see the before and after surgery. A VERY inspirational and hopeful story)

The possibility of a successful operation to remove the existing bone to the joint may provide the best outcome for him. Decreasing the need for repeated wound care, infections, discomfort etc. and increasing the likelihood he will adapt and learn to get around comfortably and be active. Although I’m NOT a vet. Just my thoughts.

Keep up the cuteness Irrel! ❤️

Thank you for pointing me to this story. I had to read it all. Forgive me for asking, is she still around?

[Sadachara]

I had drenched it right before the scab came off, I think he actually took the scab off himself but it was ready. Right after I saw it I soaked it again with it. Unfortunately 2 minutes doesn’t happen. Sit still when you want him to is not at all in his plans

Even short term contact will help. I'd spray it on a few times a day perhaps. Also for cleaning cages and things, this is exceedingly good - and safe. Keeping the bacterial load down on the items your little friend touches will help the process as well.

According to this study, even 60 seconds works better than anything else;

https://iovs.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2563856

[Tashahaven]

As far as I know…Yes she is!? But SOOOO many others on here have been around every step of the way. And know MUCH better than I do.

Hopefully they will correct me if I’m wrong/mistaken:

Sooooooo SLEEPY! Nighty night! Be back tomorrow

[Shellysfriend]

I’ve been steered away from neutering. Someone told me of a study that when done to juveniles it affects skeletal development and essentially is giving them MBD. It is definitely not worth it to me.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

I’ve been steered away from neutering. Someone told me of a study that when done to juveniles it affects skeletal development and essentially is giving them MBD. It is definitely not worth it to me.

Hi Shelysfriend:
Thanks for checking this out! I just saw no definitive reason for neutering other than that Irrel will already be under anesthesia! in this as you found, there are risks; and not the least of which is that it is another surgical procedure!

Again, I would like to encourage you to discuss removal of only the remaining broken portion of the "forearm" and leave the rest of the extremity extending from the elbow upward to the shoulder and make a "stump" at the end of this (around the elbow). IMHO, I would NOT recommend removal of the entire extremity at the shoulder for several reasons; but retaining some functionality is primary and some functionality is usually far better than none at all! Conserving the remaining upper part of the extremity from the elbow to the shoulder will have some potentially very beneficial functional benefits such helping to hold and stabilize food and to assist with balance and these will most likely be of significant benefit to Irrel! In medicine, be it Veterinary or Human; a conservative approach to debridement and/or amputation is always worth seriously and conscientiously considering!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Tashahaven]

Thanks StS! You are totally right. I forgot it was the front leg. I know they often go to the hip on the rear because if not they will still try to use it and drag and injure it repeatedly. 😬🥰

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Shellysfriend:
While here at work and having a few free moments, I just thought of another possibility that could, if certain structures at the elbow region are still intact; provide even more functionality to Irrel's injured forelimb! IF it appears that the region very close to the elbow where the biceps tendon attaches to the radius (the radius is one of the forearm bones) is still intact, it may be a great option to try also to conserve whatever might be possible to conserve of the remaining forearm also as then (assuming this could be done, of course) Irrel would be able to also flex the remainder of the forearm which would further enhance functionality beyond just conserving the upper portion of the forelimb between the elbow and the shoulder! I would respectfully like to suggest that your surgeon checks out this possibility when Irrel has his appointment!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hi Shellysfriend:
While here at work and having a few free moments, I just thought of another possibility that could, if certain structures at the elbow region are still intact; provide even more functionality to Irrel's injured forelimb! IF it appears that the region very close to the elbow where the biceps tendon attaches to the radius (the radius is one of the forearm bones) is still intact, it may be a great option to try also to conserve whatever might be possible to conserve of the remaining forearm also as then (assuming this could be done, of course) Irrel would be able to also flex the remainder of the forearm which would further enhance functionality beyond just conserving the upper portion of the forelimb between the elbow and the shoulder! I would respectfully like to suggest that your surgeon checks out this possibility when Irrel has his appointment!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Hi Sam the Squirrel, tomorrow is when our appointment is. But beforehand I want to speak with the actual vet themselves to make sure we are on the same page, think we are but… We’ll have to start with seeing if the bone is healthy and what is left that is good and can be worked with. They made it sound like surgery could happen pretty fast, but I want to meet them, have them examine him, and feel out the situation before I commit to anything. I kind of want to hear their unguided opinion before I make too many suggestions or ask too many questions. But then I will certainly ask away! This has been quite the ordeal, I hope for Irrel’s sake that this works out and gets resolved soon and that this hasn’t drawn on to long. Before the infection things looked so good, and it’s not terrible now but I just hope that I didn’t cause any extra by waiting too long. Irrel and I would like to thank everyone that has contributed here and ALL suggestions, popular or not! He’s my not as little as he was trooper!326040

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Sam the Squirrel, tomorrow is when our appointment is. But beforehand I want to speak with the actual vet themselves to make sure we are on the same page, think we are but… We’ll have to start with seeing if the bone is healthy and what is left that is good and can be worked with. They made it sound like surgery could happen pretty fast, but I want to meet them, have them examine him, and feel out the situation before I commit to anything. I kind of want to hear their unguided opinion before I make too many suggestions or ask too many questions. But then I will certainly ask away! This has been quite the ordeal, I hope for Irrel’s sake that this works out and gets resolved soon and that this hasn’t drawn on to long. Before the infection things looked so good, and it’s not terrible now but I just hope that I didn’t cause any extra by waiting too long. Irrel and I would like to thank everyone that has contributed here and ALL suggestions, popular or not! He’s my not as little as he was trooper!

Hi Shellysfriend and thanks for posting the great news! Imho, you have the right strategy in talking with the actual Vet and getting his suggestions and recommendations and please also thoroughly interview him as well! You do have the right and physicians, both for humans and animals expect that the patient/client will be an partner in formulating a treatment plan based upon as clear and definitive a diagnosis as is possible!

Thanks also for the photo of handsome little Irrel. He looks great! Please let us know what transpired tomorrow and please keep on updating Irrel's thread!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Irrel says hi everyone! Things went pretty good at the doctors today. They tried to get some X-rays but Irrel didn’t want his picture taken. We are scheduled for a closer exam next week as they want to put him under so they can get the X-rays and manipulate the area and see what they’re working with. If needed at that time while he’s under we can go deeper. Our discussion ranged from doing nothing to removing the forearm at the elbow and anything in between. X-rays should answer quite a bit but unfortunately if surgery is required the whole answer might not be available until you’re there. Part of the delay is to put him under they weren’t exactly sure on best practices for squirrels. They want to do some checking/ asking. One of the people I believe they were going to ask happens to be who sent me there! At least visually they thought the infection is at bay for now but obviously we don’t know if it’s in the bone or the full extent either. We have discontinued the antibiotics but are continuing the probiotics for another week. They said to continue treatment topically as we are.
The subject of neutering was brought up and when I explained a few reasons why I didn’t want to they were very open and agreeable. They did say that premature spaying and neutering even in cats and dogs leads to a lot of problems later, and it’s still done regularly almost industry wide!
After about 15 minutes of being home he was still glued to the back corner of his carrier. I pried him out and put him on his jungle gym tree and he went back to his old self pretty quickly. I kind of figured he’d be trying harder than usual to put squirrel droppings in dads coffee for a while!
I’m watching his weight also. The last 3 days he’s been stuck at 606~605 grams. He’s never gone more than a day without gaining which I could never say wasn’t possibly a weighing error or just a downer day. His formula feedings are a little up and down lately but he is eating homemade HHB and some veggies. Hes still super active so I think he’s alright though.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Irrel says hi everyone! Things went pretty good at the doctors today. They tried to get some X-rays but Irrel didn’t want his picture taken. We are scheduled for a closer exam next week as they want to put him under so they can get the X-rays and manipulate the area and see what they’re working with. If needed at that time while he’s under we can go deeper. Our discussion ranged from doing nothing to removing the forearm at the elbow and anything in between. X-rays should answer quite a bit but unfortunately if surgery is required the whole answer might not be available until you’re there. Part of the delay is to put him under they weren’t exactly sure on best practices for squirrels. They want to do some checking/ asking. One of the people I believe they were going to ask happens to be who sent me there! At least visually they thought the infection is at bay for now but obviously we don’t know if it’s in the bone or the full extent either. We have discontinued the antibiotics but are continuing the probiotics for another week. They said to continue treatment topically as we are.
The subject of neutering was brought up and when I explained a few reasons why I didn’t want to they were very open and agreeable. They did say that premature spaying and neutering even in cats and dogs leads to a lot of problems later, and it’s still done regularly almost industry wide!
After about 15 minutes of being home he was still glued to the back corner of his carrier. I pried him out and put him on his jungle gym tree and he went back to his old self pretty quickly. I kind of figured he’d be trying harder than usual to put squirrel droppings in dads coffee for a while!
I’m watching his weight also. The last 3 days he’s been stuck at 606~605 grams. He’s never gone more than a day without gaining which I could never say wasn’t possibly a weighing error or just a downer day. His formula feedings are a little up and down lately but he is eating homemade HHB and some veggies. Hes still super active so I think he’s alright though.

Hello to you, Irrel! You are a loved little Squirrel! And hello again to you, Shellysfriend! Your comments regarding Irrel's Vet sound very encouraging. I'm glad the neutering issue has been put to rest! An inhaled anesthetic agent such as isoflurane is commonly used to sedate Squirrels (and many other species) so that a more complex or potentially uncomfortable exam can be facilitated. Most likely your Vet uses a digital x-ray machine and if so, would you please post Irrel's x-ray films on this thread. The digital films can be uploaded very easily. They would be very interesting! I'm sure that the visit was stressful for Irrel and I'm glad he returned to his "old self" shortly after arriving home! You mentioned "homemade" HHB. What are those or are you using the recipe that Henry's provides for making blocks?

Thanks again for your love and conscientious care of little Irrel!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hello to you, Irrel! You are a loved little Squirrel! And hello again to you, Shellysfriend! Your comments regarding Irrel's Vet sound very encouraging. I'm glad the neutering issue has been put to rest! An inhaled anesthetic agent such as isoflurane is commonly used to sedate Squirrels (and many other species) so that a more complex or potentially uncomfortable exam can be facilitated. Most likely your Vet uses a digital x-ray machine and if so, would you please post Irrel's x-ray films on this thread. The digital films can be uploaded very easily. They would be very interesting! I'm sure that the visit was stressful for Irrel and I'm glad he returned to his "old self" shortly after arriving home! You mentioned "homemade" HHB. What are those or are you using the recipe that Henry's provides for making blocks?

Thanks again for your love and conscientious care of little Irrel!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
I certainly will post the X-ray if I can. The best I can tell it’s the Henry’s recipe, however I don’t believe they post it anymore. I will type that up later today when I have more time.
Right now I do have a question/ problem. I’m going to have a couple days where I will be out of 20/50. He’s on 50/50 Esbilac dry(not goat) and 20/50. I’ve seen about using heavy whipping cream( not the ice cream topping) and or yogurt. Or I’ve got 32/40 from some rehab bunnies that I’m aware is not the proper formulation however I do have whey protein from Henry’s. Could the 32/40 be supplemented with the whey protein for temporary use? Just trying to keep him as close to possible diet wise as where he’s been. He did have weight gain again this morning.

[CritterMom]

It isn't so much the formulation with the fat/protein ratio; it is that the protein source they chose to use in the 32/40 (casein) is very difficult for the little babies, for which is is supposedly formulated (supposed to be newborn through 4 weeks) to digest. I have horrible memories of the board being flooded with people from all over watching their little babies die from terrible bloat from the stuff. It got to the point where we actually, with the help from one of the rehabbers on the board, developed a protocol to try to save the ones whose finders came here soon enough.

I don't think that older babies would not be affected this way, and I can also tell you that there are rehabbers out there who use the 32/40 for their pinkies and swear they have never seen a problem. In my book, I am not capable of holding the hand of dozens and dozens of people watching their little scrap of life die from the food they gave them and then brush it off. I will feed 32/40 to a pinkie when h*ll freezes over.

But Irrel is not a baby - he is a big chunk of a boy and my first suggestion would be to change the formula to where instead of 50/50, it is about 75% Esbilac and 25% a mixture of the 20/50 you have left and the 32/40. He will then be getting very little of the 32/40, and as I said, the babies having issues with it were TEENY.

And yes, you can boost the formula with EITHER Fox Valley Ultraboost, or the addition of heavy cream and whole milk (full fat) yogurt. Like any other dietary change, you want to make the additions slowly. So you are currently mixing 2 parts water and 1 part powder to make the formula. The maximum of add ins would be 1 part heavy cream and 1/2 part yogurt - but that is something you would work up to SLOWLY. If you do this, by all means, get a flavored yogurt! I always used Stoneyfield Yobaby. It is made for infants, has no fruit lumps (don't go through syringe), is full fat, and tastes good. Vanilla was popular, as was blueberry but I never found a flavor the baby didn't like. And once you get your shipment of 20/50, you can continue to boost it if you like.

[Shellysfriend]

It isn't so much the formulation with the fat/protein ratio; it is that the protein source they chose to use in the 32/40 (casein) is very difficult for the little babies, for which is is supposedly formulated (supposed to be newborn through 4 weeks) to digest. I have horrible memories of the board being flooded with people from all over watching their little babies die from terrible bloat from the stuff. It got to the point where we actually, with the help from one of the rehabbers on the board, developed a protocol to try to save the ones whose finders came here soon enough.

I don't think that older babies would not be affected this way, and I can also tell you that there are rehabbers out there who use the 32/40 for their pinkies and swear they have never seen a problem. In my book, I am not capable of holding the hand of dozens and dozens of people watching their little scrap of life die from the food they gave them and then brush it off. I will feed 32/40 to a pinkie when h*ll freezes over.

But Irrel is not a baby - he is a big chunk of a boy and my first suggestion would be to change the formula to where instead of 50/50, it is about 75% Esbilac and 25% a mixture of the 20/50 you have left and the 32/40. He will then be getting very little of the 32/40, and as I said, the babies having issues with it were TEENY.

And yes, you can boost the formula with EITHER Fox Valley Ultraboost, or the addition of heavy cream and whole milk (full fat) yogurt. Like any other dietary change, you want to make the additions slowly. So you are currently mixing 2 parts water and 1 part powder to make the formula. The maximum of add ins would be 1 part heavy cream and 1/2 part yogurt - but that is something you would work up to SLOWLY. If you do this, by all means, get a flavored yogurt! I always used Stoneyfield Yobaby. It is made for infants, has no fruit lumps (don't go through syringe), is full fat, and tastes good. Vanilla was popular, as was blueberry but I never found a flavor the baby didn't like. And once you get your shipment of 20/50, you can continue to boost it if you like.
Thank you Crittermom! Will do. Thank you for the explanation on 32/40 also. Apparently my brain wasn’t functioning anyway as I think I had the protein/fat ratio backwards as the 20/50 would be less protein more fat anyway.

[Shellysfriend]

The recipe that I’ve been using is:
3 cups nuts
150 grams whey protein isolate(from Henry’s)
3 eggs
2/3 cup ground rodent block(I’ve been using Mazuri)
2 tsp vanilla
2 tsp aluminum free baking powder
33 grams of Henry’s Healthy Vitamins
It calls for 1-2 tablespoons of water however I usually grind up a cup or so of vegetables and maybe a little apple or banana and use that as the liquid. In the event I get it too wet I just add a little more ground rodent block or wheat flour.
For the wilds I usually add some sunflower kernels, coconut, they love cherries too but for Irrel I haven’t really been modifying much though.
I bake at 205 for 90 minutes and then drizzle and spread some melted coconut oil over it.
Cool, use a pizza cutter to slice and then freeze.

[Shellysfriend]

326084326083
These are this morning. I’m not sure but the area is almost looking more filled out. Hopefully it isn’t more infection. When I apply light pressure he doesn’t complain so I think it’s ok yet. He’s gaining weight and is himself. I’m still keeping up with the topical hypochlorous. The 20/50 did show up and if things were normal I’m not sure I’d need to continue boosting his formula with yogurt and heavy whipping cream, however I plan on continuing at a low rate just to make sure he’s in prime shape for his exam and possible surgery next week.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

These are this morning. I’m not sure but the area is almost looking more filled out. Hopefully it isn’t more infection. When I apply light pressure he doesn’t complain so I think it’s ok yet. He’s gaining weight and is himself. I’m still keeping up with the topical hypochlorous. The 20/50 did show up and if things were normal I’m not sure I’d need to continue boosting his formula with yogurt and heavy whipping cream, however I plan on continuing at a low rate just to make sure he’s in prime shape for his exam and possible surgery next week.

Thanks for the update on Irrel! The injury site looks very good! Great job! Please keep on with the updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Well, I guess not so good. It is still infected. I just held it drain again. I’m pretty mad at myself because I didn’t think to take a sample until it was too late. I only got a tiny amount when I tried again to possibly get a sample. I’ll call the vet tomorrow. I have an appointment next Wednesday but suddenly that feels an awful long ways away.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Well, I guess not so good. It is still infected. I just held it drain again. I’m pretty mad at myself because I didn’t think to take a sample until it was too late. I only got a tiny amount when I tried again to possibly get a sample. I’ll call the vet tomorrow. I have an appointment next Wednesday but suddenly that feels an awful long ways away.

Hi Shellysfriend:
I believe that your plan for notifying the Vet tomorrow is the best way to initially address this issue! Just to mention this however; not all drainage has the same implications and more to the point, not all drainage is a sign of infection. Pus, which is classically whitish (can also be more yellow or even brownish), cloudy, usually somewhat thick and often has a "bad" odor and is typical of an infection. There can be other types of drainage including Sanguinous drainage which is bloody or blood tinged drainage and Serous Drainage which is clear and is often somewhat faintly yellowish. Serous drainage is usually associated with the healing process and in itself, is not a sign of infection! Serous drainage can also be found mixed with blood which is call serosanguinous drainage. The presence of blood or blood mixed with serous fluid from a wound site is commonly found in relatively acute wounds or may be found anew if there is further injury to a once healing and stable injury.

What was the appearance of the drainage you noticed at Irrels wound site? Was it clear, cloudy, bloody or whatever? Did it have an odor? Ordinarily we would be asking if you had any other antibiotics beside the SMZ-TMP that was being given to Irrel but you have the rare advantage of having a Vet for your Squirrel and your Vet will hopefully be able to provide antibiotics for you IF the drainage suggests infection! Also, if antibiotics are warranted, the antibiotics will still need to be diluted and prepared in an appropriate concentration for a relatively tiny Squirrel and most Vets don't do this "in-house" and it would be up to a pharmacy to prepare this and not all pharmacies are able to so. If your Vet is experienced in the dilution and dosing of medication for Squirrels or pet rats, he may simply give you a prescription for one or two antibiotic tablets (I would recommend at least two or three tablets or capsules so you will have a "backup") with mixing and dosing instructions. Also, our Admins here on TSB are very familiar with mixing and dosing many common antibiotics and most likely they could be of great help you with this if needed!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hi Shellysfriend:
I believe that your plan for notifying the Vet tomorrow is the best way to initially address this issue! Just to mention this however; not all drainage has the same implications and more to the point, not all drainage is a sign of infection. Pus, which is classically whitish (can also be more yellow or even brownish), cloudy, usually somewhat thick and often has a "bad" odor and is typical of an infection. There can be other types of drainage including Sanguinous drainage which is bloody or blood tinged drainage and Serous Drainage which is clear and is often somewhat faintly yellowish. Serous drainage is usually associated with the healing process and in itself, is not a sign of infection! Serous drainage can also be found mixed with blood which is call serosanguinous drainage. The presence of blood or blood mixed with serous fluid from a wound site is commonly found in relatively acute wounds or may be found anew if there is further injury to a once healing and stable injury.

What was the appearance of the drainage you noticed at Irrels wound site? Was it clear, cloudy, bloody or whatever? Did it have an odor? Ordinarily we would be asking if you had any other antibiotics beside the SMZ-TMP that was being given to Irrel but you have the rare advantage of having a Vet for your Squirrel and your Vet will hopefully be able to provide antibiotics for you IF the drainage suggests infection! Also, if antibiotics are warranted, the antibiotics will still need to be diluted and prepared in an appropriate concentration for a relatively tiny Squirrel and most Vets don't do this "in-house" and it would be up to a pharmacy to prepare this and not all pharmacies are able to so. If your Vet is experienced in the dilution and dosing of medication for Squirrels or pet rats, he may simply give you a prescription for one or two antibiotic tablets (I would recommend at least two or three tablets or capsules so you will have a "backup") with mixing and dosing instructions. Also, our Admins here on TSB are very familiar with mixing and dosing many common antibiotics and most likely they could be of great help you with this if needed!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Hi Sam the Squirrel, it was unfortunately thick white puss, just like the last time. I got quite a bit out, not as much as a couple weeks ago but still quite a bit. I thought of it too late but with a sample they can do a test to determine which antibiotic is most effective. I got a tiny amount after I thought of it but I’m not sure it is enough.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Sam the Squirrel, it was unfortunately thick white puss, just like the last time. I got quite a bit out, not as much as a couple weeks ago but still quite a bit. I thought of it too late but with a sample they can do a test to determine which antibiotic is most effective. I got a tiny amount after I thought of it but I’m not sure it is enough.

Hi Shellysfriend:
I'm so sorry! This seems like further evidence indicating that this wound needs to be surgically debrided, irrigated and then closed (if at all possible) with only healthy tissue remaining.

Only a very little drainage is needed to perform the two common tests utilized in evaluating the infection so most likely, there will be enough drainage available tomorrow when Irrel will hopefully be seen by the Vet for evaluation and to obtain a specimen of the drainage to send to the lab.

There are two commonly utilized tests with wound drainage, one being a Gram Stain and the other a Culture and Sensitivity (C & S). They are used in the same context but for different purposes. A gram Stain can be done in an office if the practitioner has a microscope and the means to prepare the specimen by Gram Staining for observation under a microscope. The purposes of the Gram Strain are among others; to see if there are any bacteria or fungus present in the specimen and to get an idea as what these might be. As far as bacteria goes, a clinician can get an idea from the Gram Stain as what the bacteria may be and also an idea as to what might constitute a reasonable initial antibiotic but that is all but they can be beneficial for guiding initial therapy. Gram stains that can be done at the point of service are often very beneficial in guiding initial treatment as they take only a short while to perform.

In order to actually identify what the actual bacteria are that are present in the drainage and what antibiotics the bacteria are sensitive to; a C & S is utilized. This test is done in a specialized laboratory and the specimen will need to be transported there. Usually, a Gram Stain is also done at that time as well and that can be made available within an hour or less. A C & S is where the bacteria are actually grown out on a special plate and usually requires a minimum of 24 hours just to see if any any bacteria are growing and then 48- 72 hours or sometimes more to be able to identify the bacteria and determine what antibiotics the bacteria are sensitive to (those that are likely to kill the bacteria).

Please keep on with the updates!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

326124326122326123326121
Irrel says hi everyone. He had his vet appointment today. He was put under to take X-rays. They started with an injection and then did use isoflorane. They did open up and clean what was there and take a sample for culture however they said there wasn’t much there. They want a better sample if it does blow up again. This was surprising to me because I drained it last Thursday night and again on Saturday night it had already swelled to the point it was about to burst so I helped it so it didn’t rupture in his cage or nest. They said the muscle tissue had made a decent pad for the bone. The thought right now is to leave it be, wait for the culture and or a better sample and reculture then, and see if it can be handled with antibiotics matching the infection. The X-rays it sounds as if they will be shared with a special species department, which they have been conversing with about the anesthesia and medication to use already. The plus to me since they admittedly don’t work on these guys much is that they are willing to stop and ask. Irrel was pretty luped up when we got home. They had gave him pain medication since they were digging in the wound. He couldn’t walk right or sit up right for a while. After a long nap he still had problems when he’d jump to me he wouldn’t stick. I thought he just didn’t have full operation of his claws yet. Now tonight he still has problems so I just looked closer and very unfortunately I think the vet did me a favor and trimmed his claws. If anyone is ever thinking of this please don’t! This is dangerous, he thinks he can still jump and he can, and he does, but he doesn’t stick. Which then he slips and either lands hard or at the least risks reinjureing his leg. Had I known I would have asked them not to. Although my neck appreciates it those little claws need to hurry up and grow!
So now it’s the wait and see game again. Anyway Irrel wanted me to pass on the update and let you know he sends his love!

[Diggie's Friend]

You're right; they need their claws to climb. Their claws reach into their outer ears when they get an itch or get a bug up in there.

Scratching with their claws during their fur molt, which goes on for much of the year, makes the process bearable.

As for chewing on a wound that is healing; a homemade cone can be made for a squirrel which prevents them doing this.

https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?40466-Making-an-E-Collar

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

326124326122326123326121
Irrel says hi everyone. He had his vet appointment today. He was put under to take X-rays. They started with an injection and then did use isoflorane. They did open up and clean what was there and take a sample for culture however they said there wasn’t much there. They want a better sample if it does blow up again. This was surprising to me because I drained it last Thursday night and again on Saturday night it had already swelled to the point it was about to burst so I helped it so it didn’t rupture in his cage or nest. They said the muscle tissue had made a decent pad for the bone. The thought right now is to leave it be, wait for the culture and or a better sample and reculture then, and see if it can be handled with antibiotics matching the infection. The X-rays it sounds as if they will be shared with a special species department, which they have been conversing with about the anesthesia and medication to use already. The plus to me since they admittedly don’t work on these guys much is that they are willing to stop and ask. Irrel was pretty luped up when we got home. They had gave him pain medication since they were digging in the wound. He couldn’t walk right or sit up right for a while. After a long nap he still had problems when he’d jump to me he wouldn’t stick. I thought he just didn’t have full operation of his claws yet. Now tonight he still has problems so I just looked closer and very unfortunately I think the vet did me a favor and trimmed his claws. If anyone is ever thinking of this please don’t! This is dangerous, he thinks he can still jump and he can, and he does, but he doesn’t stick. Which then he slips and either lands hard or at the least risks reinjureing his leg. Had I known I would have asked them not to. Although my neck appreciates it those little claws need to hurry up and grow!
So now it’s the wait and see game again. Anyway Irrel wanted me to pass on the update and let you know he sends his love!

Thanks for the update and for posting the x-ray films, Shellysfriend! I'm glad that the Vet is being so thorough with the obtaining this x-ray study, culturing the wound site and also for referring Irrel's case to a "special species department!"

It's too bad that they clipped Irrel's claws but probably this is one thing that they did not really "think over" because most likely, their practice consist of the usual canine and feline Veterinary patients and when a dog arrives, a Vet's usual good customer service is to trim a dog's claws if that is needed free of charge! That same nice bit of canine care is not so good for Squirrels! As this Vet is obviously willing to see Squirrels and also seems to be very conscientious as well as interested in the particular care of little Irrel; may I suggest that you inform the Vet that you appreciate their excellent customer service and care of Irrel but you simply want to point out that trimming a Squirrel's claws can potentially result in injury to the Squirrel because they instinctively rely on their claws being sharp and they can slip from an object they jumped to or climbed up on and become injured! I'm sure that this Vet would appreciate knowing this and that knowledge would also help prevent the same problems you and Irrel are facing with the after-effects of clipping his claws from occurring with another Squirrel!

Again, please keep on with the updates and tell he is loved from near and far away!

Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

326178Hi all, Irrel is doing well. The vet called last week with the results from the culture and did prescribe Baytril. He mixed it with pina colada mix but Irrel still doesn’t seem to appreciate it. It’s a pretty good fight to get him to take it. There has not been any sign of infection though. It I’m happy to say his claws are fairly sharp again so he’s got traction again. This week he has tapered way off in formula consumption but is eating his blocks, veggies and water.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

326178Hi all, Irrel is doing well. The vet called last week with the results from the culture and did prescribe Baytril. He mixed it with pina colada mix but Irrel still doesn’t seem to appreciate it. It’s a pretty good fight to get him to take it. There has not been any sign of infection though. It I’m happy to say his claws are fairly sharp again so he’s got traction again. This week he has tapered way off in formula consumption but is eating his blocks, veggies and water.

Hi Shellysfriend:
Thanks you so much for the update on Irrel! Did you ever hear back from the "Special Species Department?" What are the plans for the injured extremity beyond treatment with Baytril?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[CritterMom]

Hi Shellysfriend:
Thanks you so much for the update on Irrel! Did you ever hear back from the "Special Species Department?" What are the plans for the injured extremity beyond treatment with Baytril?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

May I suggest using grenadine instead of the pina colada mix? Still in the booze section - it is a syrup made from pomegranates, though most of what they sell has just artificial flavoring, which is just fine. It is what colors and flavors Cosmopolitans. It is very strongly flavored and it is a flavor they like.

[Shellysfriend]

Hi Shellysfriend:
Thanks you so much for the update on Irrel! Did you ever hear back from the "Special Species Department?" What are the plans for the injured extremity beyond treatment with Baytril?
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel
Hi Sam the Squirrel
The “Special Species Department” is who the vet has been referring with since they don’t see many squirrels. They worked with them for the anesthesia and discussed the X-rays and possible treatment options. Right now, the plan is still to let it heal on its own, treating with antibiotics geared toward the type of infection he had. Only if we need to will more bone be taken.

[Shellysfriend]

May I suggest using grenadine instead of the pina colada mix? Still in the booze section - it is a syrup made from pomegranates, though most of what they sell has just artificial flavoring, which is just fine. It is what colors and flavors Cosmopolitans. It is very strongly flavored and it is a flavor they like.

Thanks Crittermom, I will give that a shot! I’m not sure if the flavor is what he doesn’t like or if it’s that he’s being told to eat it! Either way it’s a struggle.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Sam the Squirrel
The “Special Species Department” is who the vet has been referring with since they don’t see many squirrels. They worked with them for the anesthesia and discussed the X-rays and possible treatment options. Right now, the plan is still to let it heal on its own, treating with antibiotics geared toward the type of infection he had. Only if we need to will more bone be taken.

Sounds like a very good plan! Please say hello to Irrel for me and please keep on with the updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

326297Irrel says hello all! He finished his antibiotics 11/1. So far all seems well. He’s now just over 18 weeks old. He got as big as 769 grams but has tapered back to the 750’s. I thought we were about done with formula a couple weeks ago, he was pretty much refusing it at times. Now he’s back up to 30ml’s both morning and evening. His claws have been getting horribly sharp and now he’s got the weight behind them so boy do they dig! I tried the sandpaper ramp in his cage but he just tends to jump wherever he wants to go so I started placing it vertical outside the cage and “dragging” him down it. He doesn’t care for that but it helps. He’s still very active and seems healthy.

[supersquirrelgirl]

I love it....a big buffed fox boy. I'm really happy for you! Thank you for caring for him.

SSG

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Irrel says hello all! He finished his antibiotics 11/1. So far all seems well. He’s now just over 18 weeks old. He got as big as 769 grams but has tapered back to the 750’s. I thought we were about done with formula a couple weeks ago, he was pretty much refusing it at times. Now he’s back up to 30ml’s both morning and evening. His claws have been getting horribly sharp and now he’s got the weight behind them so boy do they dig! I tried the sandpaper ramp in his cage but he just tends to jump wherever he wants to go so I started placing it vertical outside the cage and “dragging” him down it. He doesn’t care for that but it helps. He’s still very active and seems healthy.

Hello Irrel! I'm glad you are doing well! Thanks for your love and care of little Irrel, Shellysfriend! It's not that unusual for a Squirrel to go back to drinking formula if the Squirrel is given the opportunity to do so after it appears that weaning has occurred. I'm glad that you are facilitating, Shellysfriend as formula is good for him and probably comforting as well!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

326422Irrel says Happy Holidays everyone! He’s still slowly healing. We’re treating the wound twice a day yet. He doesn’t really get any nuts so it seems he decided to grow some of his own! Fur growth on his leg and bottom/back of those nuts seems very slow. The end of his nub leg I can understand but down the side of his leg there’s been a patch missing since probably September. It may be that he’s licking or plucking at that area more than I see him do. He’s eating his homemade Henry blocks, probably about 4 on average and occasionally some of the Mazuri and some of his vegetables, a few berries or some apple. He still likes his formula morning and evening and takes anywhere from 4 to 18 ml usually at each. His heaviest weight was in the 760’s and he dropped to the 730’s after we pretty well gave him the run of his room full time unless I’m home which then he pretty well gets the whole house. Now he’s back up into the 740’s. He made his first alternate nest on top of his cage in his carrier and has “camped” there a couple times. He’s super sweet with me and is a joy to keep out of mischief! He got his first Christmas tree but so far prefers the curtains! I did have to resort to very light nail trimming because those claws are murder. He loves to dangle from his hind legs off my arm and fight/wrestle the dad tree. Again happy holidays to all and a special thank you to the helpers here!

[CritterMom]

I was just thinking about you - I am so glad that he is doing well and it sounds as though the training regimen he is putting you through is working, and you are well on your way to being an acceptable human. Amazing what a little tripod squirrel can do when he puts his mind to it!

Happy Holidays to all of you!

[Shellysfriend]

326808Hi everyone, “Rubber of the Irrel” here with an update. He’s now about 890 grams and 8 months old. He about gave up formula again but has decided that he’s still a big baby so he better keep drinking it! He averages about 20-25 ml a day. His leg never quite fully healed but is close. A few weeks ago he injured his back leg on the same side. I’m not sure but I suspect he snagged his claws on something. When I found him he had retreated to his nest and when I approached he came out and went belly up in my arm and stayed there. So instead of having free range of his room during the day he’s been on lockdown in his double critter nation with escape time every morning and evening. I have plans and some supplies for a larger cage, freeing his up for some rehabs possibly. He’s doing quite a bit better with the back leg now, I’d say it’s 80% maybe. He’s definitely a one human squirrel, but super lovey with me. Every morning he crawls from his nest box into my shirt for a heated bath and rubs. Every night after I rub his fur off before bed, he demands rubs in his nest box. If I stop to soon he will come back out and let me know that I wasn’t done!

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Shellysfriend and Irrel:
Thanks for the update! You two are so fortunate to have each other! Irrel is smiling in that photo!

I'm glad Irrel is doing well overall and that his new injury seems to on the mend! With the thought that you suspect Irrel may have gotten a claw snagged on something; a common cause of this is placing towels on the floor of the cage or hanging within the cage that made from terrycloth or the like where there are uncut and relatively large loops of the fabric which tend to catch a claw or even tighten over a toe and restrict its blood flow! If you might be using terrycloth or towels made from similar materials, I would suggest replacing these with Flannel or Fleece towels which will not tend to catch claws or possess loops that may wrap around a toe!
Please keep on with the updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hi STS! No terrycloth here. I hadn’t trimmed his claws in a quite a while. For whatever reason they hadn’t bothered lately. He was getting along fine and I really wasn’t getting tore up much. But I have noticed lately he is getting snagged more. The same shirts I’ve always worn with him, jeans, even his cat tree sometimes. I even noticed it with his fleece on the homemade tree in the picture. In light of this I trimmed the tips on the freshly injured back leg to keep him from injuring it further and plan on spacing trimming out on the other two paws as to not do them all at the same time and have a repeat of the vet incident. You are definitely correct that I’m lucky to have him with me. Who’d a thunk a 2 pound three legged fox squirrel could carry a 160 pound guy through life. He is an amazing gift!

[Mel1959]

Is Irrel eating a rodent block? I know you said that you’re still giving some formula, which is great. When I hear of snagging toenails I worry about MBD, which can affect the movement of their hind legs. Make sure there aren’t any type of bedding materials that he can snag his toenails on.

[Black Squirrel]

In addition to the formula use Teklad 2018 blocks on demand (Small Furry Pet Supply, Amazon) as a base diet. Supplement with Henry's Healthy Blocks plus foods off Henry's diet chart. Teklad blocks are versatile and can be made into "Boo Balls" for picky eaters or ground up and syringe fed like Critical Care.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Shellysfriend:
Even if Irrel did snag one of his claws on something or sustained some other injury to one of his hind limbs; Mel and Black Squirrel have some very valid concerns!
I made the assumption that Irrel's diet was optimal and that he was getting formula in addition to quality Blocks and other healthy foods based upon Henry's pyramid but I should have asked instead of simply assuming! Thanks Mel and Black Squirrel!

Would you please describe Irrel's diet in detail. Ideally, a captive Squirrel should get at least 80% of his nutrition from quality Blocks such as Henry's Healthy Blocks, Teklad 2018 (or 2014 for the more mature aged Squirrels), Mazuri Rat and Mouse Diet or Oxbow Regal Rat Food. Henry's is a concentrated and complete diet and consumption 2 to a maximum of 3 Henry's Blocks should be the daily limit to Henry's Blocks. The other Blocks can be free-fed which means that you can give as much as Irrel cares to eat. Also, at least once a day, please make a very thorough search for stashes, especially if Irrel is being fed Henry's Blocks as these have no preservatives and can spoil very rapidly. Just like with humans; eating a spoiled food can result in serious illness, loss of appetite, diarrhea and dehydration among other problems!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel

[Shellysfriend]

Hi Mel, Black Squirrel, and STS. His diet is 3 HHB a day, as much Mazuri rat and mouse as he wants (which isn’t much, usually just scatters/ burys) veggies and some fruit treats. I’ve never felt that he eats too many veggies. The list that they can have in limited quantities is of course the list he likes best. Since the injury, for good measure I’ve been rolling his HHB in calcium just in case. I ran out of benepack quite a while ago( had him taking it after the antibiotics last fall) and now have gotten some of the Vitality Science Pet Flora that Diggiesfriend suggested. Just started that about a week and a half ago and sprinkle it on a half slice of avocado once a day. Only the last couple months has he gotten one in shell nut every couple weeks.
There has been no decrease in energy or appetite. He hasn’t been putting full weight on it or taking the long jumps he had been, but is increasing both every day. He was having a hard time cleaning his ear on that side but was still able to do it. He still likes wrestling and gets the zoomies, even has been doing the almost kangaroo like kick boxing thing that I so wish I could get on camera. He will still hang like a bat also.
His stashes that consist of the mazuri and some veggies get cleaned out daily and the fleece in his cage every other.
I’m only guessing that his injury was from a snag but have noticed it more lately. Even on fleece (which the core of is still loops). Some of it I wonder maybe because of the missing paw. So he’s a 2 pound fox squirrel with 3 legs. His claws dig deep to support the weight, then he has a direction change with one less paw to pivot on gets caught up a bit. This morning wrestling was another example. Belly up wrestling, he pushed with his back foot on the fleece and twisted, snagged into the fleece.
So one question I have is the recommendation for Henry’s Healthy Blocks are 2-3 a day for a 1 pound squirrel. He’s 890 grams 8 months old so almost 2 pounds. He eats three a day, barely touches the mazuri, eats some vegetables. Should he get more HHB because of his size? I feel like he gets enough, if he was hungry he’d eat his mazuri and more vegetables. I have never been able to find guidelines for larger or fox squirrels specifically.

[SamtheSquirrel2018]

Hi Mel, Black Squirrel, and STS. His diet is 3 HHB a day, as much Mazuri rat and mouse as he wants (which isn’t much, usually just scatters/ burys) veggies and some fruit treats. I’ve never felt that he eats too many veggies. The list that they can have in limited quantities is of course the list he likes best. Since the injury, for good measure I’ve been rolling his HHB in calcium just in case. I ran out of benepack quite a while ago( had him taking it after the antibiotics last fall) and now have gotten some of the Vitality Science Pet Flora that Diggiesfriend suggested. Just started that about a week and a half ago and sprinkle it on a half slice of avocado once a day. Only the last couple months has he gotten one in shell nut every couple weeks.
There has been no decrease in energy or appetite. He hasn’t been putting full weight on it or taking the long jumps he had been, but is increasing both every day. He was having a hard time cleaning his ear on that side but was still able to do it. He still likes wrestling and gets the zoomies, even has been doing the almost kangaroo like kick boxing thing that I so wish I could get on camera. He will still hang like a bat also.
His stashes that consist of the mazuri and some veggies get cleaned out daily and the fleece in his cage every other.
I’m only guessing that his injury was from a snag but have noticed it more lately. Even on fleece (which the core of is still loops). Some of it I wonder maybe because of the missing paw. So he’s a 2 pound fox squirrel with 3 legs. His claws dig deep to support the weight, then he has a direction change with one less paw to pivot on gets caught up a bit. This morning wrestling was another example. Belly up wrestling, he pushed with his back foot on the fleece and twisted, snagged into the fleece.
So one question I have is the recommendation for Henry’s Healthy Blocks are 2-3 a day for a 1 pound squirrel. He’s 890 grams 8 months old so almost 2 pounds. He eats three a day, barely touches the mazuri, eats some vegetables. Should he get more HHB because of his size? I feel like he gets enough, if he was hungry he’d eat his mazuri and more vegetables. I have never been able to find guidelines for larger or fox squirrels specifically.

Thanks Shellysfriend! I believe your assessment as to the cause of Irrel's apparent recent "injury" is correct! Also, in my opinion based upon your recent post; it seems unlikely that Irrel suffers from any nutritional deficiency or inadequacy! It is good to know that Irrel is eating 3 HHBs each day! If he is consuming these in their entirety or very close to this, he is getting a day's nutrition from these 3 blocks alone! Giving more than 3 Henry's Blocks is probably best avoided as these are made as an all inclusive but concentrated food source. It is best to consider HHB as being "maxed out" at 3 blocks per day. The "serving size" as listed on the package is 2 blocks but 3 is fine for a Squirrel Irrel's size but, again; I would recommend limiting the daily HHBs to three! Mazuri Rat and Mouse Diet is a fine choice as additional quality Blocks. Using Henry's pyramid for additional foods is certainly a good strategy. Captive Squirrels should have at least 80% of their diet consisting of Quality Blocks! When using the Food Pyramid, favor the foods on the lower levels of the pyramid (toward the base) and at the lowest level (the most favored food) are Blocks. Rare treats are also fine and kind but not necessary and treats should never be a major constituent of the diet. If Irrel might want some additional formula if you should ever be inclined to offer it; this too is fine!

Please keep on with the Irrel updates!
Regards,
SamtheSquirrel